Mileage Tax to Replace Gas Tax ?

[cowman]

Does that sign really say "No Cameras, No Video"? Land of the free, my ***. That's the kind of thing that oppressive regimes do in public areas, not free countries.

Is that even enforceable?

 

[Everskyward]

I found out that BayAreaFasTrak is pretty efficient. I have a physical transponder that I leave in San Francisco and put in my rental car when I visit. The transponder is registered to the car I own in Colorado.

Last spring I drove my own car out to San Francisco. I had to cross the Golden Gate Bridge to get there. The GG Bridge is now unstaffed. They charge you from the transponder or send the bill to the license plate owner. I didn't have the transponder with me when I crossed the bridge but the system was smart enough to associate my out-of-state license plate with my FasTrack account, which was debited for that crossing.

 

[Palmpilot]

My point is that taxing us more doesn't prevent warming.

Why make it a hidden tax?

Beats the heck out of me.

 

[Bob Noel]

My point is that taxing us more doesn't prevent warming.

Why make it a hidden tax?

Why? In order to sneak it by the stupid voteres.

 

[deonb]

How efficient can it be when it doesn't take into account folks from out of state?

Why would you not be billing people out of state? I know WA has no problem sending toll bills to visitors from other states - and even to Canada.

As well as the other way around - I go to Canada often and also get a pay-by-mail every few weeks to pay for the Canadian tolls. I have no Canadian transponders or any other Canadian ... anything.

Over here it's also completely optional to have a toll transponder in your vehicle even for locals. If you have one, you get a discount, but if you don't, you still get billed just the same. Doesn't matter whether you're in-state or out-of state. If you don't pay it, WA of course can't arrest you, but then it goes to collections and you'll get a credit record ding.

Unless you thought your state won't release vehicle registration records to other states... ?

 

[Bob Noel]

Why would you not be billing people out of state? I know WA has no problem sending toll bills to visitors from other states - and even to Canada.

As well as the other way around - I go to Canada often and also get a pay-by-mail every few weeks to pay for the Canadian tolls. I have no Canadian transponders or any other Canadian ... anything.

Over here it's also completely optional to have a toll transponder in your vehicle even for locals. If you have one, you get a discount, but if you don't, you still get billed just the same. Doesn't matter whether you're in-state or out-of state. If you don't pay it, WA of course can't arrest you, but then it goes to collections and you'll get a credit record ding.

Unless you thought your state won't release vehicle registration records to other states... ?

Didn't say that.

How does the out-of-state driver get a transponder?

 

[deonb]

Didn't say that.

How does the out-of-state driver get a transponder?

Doesnt need one. Just needs a license plate.

Like I mentioned, even locals here dont need a transponder. You just get a discount for having one. Without it you're billed by your license plate.

 

[RJM62]

My firm once tried to do business with the MTA on a contract. Our first bid, and it was competitively priced based on our work and the word of our partners. We were told that it was attractive but because we weren't a "regular bidder" we wouldn't get the contract. It wasn't worth the fight, but we do know that the winning bidder was ~1.5 times as much money as we bid. This was for professional consulting services.

The MTA actually managed to get white Helvetica type on a black background registered as a trademark because that's the style they use on their platform signs. And yes, they do aggressively enforce it.

Does that sign really say "No Cameras, No Video"? Land of the free, my ***. That's the kind of thing that oppressive regimes do in public areas, not free countries.

Yes, it does say that. But the rule is neither enforced nor enforceable. It was one of the many knee-jerk fascist rules that came in the wake of 9/11. It is universally ignored.

That particular bridge is the Whitestone Bridge, which connects Queens and The Bronx. It gets mainly car traffic because a lot of it comes from two roads where commercial vehicles aren't allowed (the Hutchinson Parkway to the north and the Cross Island Parkway to the south). Delays of half an hour or more to pay the toll are not uncommon.

There's another bridge a few miles away called the Throgs Neck Bridge, which also connects Queens and The Bronx. Just because of the way the roads are laid out, it gets a lot more commercial traffic than the Whitestone does. But due to years of neglect, the bridge has numerous critical deficiencies and one of the worst inspection records in the state. The MTA refuses to release specific data about the failed inspection items for "security reasons" and insists that the bridge is safe, but nonetheless restricts heavy trucks (I believe over 40 tons) to late-night hours because of structural weakening due to neglect.

Which brings me to another gripe about the MTA and subsidies: For all the money they collect in tolls, you'd think they'd actually spend some of it on maintaining the bridges and tunnels. Instead, so much of it is siphoned off for mass transit that the bridges are literally crumbling. (I don't even want to think about the tunnels.) The nominal car toll on the Throgs Neck bridge is $8.00 and the 5-axle truck toll is $43.00. Would it be too much to ask that they actually spend some of it maintaining the bridge itself?

Rich

 

[Matthew]

One of the entertaining things of living right on a State border is watching how taxes affect behavior. Kansas raises taxes on widgets, so everone goes across the street and buys them in Missouri. MO raises taxes on muffler bearings and the KS muffler bearing shops make out. A KS suburb lowers a tax and a Kansas City company moves next door, or the other way around (poaching). And if a mileage tax gets proposed, somebody has to figure out how to determine which miles were driven in the northbound lanes of State Line Rd vs the southbound lanes (two different States in some sections.)

 

[cowman]

One of the entertaining things of living right on a State border is watching how taxes affect behavior. Kansas raises taxes on widgets, so everone goes across the street and buys them in Missouri. MO raises taxes on muffler bearings and the KS muffler bearing shops make out. A KS suburb lowers a tax and a Kansas City company moves next door, or the other way around (poaching). And if a mileage tax gets proposed, somebody has to figure out how to determine which miles were driven in the northbound lanes of State Line Rd vs the southbound lanes (two different States in some sections.)

Funny you should mention MO taxes... I live near the town of Quincy, IL. Just across the bridge from Quincy is West Quincy, MO. West Quincy consists almost entirely of gas stations, liquor/tobacco stores, etc because the MO taxes are lower. Everyone drives across the bridge to fill up.

 

[Everskyward]

Funny you should mention MO taxes... I live near the town of Quincy, IL. Just across the bridge from Quincy is West Quincy, MO. West Quincy consists almost entirely of gas stations, liquor/tobacco stores, etc because the MO taxes are lower. Everyone drives across the bridge to fill up.

Funny you should mention MO. I lived near St. Louis back in the 1980s. They had blue laws so very little could be sold on Sundays besides food. Many went over to Illinois to shop on Sundays.

But, to me, it seems strange to go out of the way to fill up your car. You're using gas to get a cheaper price. If you're driving by a cheaper gas station, that's another thing.

 

[Shepherd]

Your post is excusable because you obviously don't know the history of mass transit in New York City or the present workings of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

The short story is that the New York City transit system used to be operated for profit by two private companies, the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit company (BMT) and the Interborough Rapid Transit company (IRT). They managed to make a profit while keeping the fare at $0.05 from 1904 through the 1930's, when they requested and were denied a far increase to $0.07.

In 1932, the City of New York established a third "company," the Independent Subway System (IND), to raise revenue by competing with the BMT and IRT. This "company," combined with the city's refusal to allow the fare increase to $0.07, drove the BMT and IRT into insolvency, and they were purchased at bargain-basement rates by the city in 1940.

Predictably, by the late 1960's, the city had made such a mess of mass transit that the system was essentially bankrupt, despite having already raised the fares by 400 percent. So Governor Nelson Rockefeller and Mayor John Lindsay conspired to illegally seize control of the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority (TBTA), which was the only fiscally sound agency in New York City government at that time, from Robert Moses, and to divert the toll revenues to subsidize mass transit.

One of the reasons why the seizure was illegal was because the bonds that had been issued to fund the bridges, tunnels, and so forth that were under TBTA's control clearly defined the purposes for which the toll revenue was to be used -- and funding mass transit was not among them. Another was that some (not all) of the tolls were supposed to expire when the bonds were paid off. The reason Rockefeller and Lindsay got away with it anyway was because Chase Manhattan Bank, which was run by the governor's brother John, held most of the bonds.

A new state agency, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, was created to run the subways, regional commuter railroads, and bus systems, as well as the bridges and tunnels formerly run by the TBTA. The lion's share of the toll revenue was then diverted to public transit.

The MTA is quite probably the least accountable and most wasteful public agency ever established. Since the MTA was established, the tolls on the formerly TBTA bridges and tunnels have increased in varying amounts ranging from 800 percent to 1,600 percent; and since the city took over the subways (which were folded into the MTA), the fare has increased by more than 4,000 percent. There's also rental, advertising, and concession income from MTA-owned properties to the tune of billions of dollars per year.

But all that revenue still isn't enough. The MTA exists in a perpetual state of fiscal instability and must be subsidized by multiple surcharges, fees, and taxes paid by motorists, businesses of any kind, and self-employed people in any New York State county that has so much as a single MTA bus stop within its boundaries; as well as special taxes and surcharges on various transportation-related businesses, and numerous grants and subsidies from all levels of government.

And yet the MTA perpetually teeters on the brink of collapse. No amount of money has ever been enough to satisfy its hunger. It is a fiscal black hole.

The taxes, fees, and surcharges collected from people within MTA's footprint are not insignificant. We're not talking a few dollars a year. We're talking thousands of dollars. In fact, after Jeannette and I split, I decided to sell the business and move out of The City (before she changed her mind ). I considered places in New York as far north as the Adirondacks as well as in other states in the Northeast and New England. I did not, however, consider any county within the MTA's purview. I wanted to be far enough north that I wouldn't have to pay any of the numerous taxes, fees, and surcharges that would be levied against me as a self-employed person in, and merely as a resident of, any of those counties. The costs of supporting the MTA really are that bad.

Of course, anyone who lives in New York State pays for the MTA to some extent because of the grants and subsidies from general tax revenues and a few statewide subsidies built into various taxes and fees. The same could be said of anyone who lives in the United States, for that matter, since the agency receives massive federal subsidies as well. But the people who live in the Downtate New York counties where MTA has even a minimal presence get the biggest screwing of all, often to the tune of thousands of dollars a year.

So who's subsidizing whom?

People who live in the boondocks in general, even outside MTA's purview, pay more in fuel taxes (some of which also go to pay off MTA bonds, by the way) because of the increased distances that they drive. They also own more cars per capita and therefore pay more in registration fees and sales taxes. (Many people in New York City don't even bother to get driver's licenses, much less own cars.)

Furthermore, a lot of the roads in rural areas are maintained by counties and municipalities, not by the state, and that maintenance is funded by local tax revenues. Also, rural roads in general require less maintenance because they get less use. Other than filling a few potholes every spring, most of the roads around here are on 10-year resurfacing cycles. Some are longer.

The other insult in all this is the myth perpetuated by pro-mass transit advocates that "rich people" drive cars and "poor people" ride the subways. This too is a farce.

Take a look at the traffic waiting to pay the tolls at the Midtown or Battery tunnels some day. The vast majority of vehicles are either taxis or service vehicles of some sort (maids, plumbers, carpenters, couriers, mobile food vendors, delivery trucks, and so forth) driven by blue-collar people. They have no choice other than to drive because of the tools and materials that they need to schlep around with them. The bankers, stockbrokers, commodities traders, and CEOs, on the other hand, can take Metro North, the LIRR, and the subways and buses because all they need to carry is their briefcases and their egos.

Consequently, a farmer, storekeeper, handyman, or other self-employed person -- or even simply a resident -- of Dutchess, Putnam, Orange, or any other county in MTA's purview, is paying extra taxes, fees, and surcharges to subsidize the commutes of bankers, stockbrokers, commodities traders, and CEOs riding the railroads, subways, and buses -- quite contrary to the common myth.

So again, who's subsidizing whom?

Personally, I've long favored dismantling the MTA and selling it off to private operators. The only time New York City transit ever operated efficiently was under private ownership. It was profitable enough that the city itself got into the game, first by establishing the IND and then by buying the MBT and IRT, because they thought mass transit was a lucrative revenue source. Look how that turned out.

Rich

Well stated. Thank you.

I have to pay MTA taxes on my electric bill, my cable bill and my phone bill because the train runs through my county. There are probably other fees hidden in other things. The county managed to stop the collection of MTA taxes on salaries, but New York City, backed by federal money and muscle, is coming after us again to subsidize NYC.
BTW: Obama also signed an Executive Order that raised our electric rates 300% so they wouldn't have to raise electric rates in NYC.

 

[wsuffa]

The MTA actually managed to get white Helvetica type on a black background registered as a trademark because that's the style they use on their platform signs. And yes, they do aggressively enforce it.



Yes, it does say that. But the rule is neither enforced nor enforceable. It was one of the many knee-jerk fascist rules that came in the wake of 9/11. It is universally ignored.

That particular bridge is the Whitestone Bridge, which connects Queens and The Bronx. It gets mainly car traffic because a lot of it comes from two roads where commercial vehicles aren't allowed (the Hutchinson Parkway to the north and the Cross Island Parkway to the south). Delays of half an hour or more to pay the toll are not uncommon.

There's another bridge a few miles away called the Throgs Neck Bridge, which also connects Queens and The Bronx. Just because of the way the roads are laid out, it gets a lot more commercial traffic than the Whitestone does. But due to years of neglect, the bridge has numerous critical deficiencies and one of the worst inspection records in the state. The MTA refuses to release specific data about the failed inspection items for "security reasons" and insists that the bridge is safe, but nonetheless restricts heavy trucks (I believe over 40 tons) to late-night hours because of structural weakening due to neglect.

Which brings me to another gripe about the MTA and subsidies: For all the money they collect in tolls, you'd think they'd actually spend some of it on maintaining the bridges and tunnels. Instead, so much of it is siphoned off for mass transit that the bridges are literally crumbling. (I don't even want to think about the tunnels.) The nominal car toll on the Throgs Neck bridge is $8.00 and the 5-axle truck toll is $43.00. Would it be too much to ask that they actually spend some of it maintaining the bridge itself?

Rich

Isn't income redistribution grand?

Been many years since I've driven those bridges on a frequent basis. Used to drive them every 3-4 days way back when. I still remember bridge tokens (for some of the bridges) that gave you a discount when you bought them in groups of 10....

I'm not too surprised that they've let them deteriorate. When I lived there, the subways and (what's now) Metro North were allowed to deteriorate though the bridges were kept up. Now it's the opposite.

 

[cowman]

Funny you should mention MO. I lived near St. Louis back in the 1980s. They had blue laws so very little could be sold on Sundays besides food. Many went over to Illinois to shop on Sundays.

But, to me, it seems strange to go out of the way to fill up your car. You're using gas to get a cheaper price. If you're driving by a cheaper gas station, that's another thing.

For me it's how far out of my way is it but yeah. I mean 10 cents cheaper on a 15 gallon tank is a $1.50, not worth going all the way across town but if it's only 1/2 mile away why not. If I'm filling up my pickup and have a couple of 5 gallon cans with me though I could easily end up buying 30-40 gallons so that also changes the calculus.

I think for some it's a matter of achievement that makes them feel good. For others I think it's just a matter of feeling like they're getting screwed over at the higher tax rate.

 

[RJM62]

Isn't income redistribution grand?

Been many years since I've driven those bridges on a frequent basis. Used to drive them every 3-4 days way back when. I still remember bridge tokens (for some of the bridges) that gave you a discount when you bought them in groups of 10....

I'm not too surprised that they've let them deteriorate. When I lived there, the subways and (what's now) Metro North were allowed to deteriorate though the bridges were kept up. Now it's the opposite.

Pretty much everything that Robert Moses built -- and he built a lot -- is being allowed to crumble.

Rich

 

[N747JB]

I think for some it's a matter of achievement that makes them feel good. For others I think it's just a matter of feeling like they're getting screwed over at the higher tax rate.

I'm that way about buying airplane fuel, I'll buy a lot more away from home because it's cheaper, it's not just the money, there is a little principle involved! My in laws live in North Carolina, they buy booze when they are in South Carolina, it's a lot cheaper, and they are frugal!