Logging cross country +50NM between Depart Dest Airports FLYING Non Direct Route

[fly4usa]

Pvt Pilot Training for Inst Rating. As many pilots starting their INST PILOT - AIRPLANE rating, need PIC Cross Country, 50 hrs, Post PVT (although the SOLO student cross country counts). THIS IS FOR INST RATNG.

This scenario is airport A, B, C.... Shape of a triangle. A>B 57nm (base of triangle W to E), B>C N to NW 45nm, C>A 39nm. ONLY TWO LANDINGS, B and A more than 50nm straight line. Airport C overflown (app to missed). Back to Airport A fill stop. TWO LANDINGS more than 50nm apart returning to departure airport.

DETAIL: Airport A to B is 57 miles straight East. Execute RNAV approach (no PT or course reversal) WITH T/G. Take off (missed approach). "Divert" to Airport C North West 46 nm, VOR approach, full PT, missed no landing. Return to departure airport A South West (triangle route) to RNAV LPV (vectors to IF segment), full stop, 40 nm Away C>A. (again no landing at C, two landings one at B and one at A which are 57nm apart).

For the record the DEFINITIONS PART 61.1, SPACIFICALLY CROSS COUNTRY IS IN 14CFR61.1 (b)(ii)
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles* from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

* Does not say fly time straight line. Slow planes takes longer than a fast plane.

Pilots mistake FAR's the so precise and comprehensive that everything is explicitly stated with no ambiguity. Sometimes FAR says THOU SHALL NOT... That is axiomatic.

The only opinion that counts is that of "Administrator" (FAA), an FAA Inspector, DPE, your airline/Chief pilot. I found nothing explicit, but I am sure Pilots of America will have a ton of opinions. I will be calling two DPE's and and my FSDO as well. Why. I make sure. If there is a doubt... I can't wait to see the thoughtful replies. To be clear, unless you are FAA or DPE... OR you have addressed this with FAA and DPE, I'd love to hear your finding and experience. If you must post your opinion guess speculation, please do. Up to you.

NOTE: Started Teaching in 1990 (CFI-II-M), then flew for airlines while part time instructing but few ratings (Flt Reviews, Transition Training, Hi-Perf). My INST students in the 90's came to me with over 100 hrs, cross country time, maturity. Now in 2020's I get students who barely passed PVT, not current with ZERO post PVT Check cross country or anytime. Now I incorporate +1.5 or +2hr flights into INST Training to give both dual, Sim Inst and Cross country. OK so be it. That is great but it also is why I am asking this LOG XC time question with non-direct routing. Not to mention holds. I RECOMMEND new private pilots, GO FLY after your rating. That time as PIC with no Instructor will help you. By all means make them XC's as well. Trust me. Fly for at last a year post Pvt. before INST RATING. I get the two birds one stone, but you need 250 hrs for COMMERCIAL. YOU NEED THE TIME if your goal is Professional Pilot. That was the INTENT of regulation to get PIC (not dual) Flight Experience VFR before INST RATING.

Again I 99% sure but I like to be 100% and want some definitive precedence. The DPE's in this neck of the woods bounce students for lack of XC occasionally (not mine). So I am sufficiently paranoid.

BONUS Question CGUMPS (acronym nonmonic) allowed by your DPE as a checklist (vs a hard copy) in hand? One DPE was fine with it. Again this is a simplex airplane fixed gear and prop. Again not looking for opinion but DPE experience yeah or yay.

 

[RyanB]

If you land at an airport of more than 50nm from where you departed, then it’s XC. Doesn’t matter how you arrive there.

 

[RussR]

Yeah, why the long-winded question with all the unnecessary exposition? It's a simple question with a simple answer. It's XC. Could have saved yourself a lot of typing.

 

[Clip4]

You can land at 50 airports as long as one is as straight line distance of more than 50 nm from the point of departure.

I have never heard of an examiner who did not accept a GUMPS landing checklist even in a complex airplane. The reason is you are in the pattern at pattern altitude and your attention should be outside the aircraft.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah, why the long-winded question with all the unnecessary exposition?

Just adding words to a simple regulation to discover its hidden meaning. It's not like we don't see that --- often.

Actually, we've seen it from this specific poster. Suffers from Regulitis. Answer in a way they don't like, even with 40 years of references, and your answer will be rejected.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

BONUS Question CGUMPS (acronym nonmonic) allowed by your DPE as a checklist (vs a hard copy) in hand? One DPE was fine with it. Again this is a simplex airplane fixed gear and prop. Again not looking for opinion but DPE experience yeah or yay.

I have known DPEs who insist you refer to a written checklist. You can do the before landing checklist from memory, then pick up the written checklist and glance at it, and the DPE can check the box "uses written checklists."

 

[RussR]

Just adding words to a simple regulation to discover its hidden meaning. It's not like we don't see that --- often.

Actually, we've seen it from this specific poster. Suffers from Regulitis. Answer in a way they don't like, even with 40 years of references, and your answer will be rejected.

Oh, I know. I figured I'd just ask the obvious, direct question of "why so much to say so little".

 

[dmspilot]

nonmonic

a simplex airplane

yeah or yay.

If you must post your opinion guess speculation, please do.

My opinion is you should see a doctor about your dementia.

 

[pfarber]

BONUS Question CGUMPS (acronym nonmonic) allowed by your DPE as a checklist (vs a hard copy) in hand? One DPE was fine with it. Again this is a simplex airplane fixed gear and prop. Again not looking for opinion but DPE experience yeah or yay.

GUMPS is meaningless for SEL training AC. Literally half of the actions are meaningless. U and P in a 150/172/Piper trainer? I guess if your trainer is a complex AC, but that's not the norm.

GUMPS is more proof that 99% of CFIs are trash. If my DPE failed me because I didn't set the prop or check the gear in a 172 but I did follow the ACTUAL POH checklist I would be livid.

For my PPL ride I used the checklist. For the Piper it was a placard above the throttle.

 

[Pinecone]

1) Even if you don't fly more than 50 miles away, it is still a XC flight. But may not count for certain ratings. Some log books have columns for XC and over 50 NM XC.

2) GUMPS is a simple, quick, one last check that works with all airplanes. Just because something doesn't need to be done on a specific airplane does not invalidate it. The idea is build a habit that will keep from doing something stupid. I have used a short final GUMPs on J-3 Cubs to supersonic jets.

 

[fly4usa]

Yeah, why the long-winded question with all the unnecessary exposition? It's a simple question with a simple answer. It's XC. Could have saved yourself a lot of typing.

Hey, thanks for the criticism. Duly noted, but I want it to be very clear and precise.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Hey, thanks for the criticism. Duly noted, but I want it to be very clear and precise.

You failed.

 

[Kritchlow]

lol…. Gumps, and variations of it, are more of a flow. Use whatever flow you want… Then back it up with the WRITTEN checklist.
Some DPE’s may be forgiving on that, but that is the correct way to do it.

 

[fly4usa]

Hey, thanks for the criticism. Duly noted, but I want it to be very clear and precise. Yiu did not readvit. What is yiur reference. The FAR's are not clear. I'm sure i'm following the intent of the.Regulation. however what of yiu have 4 hrs of fuel. Do a 51nm ine way RT A B A. but yiu circle the arrival airport for 2 hours in addition to 2 hour 1hr RT. I wounder if DzpE woukd say hey what?

Thanks for the criticism. Did yiu read it? Do you have feedback from FAA or DPE?

Give you 2 examples one is ok per Reg but does not meet the INTENT. The 2nd example is wrong and sed this ligged by students wrong.

1) Take off A go to B 51nm, land, takeoff return directly to A. Don't land immediately, circle for 2 hrs. So a 1hr XC RT is 3 hours. DPE may at least question it. This is extream example. This where intent comes in and if ruled by judge it sets precedence.

2) student flew +52nm (stright line dist betweenairports), and preceded to do 6 T/G's and fly back. He logged whole flight as XC. Cleary the T/G's not XC. These are things I see students log.

Doing this for 39 yrs I have seen Regs interpreted by Feds and DPE all kind of ways. Thanks for your opinion but want the precedence from Fed. Not worried. Not a safety issue. However want students to have righteously logged time for ratings they seek. DPE goes wow, organized and correct. Good start to cjlheck ride, "Wgats This?" Again 39 yrs seen other CFI's students check ride end before it started. I'm not cavalry saying "easy" and assuming.

Reason my student will have many flights like this with different parings but similar strategies to log XC while getting approaches in. 45 minutes of S&L after each approach. Time, money and training is wasted.

 

[fly4usa]

lol…. Gumps, and variations of it, are more of a flow. Use whatever flow you want… Then back it up with the WRITTEN checklist.
Some DPE’s may be forgiving on that, but that is the correct way to do it.

Ha ha? No CGUMPS is not a flow its a verbal neumonic checklist. Its a MEMORIZED CHECK LIST. The flow is NOT exactly in order of FLOW. S check list does not have to be printed.

Memory items like 5 T's, 5 C's, or CIGARS.are great. The later CIGARS is pre takeoff done on tsxi down to R, run up. After Runup they do printed check list. Saves time which is critical if you have IFR clearance Void time.

I get Pvt pilots (not mine) that take 12 to 18 min from start to ready w/ 2 min taxi. They are read and do checklist.Monkeys that are paralyzed without that printed checklist. No need to be that slow.

I teach FLOW than check list for most things. But for Landing.or climb or cruise or descent or missed / go around CGUMPS is great for all occasions.

Singke pilot I don't want them looking down at printed checklist while on final approach in instrument conditions or flying pattern while turning to base in VFR not lookung for traffic,. So ha ha?

You did not answer my question. Sorry don't want opinion but experience with FAA or DPE. I talked to one DPE and he was fine with CGUMPS, As long as all items were accomplished and checked, aka memorized. checklist.

 

[Kritchlow]

Ha ha? No CGUMPS is not a flow its a verbal neumonic checklist. Its a MEMORIZED CHECK LIST. The flow is NOT exactly in order of FLOW. S check list does not have to be printed.

Memory items like 5 T's, 5 C's, or CIGARS.are great. The later CIGARS is pre takeoff done on tsxi down to R, run up. After Runup they do printed check list. Saves time which is critical if you have IFR clearance Void time.

I get Pvt pilots (not mine) that take 12 to 18 min from start to ready w/ 2 min taxi. They are read and do checklist.Monkeys that are paralyzed without that printed checklist. No need to be that slow.

I teach FLOW than check list for most things. Landing. .

Singke pilot I don't want them looking down at printed checklist while on final approach in instrument conditions or flying pattern while turning to base in VFR not lookung for traffic,. So ha ha?

Gumps is just a way to memorize a flow. Nothing more.

And respectfully, I disagree. A checklist must be in written form, paper or electronic…. But not memory.

 

[Lindberg]

If you'll post your address, I'll send you a dictionary and a copy of Strunk & White.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

GUMPS is meaningless for SEL training AC. Literally half of the actions are meaningless. U and P in a 150/172/Piper trainer? I guess if your trainer is a complex AC, but that's not the norm.

My primary CFI got me in the GUMPS habit, and the "U" was just to look out the window and make sure the tires looked good. Better than nothing, I suppose.

1) Take off A go to B 51nm, land, takeoff return directly to A. Don't land immediately, circle for 2 hrs. So a 1hr XC RT is 3 hours. DPE may at least question it. This is extream example. This where intent comes in and if ruled by judge it sets precedence.

2) student flew +52nm (stright line dist betweenairports), and preceded to do 6 T/G's and fly back. He logged whole flight as XC. Cleary the T/G's not XC. These are things I see students log.

And they're both fine to log that way.

Doing this for 39 yrs I have seen Regs interpreted by Feds and DPE all kind of ways. Thanks for your opinion but want the precedence from Fed.

Feds and DPEs don't get to interpret regs. The FAA Chief Counsel's office does. Their interpretations are searchable online: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...gc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations

Given that I gave you links to specific interpretations in one of your other logging threads and you still chose not to believe me (or the FAA for that matter), I'm done doing your homework for you. You can search it yourself.

 

[Jim_R]

1) Take off A go to B 51nm, land, takeoff return directly to A. Don't land immediately, circle for 2 hrs. So a 1hr XC RT is 3 hours. DPE may at least question it. This is extream example. This where intent comes in and if ruled by judge it sets precedence.

Why do you keep bringing up how much time you spent in the air? As you quoted and pointed out in your OP, the reg in question only talks distance. Doesn't matter if you're flying a J3 or an SR71, 50 nm between airports is 50nm between airports. What DPE has ever questioned this? (And who is this "judge" that will rule and set precedent??)

Similarly, it doesn't matter if you fly a straight line, 10-mile-radius S-turns, or loop-the-loops en route. Measure on a map how far apart the airports are. 50nm or more? You're good. Less than 50nm? It doesn't count.

Sheesh.

And if you don't trust some guy on the Internet, then why are you asking your question on the Internet? Go call your FSDO or The Administrator.

 

[fly4usa]

lol…. Gumps, and variations of it, are more of a flow. Use whatever flow you want… Then back it up with the WRITTEN checklist.
Some DPE’s may be forgiving on that, but that is the correct way to do it.

My primary CFI got me in the GUMPS habit, and the "U" was just to look out the window and make sure the tires looked good. Better than nothing, I suppose.

And they're both fine to log that way.

Feds and DPEs don't get to interpret regs. The FAA Chief Counsel's office does. Their interpretations are searchable online: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...gc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations

Given that I gave you links to specific interpretations in one of your other logging threads and you still chose not to believe me (or the FAA for that matter), I'm done doing your homework for you. You can search it yourself.

flyingcheesehead, great reply. Some of the others are opinion and some snide remarks. Prove it show me in the regulations the LETTER of the law and intent?

People are coming up with all kinds of creative interpretations that do NOT follow the INTENT of the REG... What do you think CROSS COUNTRY MEANS? Look it up. If the "circle" is holding as part of INST training fine. If it is a sneaky way to log XC without going XC I think you are in violation. YOU DO YOU.

So Cheesehead you say going to +50nm and doing 5 touch and goes and returning to departure is all cross country? I disagree. Read the definition FLIGHT 50nm (as measured not flown straight line distance). Yes? So you take off and land at same airport? Is that cross country (for sake of the a rating, e.g., Inst, Com). Yes? Yes.

In the above example T/G pilot flies back to departure airport or another airport +50nm. That is cross country but not the 5 TG's staying in pattern. If they circuled in holding (for training or actual) one could argue it is fine. I would, it's not a Jedi mind trick to work around the Regs. In my case my students hold which takes at last 4 min per lap. IAP's take longer than a VFR pattern. We are talking intent not some "clever: way to log XC with out actually going XC. Again sorry to say YOUR opinion does not matter the FAA and DPE matter. If you proudly announce you turned ever 50nm XC into a 3 hr flight by circuiting VFR to "build XC time". I am pretty sure they would have you pack up and go. THIS IS FOR RATINGS. For a PVT pilot just logging times for grins and giggles it does not matter.

THINK of it as an anchor when you land. The 50nm starts over. Once you land that is a new anchor. Yes. T/G's are really short flights. Obviously taking off and landing at same airport is less than 50nm straight line. You all do you. I am not arguing. I will be conservative and interpret the letter of REG and intent conservatively. In the end the minor loss of time and irrelevant. BUT it becomes a dub dub dub dot BIG DEAL if you have your Check ride abruptly ended in time and money. DPE's have zero motivation to look the other way, hold their nose. GO AHEAD AND ARGUE WITH THEM... I read by so and so on Pilots of America this time is good. WHY do you all make it hard and try and outsmart what has been convention for decades? Again I was 99% sure but now 100% and some of you helped. Some of you were rude and not helpful.

Disagree I again you don't matter in that it's MY students logged time and I am the CFI. IN THE END THE ONLY ones that really counts (officially) are FAA and DPE. We know they also have opinions, and may be not correct. It happens. They win because they are the authority. So why even tempt fate. Make it lead pipe simple with no room for interpretation.

When it comes to a rating, T/G example if each circuit is 4 min? 5 circuits 20 minutes or about 0.3 Hobbs. NOT XC. T/G's are not cross country. AGAIN INTENT of regulation. Up to you to log hrs with a liberal interpretation w/o out precedent and "ruling" in writing by administration. XC means CROSS COUNTRY going somewhere to T/G's. This is wat a JUDGE would likely rule if this was challenged. Regs are written by lawyers for lawyers. When their is some vague or conflicting Reg in the end their may be ruling (or not). IN this case no need. I have ruled conservatively. Inexperienced pilots think the REGS are absolute and explicate covering every scenario in every way. Sometimes they do, thou shall not. Other times (like XC) the Regs do not and can not address every liberal way pilots interpret the REG to way to work around the intent.

Does my student need that 0.3 hrs of XC T/G's? No. Why even add it in. If it can be even possibly argued (as I did) T/G's are not cross country then don't log it for a rating. What if the pilot did all the T/G's at the start of the XC vs at the destination airport? Would that be also all logged as XC? No, it does not meet the letter of the REG or the INTENT. Again I had a big pee pee match over another student flying with non CFI's and not being current (by \6 months) to carry passengers or having High Performance endorsement and logging it. Well the adult (he is 18) logged it. Again NOT a CFI and he was not qualified. This forum had all the experts come out and accuse me of dubious lineage. WHY is being conservative bad. Even if just TOTAL TIME it is useless time towards the rating he seeks.

PS There are two airports that are exactly 50mm. I tell them avoid those to log XC. Make sure it's OVER 50nm, by several nm. YES I KNOW THINGS... DPE's in this region have bumped students (not mine) on check ride reviewing time. The one case I heard it was not 50 it was 49. Fair enough. Argue with the DPE let me know how that works out.

I had a student fly 25 nm (land pick up passenger, not XC) than 70 nm. Later coming back reverse route, dropping off pass and then going back to base. He LOGGED the whole thing as XC. The legs that were 25 nm NOT XC. At this point I don't care what you think. Sorry no offense. I understand you think it is OK? Prove it. Show me in REGS it is OK. That is the only thing that matters. It takes some Jedi mind trick and convoluted to take 50nm straight line is same as 25nm. Otherwise you all do you. Again the LOSS in small amount of XC is not worth the potential "QUESTION" explain this time on a check ride. When hiring pilots at airlines THEY LOOK at your pvt pilot check ride, see if you passed and how many hours. I know I did it interviewing new hires. It's not a gotch you thing just getting good pilots. Also write NEAT. Use a straight edge. Yuck. I got out ADS-B info and saved it and adjusted the XC. BooWho he lost 0.7 hr XC.

Also when logging I RECOMMEND you make separate entries. It makes EVERYONES life easy. The 4 leg example above, he logged the whole thing in two lines with BASE as to and from with the other two airports annotated in the margins.

RECOMMEND NOT LOGGING MULTI LEG FLIGHTS IN ONE LINE IF SEEKING A RATING AND NEEEDING TO KEEP TRACK OF XC, PIC.... Example you go 51nm and land. Than take off for another airport and land 30nm away. That second leg is not cross country log it separate. Also write neat. I use a straight edge.

Cheers.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Why do you keep bringing up how much time you spent in the air? As you quoted and pointed out in your OP, the reg in question only talks distance. Doesn't matter if you're flying a J3 or an SR71, 50 nm between airports is 50nm between airports. What DPE has ever questioned this? (And who is this "judge" that will rule and set precedent??)

1) Take off A go to B 51nm, land, takeoff return directly to A. Don't land immediately, circle for 2 hrs. So a 1hr XC RT is 3 hours. DPE may at least question it. This is extream example. This where intent comes in and if ruled by judge it sets precedence.

FWIW, I think this example presents at least a potential problem. AFAIK, the FAA has never been directly presented and answered that scenario and the related one involving 30 touch & goes to meet the cross country time requirement for a certificate or rating (y'know, like the "5 hours of solo cross-country time" in 61.109). That may simply because pilots either don't go in for that level of abuse (as a CFI, I wouldn't sign off on a student solo cross country like that nor endorse the 8710 ), or are at least smart enough not to document it.

I distinguish that from deciding on routing - including sightseeing side trips - to extend cross country time. Or even things like my first solo cross country mess where I got lost for a while and later diverted due to a com issue, which probably added an extra hour to the flight.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Some of the others are opinion and some snide remarks.

What do you expect? We’ve seen your ******** before.

 

[EdFred]

Substitute "are a CFI" for "came from my loins".

Also applicable:

 

[RussR]

flyingcheesehead, great reply. Some of the others are opinion and some snide remarks. Prove it show me in the regulations the LETTER of the law and intent?

People are coming up with all kinds of creative interpretations that do NOT follow the INTENT of the REG... What do you think CROSS COUNTRY MEANS? Look it up. If the "circle" is holding as part of INST training fine. If it is a sneaky way to log XC without going XC I think you are in violation. YOU DO YOU.

So Cheesehead you say going to +50nm and doing 5 touch and goes and returning to departure is all cross country? I disagree. Read the definition FLIGHT 50nm (as measured not flown straight line distance). Yes? So you take off and land at same airport? Is that cross country (for sake of the a rating, e.g., Inst, Com). Yes? Yes.

In the above example T/G pilot flies back to departure airport or another airport +50nm. That is cross country but not the 5 TG's staying in pattern. If they circuled in holding (for training or actual) one could argue it is fine. I would, it's not a Jedi mind trick to work around the Regs. In my case my students hold which takes at last 4 min per lap. IAP's take longer than a VFR pattern. We are talking intent not some "clever: way to log XC with out actually going XC. Again sorry to say YOUR opinion does not matter the FAA and DPE matter. If you proudly announce you turned ever 50nm XC into a 3 hr flight by circuiting VFR to "build XC time". I am pretty sure they would have you pack up and go. THIS IS FOR RATINGS. For a PVT pilot just logging times for grins and giggles it does not matter.

THINK of it as an anchor when you land. The 50nm starts over. Once you land that is a new anchor. Yes. T/G's are really short flights. Obviously taking off and landing at same airport is less than 50nm straight line. You all do you. I am not arguing. I will be conservative and interpret the letter of REG and intent conservatively. In the end the minor loss of time and irrelevant. BUT it becomes a dub dub dub dot BIG DEAL if you have your Check ride abruptly ended in time and money. DPE's have zero motivation to look the other way, hold their nose. GO AHEAD AND ARGUE WITH THEM... I read by so and so on Pilots of America this time is good. WHY do you all make it hard and try and outsmart what has been convention for decades? Again I was 99% sure but now 100% and some of you helped. Some of you were rude and not helpful.

Disagree I again you don't matter in that it's MY students logged time and I am the CFI. IN THE END THE ONLY ones that really counts (officially) are FAA and DPE. We know they also have opinions, and may be not correct. It happens. They win because they are the authority. So why even tempt fate. Make it lead pipe simple with no room for interpretation.

When it comes to a rating, T/G example if each circuit is 4 min? 5 circuits 20 minutes or about 0.3 Hobbs. NOT XC. T/G's are not cross country. AGAIN INTENT of regulation. Up to you to log hrs with a liberal interpretation w/o out precedent and "ruling" in writing by administration. XC means CROSS COUNTRY going somewhere to T/G's. This is wat a JUDGE would likely rule if this was challenged. Regs are written by lawyers for lawyers. When their is some vague or conflicting Reg in the end their may be ruling (or not). IN this case no need. I have ruled conservatively. Inexperienced pilots think the REGS are absolute and explicate covering every scenario in every way. Sometimes they do, thou shall not. Other times (like XC) the Regs do not and can not address every liberal way pilots interpret the REG to way to work around the intent.

Does my student need that 0.3 hrs of XC T/G's? No. Why even add it in. If it can be even possibly argued (as I did) T/G's are not cross country then don't log it for a rating. What if the pilot did all the T/G's at the start of the XC vs at the destination airport? Would that be also all logged as XC? No, it does not meet the letter of the REG or the INTENT. Again I had a big pee pee match over another student flying with non CFI's and not being current (by \6 months) to carry passengers or having High Performance endorsement and logging it. Well the adult (he is 18) logged it. Again NOT a CFI and he was not qualified. This forum had all the experts come out and accuse me of dubious lineage. WHY is being conservative bad. Even if just TOTAL TIME it is useless time towards the rating he seeks.

PS There are two airports that are exactly 50mm. I tell them avoid those to log XC. Make sure it's OVER 50nm, by several nm. YES I KNOW THINGS... DPE's in this region have bumped students (not mine) on check ride reviewing time. The one case I heard it was not 50 it was 49. Fair enough. Argue with the DPE let me know how that works out.

I had a student fly 25 nm (land pick up passenger, not XC) than 70 nm. Later coming back reverse route, dropping off pass and then going back to base. He LOGGED the whole thing as XC. The legs that were 25 nm NOT XC. At this point I don't care what you think. Sorry no offense. I understand you think it is OK? Prove it. Show me in REGS it is OK. That is the only thing that matters. It takes some Jedi mind trick and convoluted to take 50nm straight line is same as 25nm. Otherwise you all do you. Again the LOSS in small amount of XC is not worth the potential "QUESTION" explain this time on a check ride. When hiring pilots at airlines THEY LOOK at your pvt pilot check ride, see if you passed and how many hours. I know I did it interviewing new hires. It's not a gotch you thing just getting good pilots. Also write NEAT. Use a straight edge. Yuck. I got out ADS-B info and saved it and adjusted the XC. BooWho he lost 0.7 hr XC.

Also when logging I RECOMMEND you make separate entries. It makes EVERYONES life easy. The 4 leg example above, he logged the whole thing in two lines with BASE as to and from with the other two airports annotated in the margins.

RECOMMEND NOT LOGGING MULTI LEG FLIGHTS IN ONE LINE IF SEEKING A RATING AND NEEEDING TO KEEP TRACK OF XC, PIC.... Example you go 51nm and land. Than take off for another airport and land 30nm away. That second leg is not cross country log it separate. Also write neat. I use a straight edge.

Cheers.

Your opinions, beliefs and methods are so out of sync with standard and accepted practice that I don't even know where to begin. Or why I'm going to bother.

First, this is a valid XC In either direction.



You want a regulatory reference? That's easy. 61.1b, definition of Cross Country Time, ii(B). I'm not sure what else you're hoping to see. There's no need for more interpretations because it's in black and white. Original point of departure is PWA (or CLK), and as long as you eventually make it to the other end (CLK or PWA) and land, that's more than 50 nm away from your original point of departure. Pretty clear.

Now, would I send a student out on this to meet the XC requirements? Absolutely NOT. It wouldn't accomplish anything useful from a training aspect other than "follow I-40 and land at each airport you see". Actually, that might be good training from the aspect of entering and exiting the pattern, running climb/descent checklists, etc., so wouldn't be a bad idea for a dual lesson. But yeah, not a student solo XC flight.

However, if someone post-Private was to go up and fly this to build XC time for their instrument rating? Sure, no problem, what can I say? I complies with 61.1, regardless of my personal feelings about it.

And despite your preference for logging each leg on its own line, which is fine, it's also pretty standard, well-accepted practice to log this something like "PWA-RCE-RQO-2O8-OJA-CLK", writing as small as is necessary to cram it all in. No DPE or FSDO employee should have a problem with that.

And, if you were my instructor and told me that 0.7 of a valid XC flight I made didn't count, we'd no longer be flying together because obviously you let your personal preferences override the regulations.

 

[pfarber]

Re: GUMPS

Landing phase and the use of this idiotic acronym defy logic. There are no immediate actions required in the pattern and landing short of an emergency. You should have have a checklist of items to perform. Entering the pattern is a well thought out and deliberate action. Doing something that 50% useless in a trainer THEN having to refer to a proper checklist is lunacy and wastes time.

Looking over the ACS this is repeated many times "Complete the appropriate checklist."

Not once did I read a skill that required the use of an acronym that was 50% useless.

What the DPE IS looking for is this: PA.IV.B.S1 Complete the appropriate checklist.

GUMPS is not that.

 

[Matthew]

Now I’m going to need to rethink my commercial long xc plan.

…

Ok, rethinking complete.

 

[fly4usa]

I have things to do, I have with student then a trip. If you can't my position, legal, conservative then that is on you. I reject your opinion and my right to use my own after 15,000 hrs, 5 FAA pilot ratings, 4 typees, 2 Gnd, 2000 hrs dual both GA and Airline. I don't need to agree with you. Sorry. You are wasting time. I vetted this and got the answer I wanted and need. I will still talk to my DPE's. Argue with yourself. Pilots of America never ceases to amaze me.

 

[fly4usa]

Your opinions, beliefs and methods are so out of sync with standard and accepted practice that I don't even know where to begin. Or why I'm going to bother.

First, this is a valid XC In either direction.

View attachment 131345

You want a regulatory reference? That's easy. 61.1b, definition of Cross Country Time, ii(B). I'm not sure what else you're hoping to see. There's no need for more interpretations because it's in black and white. Original point of departure is PWA (or CLK), and as long as you eventually make it to the other end (CLK or PWA) and land, that's more than 50 nm away from your original point of departure. Pretty clear.

Now, would I send a student out on this to meet the XC requirements? Absolutely NOT. It wouldn't accomplish anything useful from a training aspect other than "follow I-40 and land at each airport you see". Actually, that might be good training from the aspect of entering and exiting the pattern, running climb/descent checklists, etc., so wouldn't be a bad idea for a dual lesson. But yeah, not a student solo XC flight.

However, if someone post-Private was to go up and fly this to build XC time for their instrument rating? Sure, no problem, what can I say? I complies with 61.1, regardless of my personal feelings about it.

And despite your preference for logging each leg on its own line, which is fine, it's also pretty standard, well-accepted practice to log this something like "PWA-RCE-RQO-2O8-OJA-CLK", writing as small as is necessary to cram it all in. No DPE or FSDO employee should have a problem with that.

And, if you were my instructor and told me that 0.7 of a valid XC flight I made didn't count, we'd no longer be flying together because obviously you let your personal preferences override the regulations.

".....as long as you eventually make it to the other end"? Where does it say that? You inserted your own words.

REG "Conducted in an appropriate aircraft. Includes a point of landing that is at least a straight line distance of more than 50 NM from the point of departure"

I admire how sure you are and the logic it took to get there. But it is wrong FOR RATINGS. If you are just logging XC for XC yes any flight at another airport is XC. The INTENT is experience in NAV, Planning, Communications, Weather.... Right.

Not my first time at radeo, pilot 39 yrs, instructor 34 yrs. Please talk to a CFI, DPE or local FSDO. Again your are trying to outsmart the FAR's. It is simple and intent is not skip across airports.

I am going to Oshkosh for whole week and I will ask the FAA. There is a difference between logging for a rating and for the grins and giggles. You can log anything you want as XC. The DPE can not accept it, and likely will. I know them. They read REGS in strict sense not creative ways.

"pretty standard, well-accepted practice"
And a bad practice, at least for low time pilots trying to log flight experience for a rating to allow DPE to read easily Log books have two airport pairs. YES. When you say "pretty standard practice", that is a logical fallacy, an appeal to authority, to assume that makes it right. When you were a kid and told your parents everyone was doing "it", and they replied if they jumped off a tall building would you do that? I am not taking your advice. Sorry.

Not to be a hypocrite I do log three airports in one line from time to time or not at all. No legal requirement to log unless it is for currency. However at +15K hrs and 5 FAA ratings my logging XC for a rating is long over. However I DO LOG dual given because I have to keep records of training I give. But I may get my glider CFI. Do as you like Sir but please don't post "AS LONG AS YOU GET TO THE END"... that is not in the REGS. The judge of what qualifies as XC for INST, COM ratings is per DPE, not you or me. I will ask a DPE if that is OK for you. Cheers

 

[dmspilot]

I reject your opinion and my right to use my own

You have consistently come here and asked questions only to disagree with all of the answers. So why are you asking if you think you know the answer already and won't listen to what anyone else has to say?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I find it interesting that in threads about accurate logging, the OP has gone from

I am a 10,000 hr ATP. I have not instructed in decades and getting back into instructing.

To

at +15K hrs

In less than a year.

 

[crash7]

I am going to Oshkosh for whole week and I will ask the FAA. There is a difference between logging for a rating and for the grins and giggles. You can log anything you want as XC. The DPE can not accept it, and likely will. I know them. They read REGS in strict sense not creative ways.

Oh, PLEASE let us know when/where you will be asking the FAA while there. I and several others here would LOVE to watch that play out. Seriously, PLEASE.

 

[RussR]

".....as long as you eventually make it to the other end"? Where does it say that? You inserted your own words.

REG "Conducted in an appropriate aircraft. Includes a point of landing that is at least a straight line distance of more than 50 NM from the point of departure"

I admire how sure you are and the logic it took to get there. But it is wrong FOR RATINGS. If you are just logging XC for XC yes any flight at another airport is XC. The INTENT is experience in NAV, Planning, Communications, Weather.... Right.

I do enjoy how you even quote the reg wrong. The definition of XC for ratings:

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

Note the word "original" before "point of departure" that you conveniently left out in your quoted post, and apparently also conveniently leave out of your understanding of the regulations. FOR RATINGS, as long as you land somewhere greater than 50 nm away from your ORIGINAL point of departure, it's a XC. You don't have to like it, but it's pretty clear.

But you don't have to believe me. Believe the FAA. This exact question has been asked, and answered, here is one from 2008:

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/faa_migrate/interps/2008/Sisk_2008_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

Excerpt from the letter:
There is no requirement that any specific leg must be 50 nm. Moreover, a cross-country flight may include several legs that are less than a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure. Nevertheless, at least one leg of the cross-country flight, however long by itself, must include a point of landing that is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nm from the original point of departure (i.e. of the flight, not of that particular leg).

Note this letter is specifically addressing FOR RATINGS.

You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

 

[Pinecone]

Your opinions, beliefs and methods are so out of sync with standard and accepted practice that I don't even know where to begin. Or why I'm going to bother.

First, this is a valid XC In either direction.

View attachment 131345

You want a regulatory reference? That's easy. 61.1b, definition of Cross Country Time, ii(B). I'm not sure what else you're hoping to see. There's no need for more interpretations because it's in black and white. Original point of departure is PWA (or CLK), and as long as you eventually make it to the other end (CLK or PWA) and land, that's more than 50 nm away from your original point of departure. Pretty clear.

Now, would I send a student out on this to meet the XC requirements? Absolutely NOT. It wouldn't accomplish anything useful from a training aspect other than "follow I-40 and land at each airport you see". Actually, that might be good training from the aspect of entering and exiting the pattern, running climb/descent checklists, etc., so wouldn't be a bad idea for a dual lesson. But yeah, not a student solo XC flight.

However, if someone post-Private was to go up and fly this to build XC time for their instrument rating? Sure, no problem, what can I say? I complies with 61.1, regardless of my personal feelings about it.

And despite your preference for logging each leg on its own line, which is fine, it's also pretty standard, well-accepted practice to log this something like "PWA-RCE-RQO-2O8-OJA-CLK", writing as small as is necessary to cram it all in. No DPE or FSDO employee should have a problem with that.

And, if you were my instructor and told me that 0.7 of a valid XC flight I made didn't count, we'd no longer be flying together because obviously you let your personal preferences override the regulations.

Yeap. I reset the flight if I shut the engine down. Even if I do a full stop and taxi back and take off, that is still all part of the one flight.

I have NEVER heard of someone logging XC time as only part of a flight where touch and goes were performed as part of the flight.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Oh, PLEASE let us know when/where you will be asking the FAA while there. I and several others here would LOVE to watch that play out. Seriously, PLEASE.

Post it on YouTube please?

 

[midlifeflyer]

You want a regulatory reference? That's easy. 61.1b, definition of Cross Country Time, ii(B). I'm not sure what else you're hoping to see. There's no need for more interpretations because it's in black and white. Original point of departure is PWA (or CLK), and as long as you eventually make it to the other end (CLK or PWA) and land, that's more than 50 nm away from your original point of departure. Pretty clear.

Y'know. I just came across a thread on Facebook where a commercial applicant was rejected because they didn't meet the requirements. The distance between the original point of departure and the furthest landing was less than 250 NM. And the 100 NM night dual cross country was flown solo. According to the poster (the student, not the CFI), it was because the regulations are not worded properly.

The part that intrigued me was that they were told by the DPE this is being seen a lot. Basic requirements not being met. I know the DPE and asked about that. The DPE confirm this and said sometimes it's caused by a later recommending instructor not checking the logbook. "Mainly, though, it’s caused by people not knowing how to read a regulation."

That seems to be what's happening here. The simplest, most straightforward regulations being reinterpreted to say things they don't.

 

[Larry in TN]

my own after 15,000 hrs, 5 FAA pilot ratings, 4 typees, 2 Gnd, 2000 hrs dual both GA and Airline.

That is an appeal to authority fallacy.

I have more hours than you do, both airline and GA, and I disagree with many of your conclusions.

Do you find my argument convincing? No? That's why it's a fallacy.

 

[Lindberg]

I have things to do, I have with student then a trip.

This is not a sentence.

If you can't my position, legal, conservative then that is on you.

Also not a sentence.

I reject your opinion and my right to use my own after 15,000 hrs, 5 FAA pilot ratings, 4 typees, 2 Gnd, 2000 hrs dual both GA and Airline.

You reject your right to use your own opinion? This makes no sense.

I don't need to agree with you.

This is a sentence. And it's true!

Sorry. You are wasting time.

Not true.

I vetted this and got the answer I wanted and need.

Yes, it's clear that you only listen when you get the answer you want. But that's not how you learn.

I will still talk to my DPE's. Argue with yourself. Pilots of America never ceases to amaze me.

It is a truly amazing place!

 

[Lindberg]

".....as long as you eventually make it to the other end"? Where does it say that? You inserted your own words.

REG "Conducted in an appropriate aircraft. Includes a point of landing that is at least a straight line distance of more than 50 NM from the point of departure"

I admire how sure you are and the logic it took to get there. But it is wrong FOR RATINGS. If you are just logging XC for XC yes any flight at another airport is XC. The INTENT is experience in NAV, Planning, Communications, Weather.... Right.

Not my first time at radeo, pilot 39 yrs, instructor 34 yrs. Please talk to a CFI, DPE or local FSDO. Again your are trying to outsmart the FAR's. It is simple and intent is not skip across airports.

I am going to Oshkosh for whole week and I will ask the FAA. There is a difference between logging for a rating and for the grins and giggles. You can log anything you want as XC. The DPE can not accept it, and likely will. I know them. They read REGS in strict sense not creative ways.

"pretty standard, well-accepted practice"
And a bad practice, at least for low time pilots trying to log flight experience for a rating to allow DPE to read easily Log books have two airport pairs. YES. When you say "pretty standard practice", that is a logical fallacy, an appeal to authority, to assume that makes it right. When you were a kid and told your parents everyone was doing "it", and they replied if they jumped off a tall building would you do that? I am not taking your advice. Sorry.

Not to be a hypocrite I do log three airports in one line from time to time or not at all. No legal requirement to log unless it is for currency. However at +15K hrs and 5 FAA ratings my logging XC for a rating is long over. However I DO LOG dual given because I have to keep records of training I give. But I may get my glider CFI. Do as you like Sir but please don't post "AS LONG AS YOU GET TO THE END"... that is not in the REGS. The judge of what qualifies as XC for INST, COM ratings is per DPE, not you or me. I will ask a DPE if that is OK for you. Cheers

*you're

 

[flyingcheesehead]

flyingcheesehead, great reply. Some of the others are opinion and some snide remarks. Prove it show me in the regulations the LETTER of the law and intent?

See the link to the Sisk interpretation in post 33 above. Actually, don't just see it. Click the link and read the damn thing.

People are coming up with all kinds of creative interpretations that do NOT follow the INTENT of the REG... What do you think CROSS COUNTRY MEANS? Look it up. If the "circle" is holding as part of INST training fine. If it is a sneaky way to log XC without going XC I think you are in violation. YOU DO YOU.

Nope. I do what the FAA says to do. My opinion on the FARs is not relevant. The facts are.

So Cheesehead you say going to +50nm and doing 5 touch and goes and returning to departure is all cross country? I disagree. Read the definition FLIGHT 50nm (as measured not flown straight line distance). Yes? So you take off and land at same airport? Is that cross country (for sake of the a rating, e.g., Inst, Com). Yes? Yes.

For private, instrument, and commercial, you need a landing at least 50nm away from the original point of departure. For ATP, you don't need a landing. For general logging purposes, any time you land at an airport different from the one you departed from is good, though I think this only matters when it comes to meeting Part 135 and Part 121 experience requirements.

But, we are talking about the same agency that has three different definitions of "night" too... And that's why my logbook has flights with night time but no night takeoffs or landings, and why I sometimes have to turn on all the lights on my airplane on a flight that only gets logged as Day.

In the above example T/G pilot flies back to departure airport or another airport +50nm. That is cross country but not the 5 TG's staying in pattern. If they circuled in holding (for training or actual) one could argue it is fine. I would, it's not a Jedi mind trick to work around the Regs. In my case my students hold which takes at last 4 min per lap. IAP's take longer than a VFR pattern. We are talking intent not some "clever: way to log XC with out actually going XC. Again sorry to say YOUR opinion does not matter the FAA and DPE matter. If you proudly announce you turned ever 50nm XC into a 3 hr flight by circuiting VFR to "build XC time". I am pretty sure they would have you pack up and go. THIS IS FOR RATINGS. For a PVT pilot just logging times for grins and giggles it does not matter.

I agree, my opinion doesn't matter. NEITHER DOES YOURS. The FAA's matters. The DPE's doesn't matter either, though getting into a ****ing match with a DPE isn't generally productive.

Up to you to log hrs with a liberal interpretation w/o out precedent and "ruling" in writing by administration.

There's plenty of rulings in writing by the Administrator regarding logging cross country flight, and they don't all make sense, but they are the law and I'm not making them up. Let's look at a few:

1: You can legally log most of a triangle as XC even if you never go 50nm away from the first airport, if you just choose what to log on one line creatively. Van Zanen 2009 Glenn 2009
2: You can log XC even if you never make a 50nm leg, as long as there's at least one landing at least 50nm away from the original point of departure. Sisk 2008
3: You can log XC and PIC as a non-instrument-rated pilot when doing XC training flights for your IR. Haralson 2009
4: You canNOT log XC even if you are the acting PIC of a flight that would otherwise be XC unless two pilots are required for the entire flight. Gebhart 2009 Glenn 2009
5: You canNOT log XC of a flight no matter how long the distance is unless you are the one conducting the entire flight. Hilliard 2009

Does my student need that 0.3 hrs of XC T/G's? No. Why even add it in. If it can be even possibly argued (as I did) T/G's are not cross country then don't log it for a rating. What if the pilot did all the T/G's at the start of the XC vs at the destination airport? Would that be also all logged as XC? No, it does not meet the letter of the REG or the INTENT. Again I had a big pee pee match over another student flying with non CFI's and not being current (by \6 months) to carry passengers or having High Performance endorsement and logging it. Well the adult (he is 18) logged it. Again NOT a CFI and he was not qualified. This forum had all the experts come out and accuse me of dubious lineage. WHY is being conservative bad. Even if just TOTAL TIME it is useless time towards the rating he seeks.

You're free to NOT log anything you don't want to log, as long as you are able to demonstrate that you have the necessary experience for any ratings, and currency for any flight operations you choose to undertake. However, you seem to have quite a fixation on not letting other people log things they want to log in a perfectly legal fashion for some reason.

I had a student fly 25 nm (land pick up passenger, not XC) than 70 nm. Later coming back reverse route, dropping off pass and then going back to base. He LOGGED the whole thing as XC. The legs that were 25 nm NOT XC. At this point I don't care what you think. Sorry no offense. I understand you think it is OK? Prove it. Show me in REGS it is OK. That is the only thing that matters. It takes some Jedi mind trick and convoluted to take 50nm straight line is same as 25nm.

If you think reading the FAA's own interpretations is a "Jedi Mind Trick" you're going to be amazed when I show you my garage door opener.

I have things to do, I have with student then a trip. If you can't my position, legal, conservative then that is on you. I reject your opinion and my right to use my own after 15,000 hrs, 5 FAA pilot ratings, 4 typees, 2 Gnd, 2000 hrs dual both GA and Airline.

With all that experience, you must be trying really hard to be this wrong. Your opinion does not matter. Only the FAA's does.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I reset the flight if I shut the engine down. Even if I do a full stop and taxi back and take off, that is still all part of the one flight.

That's been my way of doing things. If I shut down, that's a completed flight and is logged on one line. If I don't, it's all part of one flight and logged on one line no matter how many places I may have landed.

I don't bother logging cross country time as I don't need it. (I did three flights from Topeka to England and Germany and Germany to northern Norway and Germany to Libya, and whole lot of flights from Taiwan to Vietnam and Bangkok to Diego Garcia.)

This is just a way I like to log things. There is no requirement to do it this way. As we all know, we only need to log things for currency or for a rating... I know lots of older pilots who log nothing at all.