Live rifle fire across an open runway

Daleandee

Daleandee

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Dale Andee
This was another one of those, "I wanna say something but I'm pretty sure it won't do any good" moments.

During a recent visit to a local town owned grass field several of us witnessed something a bit concerning. The local police have a pistol range just off one side of the field at the end of the hangar row. But on this day they were on the other side of the runway shooting rifles across the open runway at targets at the back of the pistol range. Thankfully there were no aircraft departing or landing at the time and I do not know if they had a radio to monitor traffic. Does this seem copacetic?

There were visitors there (this was during an EAA meeting) that seemed a bit troubled at what was happening as the sound of high powered rifle fire was attention getting. It's my guess that a small town airport can get away with this kind of stuff as they own the property and make the rules as to what is allowed on their property. So while it was troubling to see, my thinking is to leave this alone as that seemed to be the consensus of those that hangar there ... :dunno:

Thoughts?
 
Yes leave it alone. But next time before you schedule a meeting. Call and ask if they have range practice that day. It wouldn't take many complaints that they may close the airport and turn the whole thing into a tactical training field.
 
It’s not like a plane is going to fly faster than the bullet and get hit.
 
Daleandee said:
It's my guess that a small town airport can get away with this kind of stuff as they own the property and make the rules as to what is allowed on their property.
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Not to the extent you might think. The local town might own the land, but they don’t get to have a free for all for what activities occur on that land. If they aren’t federally funded, it loosens the gamut to a degree, but in either case, I just about guarantee the State’s aeronautics department wouldn’t approve of what you’re describing.
 
Salty said:
Do you think the police were aiming at aircraft?
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What difference does it make? Depends on just what they are shooting with for sites. With a scope or something that narrows down their focus, they could very much miss a plane entering the path of fire.
 
flyingron said:
What difference does it make? Depends on just what they are shooting with for sites. With a scope or something that narrows down their focus, they could very much miss a plane entering the path of fire.
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Unless the plane is going faster than a bullet, doesn’t much matter. If it’s not in the scope when the trigger is pulled, it’s not gonna get hit.
 
Salty said:
Unless the plane is going faster than a bullet, doesn’t much matter. If it’s not in the scope when the trigger is pulled, it’s not gonna get hit.
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********. The FOV of a scope is often something small like a few yards. At 60 MPH, an airplane will enter the FOV an reach the center in a tenth of a second. It takes roughly the same amount of time for a 1000 fpm bullet to go 100 yards and that doesn't include the shooters reaction time.
 
I wasn't there, but apparently had a local guy shooting rifles on his property.
All fine... except, when they missed the target it was directly across the runway, in line with the fuel tanks, and of course planes and people fueling.
The sheriff dept responded to the call, but acted like it was no big deal. Airport manager, (who is no longer there), was very frustrated.
So far, that's the last I heard of it, but I do think about it on occasion when fueling, and would be pretty nervous if I heard shots from anywhere.
 
As a former law enforcement firearms instructor as well as a pilot, that should be a no-go. Close the field via prior coordination (at least a month in advance) with the airport manager and file a NOTAM, or do the training elsewhere. If there is an opportunity for someone who is not part of the training event to be there and in a danger area, then there is also an opportunity to keep that from occurring. If it’s predictable, it’s preventable.

Yes, it can be a royal pain finding a range and setting up training, but we do need to not unnecessarily endanger or **** off the public. No way was the airport the only, or best, available range.
 
Eh…. Was it the safest thing to do? No. Was it making people at the EAA meeting uncomfortable? Sounds like yeah. But since it was an EAA meeting I’m guessing a large percentage of those folks drove to the meeting and are somewhat local. And being a small town, I’m sure if someone voiced their concerns to the supervisor/highest ranking LEO there, they would have stopped their target practice.

And then “good luck” to the folks driving away from that meeting to get home without some sort of traffic violation and most likely a fine. Small towns are great, as long as you don’t rock the boat.
 
I'm not a fan of gun ranges. No, I don't mean I don't want them to exist, they are just very restrictive, and for good reason. I'd prefer to do my shooting in a rural area where nobody cares and there is nothing to damage, and no nazi RSO's to call you out on picking a booger out of your nose without permission. That said, I just can't imagine a sanctioned shooting range overlapping any public transit corridor, whether it be a runway or a roadway, or a train track, without some positive control measures being in effect, like a NOTAM, or a road closure, or a train re-routing.

I don't think the OP's scenario is unsafe, but it is outside of the standard allowed procedure box.
 
Salty said:
Unless the plane is going faster than a bullet, doesn’t much matter. If it’s not in the scope when the trigger is pulled, it’s not gonna get hit.
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??? Your statement is very much dependent on distance between the rifle and the runway. The field of view in a scope suitable for longer ranges can easily preclude view of an aircraft that could intercept a round. I shoot long range almost weekly and the time it takes for a round to reach the target from my muzzle is significant….significant enough that an object traveling at 50kts could cross the bullet path even though it is not visible in the scope at the time of the trigger squeeze.

Edit- @flyingron beat me to the keyboard.
 
Are they shooting across a runway, into a berm?
Seems like a few hours of dirtwork and they could be shooting parallel to the runway instead, which would be many multiples of safety better!
 
As long as the shooters had a spotter watching for air traffic, it would not concern me too much.
 
Ed Haywood said:
As long as the shooters had a spotter watching for air traffic, it would not concern me too much.
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Would you be any more concerned if they were shooting across a lightly-used public road, as long as they were using spotters?

Just seems like a situation that could be so easily changed from "very low risk" to "essentially zero risk" (by setting up somewhere that doesn't involve firing across an in-use strip of pavement) that it's not really reasonable to accept the "very low risk" solution. The history books are full of "very low risk" events resulting in injury that make you think, "Why did they ever think this was a good idea?"
 
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I played golf one time on a course where they were also shooting at trap targets. always fun to hear boom sticks while you're trying to tee off, then hearing all the pellets hitting the trees next to you. I didn't mind. sht my golf game was so bad I prob deserved to be shot.
 
eman1200 said:
I played golf one time on a course where they were also shooting at trap targets. always fun to hear boom sticks while you're trying to tee off, then hearing all the pellets hitting the trees next to you. I didn't mind. sht my golf game was so bad I prob deserved to be shot.
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Screenshot 2024-08-06 074009.png
Yes, this one. The business labeled "Maita Toyota of Sacramento" was a trap range before it became a car dealership. And yes, they fired out over the course.
 
eman1200 said:
I played golf one time on a course where they were also shooting at trap targets. always fun to hear boom sticks while you're trying to tee off, then hearing all the pellets hitting the trees next to you. I didn't mind. sht my golf game was so bad I prob deserved to be shot.
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I've shot guns on a golf course as part of a golf tournament, lol.
 
Jim_R said:
Would you be any more concerned if they were shooting across a lightly-used public road, as long as they were using spotters?

Just seems like a situation that could be so easily changed from "very low risk" to "essentially zero risk" (by setting up somewhere that doesn't involve firing across an in-use strip of pavement) that it's not really reasonable to accept the "very low risk" solution. The history books are full of "very low risk" events resulting in injury that make you think, "Why did they ever think this was a good idea?"
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You places yer bets and takes yer chances. We've done it in rural Kansas where we're shooting across a rural road with nothing but farmland for miles in that direction. Just use a spotter to ensure there's nothing coming down the gravel road. The chances of an accident aren't zero, but close enough.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I've shot guns on a golf course as part of a golf tournament, lol.
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Slightly OT, but my favorite sign ever was on the golf course at Hickam AFB in Hawaii. One of the tee boxes was right next to the runway, and it was not unusual to have 747's taxi past at about 100 yards range. A very large sign said "WARNING: It is illegal to drive golf balls at airplanes."

You know that sign was not put up to address a hypothetical event.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Slightly OT, but my favorite sign ever was on the golf course at Hickam AFB in Hawaii. One of the tee boxes was right next to the runway, and it was not unusual to have 747's taxi past at about 100 yards range. A very large sign said "WARNING: It is illegal to drive golf balls at airplanes."

You know that sign was not put up to address a hypothetical event.
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We had a few aprons at Lakenheath that if the F-15s were left out on the apron for any length of time, and especially over the weekend, we would find dents all over the top of the aircraft that would resemble hail damage due to being golf ball targets.

IMG_1677.png
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Slightly OT, but my favorite sign ever was on the golf course at Hickam AFB in Hawaii. One of the tee boxes was right next to the runway, and it was not unusual to have 747's taxi past at about 100 yards range. A very large sign said "WARNING: It is illegal to drive golf balls at airplanes."

You know that sign was not put up to address a hypothetical event.
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Well, at least in our tournament, the drive off the tee box was done with an AR-15 using blank cartridges and a golf ball launcher threaded onto the barrel. Fun, but harder than you'd think to aim/control a golf ball that is more akin to a to a knuckleball thrown out at absurd velocities.
 
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