Is adding vor worth it?

Will Kumley

Will Kumley

Line Up and Wait
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Will
Updated the thread with a follwup in post 63. https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/is-adding-vor-worth-it.142456/post-3541441

With everyone switching navigation to gps centric stuff I’m curious if adding old school vor ability is worth it. We’re looking at a plane that currently has no gps or vor/ils system installed. If I get the plane I really don’t want to ruin the classic plane with a full glass panel or anything. But I’m thinking step 1 would be a comm/nav unit with a vor/ils indicator but question if it’s already obsolete.
 
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If VFR, don’t put anything in. Your iPad is good enough. All I’d need is a COM radio and if it had monitor mode I’d only need one.

IFR, I’d want a backup to GPS. If you have a way to do the 30 day VOR check near you then I would say that 1 ILS-capable NAV radio should be enough. Heck, even this all-in-one unit would do the trick.
https://www.valavionics.com/ins-429.html
 
It depends on what the goal for the aircraft is. For me, one good Com radio and an intercom keeps me satisfied.
 
I wouldn't, if you lived around here and were flying VFR. Because it's impossible to get lost here VFR, more or less, and we don't have much GPS unavailability, and it seems like most of the VOR's are broken most of the time anyway. IF you live someplace where it's flat as a pancake, where there are lots of VORs, and where the military routinely wrecks GPS, then maybe I would.
 
If you’re trying to get by as cheap as you can, I don’t see a reason for it if your flying doesn’t warrant the use of it. Lots of VOR’s are decommissioned already, so the only use it would provide is for an ILS or LOC. If you’re not utilizing those kinds of procedures, then no. Why buy something you don’t need?
 
I will go against the tide and say that I always like to have at least one kind of navigation device installed on the aircraft. While many VORs are being decommissioned, many are staying as part of the minimum operational network (MON).
 
Depends on what you're wanting to do.

Vfr only? Not necessary at all.

"Light" ifr (not shooting approaches in actual, mostly just getting through a layer)? Nice to have, but not necessary.

"Real", going places, flying approaches ifr? Yeah I want one. I don't want to be stranded with no navigation in the event of a gps outage.

I did go to an airport in Minnesota a couple months ago that broadcast its awos on the VOR audio channel. That's the first time I had seen that, and to be fair I already had the info from adsb.
 
Will Kumley said:
With everyone switching navigation to gps centric stuff I’m curious if adding old school vor ability is worth it. We’re looking at a plane that currently has no gps or vor/ils system installed. If I get the plane I really don’t want to ruin the classic plane with a full glass panel or anything. But I’m thinking step 1 would be a comm/nav unit with a vor/ils indicator but question if it’s already obsolete.
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What kind of airplane? A Nav and a CDI were very common in many. It wouldn’t ruin the classic look on those. You might be just filling a hole in the panel that now is just covered. Worth it?? Do you think you would have any use for it? That you even asked the question indicates maybe you might think so. On the subject of ‘worth it’, that’s a conversation to have with your piggy bank.
 
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dmspilot said:
I will go against the tide and say that I always like to have at least one kind of navigation device installed on the aircraft. While many VORs are being decommissioned, many are staying as part of the minimum operational network (MON).
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I consider eyes looking outside one kind of navigation device. :)
 
If you plan on doing your instrument rating in this aircraft, you will need one.
 
I routinely use both gps and vor/dme when traveling on a long flight. It gives me another source of situational awareness and keeps me from getting bored. I am an old school pilot...If I have dual navcoms I try to use them and insure that they are working properly. Like others have posted...depends on your intentions as to whether to add vor capability.
 
Not so much a question of obsolete as of utility. A GPS is far more useful than a VOR. Fly direct to any point vs tower to tower.

If VFR, no need for panel mount. Get a portable GPS or an ADS-B In box paired to a tablet. Mount on a RAM ball wherever it fits. Use your phone as backup.

The risk of GPS unavailability is overblown. If you understand how GPS jamming works, you realize the chance of being stranded or losing guidance in the air is wildly remote.
 
@Rgbeard haven't you said you see gps unavailability fairly regularly in your neighborhood?

I haven't seen many gps outage notams lately. Are they still fairly common on the coasts?
 
every coupl'a years I dial in a vor for funsies to see if I remember how to use a vor (spoiler alert, I do). uh, I mean, uh, every 30 days I dial in a vor for my vor checks. yeaahhhhh, that's the ticket.
 
Ed Haywood said:
The risk of GPS unavailability is overblown. If you understand how GPS jamming works, you realize the chance of being stranded or losing guidance in the air is wildly remote.
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Maybe, but I've had it. A year or so ago, at about 7000 feet over SW Oklahoma, for about 50 nm. Other aircraft were reporting it too. Fortunately it was clear VMC. ATC just gave me a "fly present heading" until I could get it back. I just flew straight for 50 nm and it eventually came back.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Not so much a question of obsolete as of utility. A GPS is far more useful than a VOR. Fly direct to any point vs tower to tower.

If VFR, no need for panel mount. Get a portable GPS or an ADS-B In box paired to a tablet. Mount on a RAM ball wherever it fits. Use your phone as backup.

The risk of GPS unavailability is overblown. If you understand how GPS jamming works, you realize the chance of being stranded or losing guidance in the air is wildly remote.
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i guess you don't fly anywhere out west, i have had it happen twice in the last 2 years. lost them just east of la and got them back about dallas. we lost 1 gps downgraded signal on the other, the 737's were loosing both.
 
unsafervguy said:
i guess you don't fly anywhere out west, i have had it happen twice in the last 2 years. lost them just east of la and got them back about dallas. we lost 1 gps downgraded signal on the other, the 737's were loosing both.
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The problem was on your end. It is not physically possible to jam such a large area. Or maybe there was a WAAS issue. But that just degrades accuracy to 10 meters, plenty accurate for navigation.
 
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I think adding ils capabilities is worth it if you don’t have the capability for gps approaches installed. It’s the cheapest way to have an “out” if you ever get stuck and need to get through the clouds back to a runway. Gps is better, but more expensive
 
I have a com/ nav radio along with a panel mounted portable GPS . The radio came with the plane when I purchased it ,I don’t think I would purchase one new.
 
Will Kumley said:
With everyone switching navigation to gps centric stuff I’m curious if adding old school vor ability is worth it. We’re looking at a plane that currently has no gps or vor/ils system installed. If I get the plane I really don’t want to ruin the classic plane with a full glass panel or anything. But I’m thinking step 1 would be a comm/nav unit with a vor/ils indicator but question if it’s already obsolete.
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You need to tell us whether you will be flying IFR or not. For VFR, no question it's unneccessary. For IFR, it's a bail-out device to back up GPS and you will have to choose your own risk level.
 
Jim K said:
I did go to an airport in Minnesota a couple months ago that broadcast its awos on the VOR audio channel. That's the first time I had seen that, and to be fair I already had the info from adsb.
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AVP does the same. It was confusing my first time there. Kept trying to twist the COM dial. lol. Eventually I realized it needed the NAV.
 
I've flown VFR all over the Northwest with nothing more than a handheld radio and an iPad with foreflight.
 
As long as you have Marker Beacons on your audio panel you’re good…
No - you won’t need MB’s either…
 
I removed the VOR receiver from my plane, unnecessary weight.

But if you really want to keep in the classic panel scheme, screw the VOR, install an ADF, and you can listen to AM radio and pretend it's 1965...
 
Ed Haywood said:
The problem was on your end. It is not physically possible to jam such a large area. Or maybe there was a WAAS issue. But that just degrades accuracy to 10 meters, plenty accurate for navigation.
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BS!

if it was "on our end" how come 6 different airlines, with aircraft from two manufactures were loosing GPS over two centers sectors. also i guess the FAA publishes things like this just for fun. https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2023/Apr/FTBRNC_23-24_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf notice that it covers a 514 mile circle.

fact is, the military can and does jam gps signals.
 
Here is the current panel.
upload_2023-4-16_17-51-49.jpeg

If the prebuy inspection and title search go well the initial plan is to fly it and enjoy it using my ipad and a stratux for a while. It already has ads-b out installed. Future desires may include setting it up for ifr training, but again, don't want to go full glass or anything crazy like that and this would be a project down the road. It's a PA22-108 that appears to have been well cared for.
 
unsafervguy said:
BS!

if it was "on our end" how come 6 different airlines, with aircraft from two manufactures were loosing GPS over two centers sectors. also i guess the FAA publishes things like this just for fun. https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2023/Apr/FTBRNC_23-24_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf notice that it covers a 514 mile circle.

fact is, the military can and does jam gps signals.
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Yes, but they cannot SELECTIVELY jam GPS signals. If you are getting jammed, then so is everyone else within LOS and range of the transmitters. Air and ground. Airliners, GA, iPhones, cops, fire, ambulance, car navs ... everyone.

Stop and think about what you are saying for a minute. You are claiming the military jammed about 25% of the country for several hours. That is tens of millions of receivers. But only YOU and a few airliners had issues. Riiight.

And the military does not jam gps signals on a whim. Just like weapons, missiles, bombs, lasers, and other dangerous things, they are employed in ranges under strict controls. That's what prohibited and restricted areas are for. NOTAMS are filed and coordination with ATC is done. Nobody is surprised.
 
Dana said:
I removed the VOR receiver from my plane, unnecessary weight.

But if you really want to keep in the classic panel scheme, screw the VOR, install an ADF, and you can listen to AM radio and pretend it's 1965...
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Dang, ADF, I didn't say I wanted to be in the Howard Hughes days of flight. Just that I don't want to ruin a classic early 60s plane with a bunch of fancy glass.
 
Eric Brunelle said:
As long as you have Marker Beacons on your audio panel you’re good…
No - you won’t need MB’s either…
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Hey, I still pick up marker beacons in my area while I'm flying. Not that I do anything with it, just that I've flown over them before and got the beacon to go off completely by accident I might add as I was flying VFR.
 
wilkersk said:
I've flown VFR all over the Northwest with nothing more than a handheld radio and an iPad with foreflight.
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The initial plan is to use an Ipad and a stratux just like I do in rentals. BUt I wouldn't mind a slightly updated panel in the future just in case I put myself in a situation where I need more than an AI and DG.
 
For VFR flight you don't really need it.

For IFR flights, you should probably have it so that you can fly more than one type of approach.

Worth noting that, last I knew, most of the popular GPS navigators came with a VOR receiver built-in so if you add one you're most likely adding both.
 
luvflyin said:
What kind of airplane? A Nav and a CDI were very common in many. It wouldn’t ruin the classic look on those. You might be just filling a hole in the panel that now is just covered. Worth it?? Do you think you would have any use for it? That you even asked the question indicates maybe you might think so. On the subject of ‘worth it’, that’s a conversation to have with your piggy bank.
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It is completely possible that a nav and vor indicator were removed in the past and I'm not opposed to the look of a vor indicator in the panel. What I am opposed to at this moment would be a giant digital panel in place of the radio stack. Call me old school if you want but I equate it to putting a dvd player in a 1940s Ford.
 
Will Kumley said:
Here is the current panel.
View attachment 116628

If the prebuy inspection and title search go well the initial plan is to fly it and enjoy it using my ipad and a stratux for a while. It already has ads-b out installed. Future desires may include setting it up for ifr training, but again, don't want to go full glass or anything crazy like that and this would be a project down the road. It's a PA22-108 that appears to have been well cared for.
Click to expand...

Ok, looking at that panel I'm thinking this is going to be a VFR aircraft? If that's the case I'd install a USB charger port in the panel and just get a portable GPS/ADS-B in receiver and an iPad. Certified panel avionics are stupidly expensive and you're looking at another 50-100% over the cost of the unit to get it installed.
 
Does the military need to completely turn off GPS for its testing and training or is the military capable of simply reducing the accuracy of the signal down to approx 100 meters?
With the accuracy reduced to plus or minus 100 meters, would typical automotive receivers even notice the difference?
On a WAAS receiver, would the receiver indicate unreliable and stop providing data? I believe that is a function of WAAS?

I think it is common knowledge the military has the capability to jam a large area however the actual method to do so is (hopefully?) classified. The Military Red Flag training operation at Nellis in early 2018 was an example of this.

In an actual war, it would be foolish to think the GPS satellites would not be an early target. The US Military has to maintain the capability to fight and win whether they have GPS or not. Not only the theoretical capability but they have to actually test and train under those conditions if the desire is to win.

Solar activity impacts GPS from time to time. Following is a report from 10/02/2022 for a significant disruption from solar activity:
Geomagnetic activity (Kp=5) disturbed the ionosphere causing elevated GIVE values. This resulted in significant degradation of LPV200 service coverage in Canada from 22:30 UTC on 10/2 to 01:55 UTC on 10/3. The elevated GIVE values also caused moderate degradation of LPV service coverage in Canada from 23:15 UTC on 10/2 to 23:45 UTC on 10/2. The elevated GIVE values also caused minor degradation of LPV200 service coverage in Alaska from 00:55 UTC to 01:05 UTC on 10/3.
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Ed Haywood said:
The risk of GPS unavailability is overblown. If you understand how GPS jamming works, you realize the chance of being stranded or losing guidance in the air is wildly remote.
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That may be an accurate statement in the US, today. It would not be accurate in many other countries in the world today. And it may not be accurate in the US in the future.

- Martin
 
I have never liked the idea of keeping all your eggs in one basket.

I doesn't hurt to stay proficient flying VOR's. Being able to fly 20 miles by pilotage is also a challenge if you never practice.
 
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