IRS Building Hit By Small Plane

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Again, all of the "terrorist" attacks by light aircraft in the US (if you can call them that. This guy wasn't exactly Al Quaeda) were failures in terms of harming people. We'll see if this is even a success in causing material damage, as I don't know how badly the building was damaged. Clearly, he could have done more with a perfectly legal shotgun, or a pickup with the back full of perfectly legal gas cans.

The attack using jet liners killed thousands. The attack using a rental trucks killed hundreds in OKC, and I don't know how many at the WTC. Attacks with handguns routinely injure scores. Light aircraft are lousy WMDs, they generate headlines but little more.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

SCCutler said:
Scott:

Not "tin-foil" at all; just recognition of some core realities.
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Along those same lines, it's just clicked in my memory that I recently saw a story about something else, where the "journalists" were reading through message boards related to the issue and posting various users' comments about the incident. I can't remember what the story was about, but I do know that it wasn't something frivolous like the color underwear that Michael Jackson was buried in.

Has anyone thought about that here? We're in the "confidential forum" right now - does someone have to be a member to see in here? If not, I suppose it might not be a bad idea to keep in mind that anyone might be able to waltz in and read "real pilots'" thoughts.

Even if you do have to be a member, who's to say there's not an eeeeevil journalist in our midst? If I were some wise-ass hotshot investigative journalist, that's what I'd be lurking message boards related to my subject du jour....

Just a thought....

Also, instead of wearing a tinfoil hat, I just live in a house with a metal roof. Keeps them out of my dog's head, too. :)
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

wbarnhill said:
WTF is this person smoking. Ok, so let's say you put a TFR over the entire US. Every plane has to be in contact with ATC. Fine, whatever.

How exactly would that stop an incident like this one from happening? When you have a pilot, who could conceivably adhere to all the rules, it doesn't matter at that point. He starts descending towards the target, and you decide to launch fighters. Do you really think you'll make it to him before he makes it to the ground?

Unless you require an air marshal on every flight that has a gun to the head of the pilot (might as well do the same for every car and truck on the road too), you're not going to prevent 100% of lunatics from doing lunatic things.

:mad2:
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I'd be hesitant about making this point. I say that because: if that step won't remedy the supposed danger presented, what step would?

Seems to me that pointing out that a proposed solution won't work means that there needs to be a different, presumptively harsher, solution.

In other words, my reasoning is: "well golly gee, if making everybody check in with ATC won't do any good, maybe we'd better just ground the GA airplanes permanently."
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Another dagger into the heart of GA. I can almost hear our planes depreciating.

What a tool. :(
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Today, this jerk just changed GA permanently.
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You know...just like how that kid that crashed into the building down in Florida, etc marked the end of GA? Hell he even mentioned Bin Laden in his note and that didn't change anything and we had a much more labile and reactionary (read as: "unstable") president in office at the time.

Let's not be rash about this...we've been through crap like this before.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

smigaldi said:
Ok here is my tinfoil thought for the day.

When will the FBI and other agencies start data mining PoA, especially the SZ, to see if there are any pilots who are expressing an anti-government attitude. Then the powers that be will add these guys to 'watch lists' and perhaps they will get searched like Ted recently did!!
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You gotta wonder, when this guy posted that diatribe on the Internet, how he didn't end up with a couple of suits outside his home to ask some questions or watch him. I thought the NSA mined electronic communications for danger signs?
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

....and perhaps they will get searched like Ted recently did!!
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You mean like they've been doing to airplanes since the 1970s when cocaine trafficking started in earnest? Seriously...I think people overreact to crap like that. If they want to search my damn plane, I see no problem with it. That's why I don't keep explosives, drugs, weapons, etc in my aircraft. It's a little inconvenient but it's not anymore so than getting pulled over for a burnt out license plate light.
 
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Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

wbarnhill said:
Unless you require an air marshal on every flight that has a gun to the head of the pilot (might as well do the same for every car and truck on the road too), you're not going to prevent 100% of lunatics from doing lunatic things.
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That only works if the air marshal on your flight isn't a nut job who shoots you and then crashes your plane into a building.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

TangoWhiskey said:
Well, there's one Republican I'll vote out of office.
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You'll be fighting big money and big media: Linkage.

http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/Michael_McCaul

In 1991, he went to a gala at the Air and Space Museum where he met and danced with oceanographer Linda Mays. The two were married in 1993 and McCaul became son-in-law to Lowry Mays, CEO of Clear Channel Communications and a prominent ally of George H.W. Bush.Herman, Ken “Different paths led GOP rivals to riches; Streusand, McCaul draw from business, family fortunes in race” Austin American-Statesman, April 9, 2004(5)
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Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Obi Heed Kenobi said:
I'd be hesitant about making this point. I say that because: if that step won't remedy the supposed danger presented, what step would?

Seems to me that pointing out that a proposed solution won't work means that there needs to be a different, presumptively harsher, solution.

In other words, my reasoning is: "well golly gee, if making everybody check in with ATC won't do any good, maybe we'd better just ground the GA airplanes permanently."
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Unfortunately we're damned if you do damned if you don't. We say the harsh laws won't make it safer, they go for harsher laws. We don't say anything about the harsh laws and they'll never go away.

Sigh.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

wbarnhill said:
Unfortunately we're damned if you do damned if you don't. We say the harsh laws won't make it safer, they go for harsher laws. We don't say anything about the harsh laws and they'll never go away.

Sigh.
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That's about the size of it. Until you get into constitutional protections, the gov't giveth and the gov't taketh.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

SteveinMichigan said:
You know...just like how that kid that crashed into the building down in Florida, etc marked the end of GA? Hell he even mentioned Bin Laden in his note and that didn't change anything and we had a much more labile and reactionary (read as: "unstable") president in office at the time.

Let's not be rash about this...we've been through crap like this before.
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Well, it did have some effect... another straw on the camel's back, so to speak. That event, and this latest one, will be brought up every time some developer is trying to rally support to close a small airport, and every time politicians are looking to put more restrictions on us.

I can guarantee that it will be one more thing people ask me about, knowing I am a pilot... and I can also guarantee that my response will be educational. I try to be diplomatic, even in response to wisecracks (who else here has heard, as the first comment by someone who finds out that they are a pilot, that "you could do a 9/11 in that thing"?)... but I let them know that fear-mongering makes me angry, and non-pilots should be angry too, because they are being manipulated.

It bears repeating that GA is not the most favored or most effective means of implementing terror, murder, suicide, or even smuggling... and fancy IDs,checkpoints and meddlesome agents, more fees or taxes, more certification hurdles, and more controlled airspaces will really not prevent even freak events like this from happening again. It bears repeating often, and with some measure of outrage.

We need to be as rash as the opposition, especially as we are a tiny minority by comparison.

But I agree, this crash itself is not some kind of death knell; there's no reason to panic or give up.
 
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Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Skip Miller said:
The NY Times has printed an article covering this event. I find it quite refreshing that it avoids all of the anti-GA hysteria. -Skip

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...l?pagewanted=2&_r=1&sq=austin tx&st=cse&scp=3
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Probably because the NYT is a real newspaper, unlike USA Today, who pronounced,

As it dove out of the sky toward an IRS field office Thursday morning, Joseph Stack's small single-engine Piper Dakota became a screaming 3,000-pound missile.

Gaak.


Trapper John
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Trapper John said:
Probably because the NYT is a real newspaper, unlike USA Today, who pronounced,

As it dove out of the sky toward an IRS field office Thursday morning, Joseph Stack's small single-engine Piper Dakota became a screaming 3,000-pound missile.

Gaak.


Trapper John
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SIGH!
McRAG!
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Trapper John said:
Probably because the NYT is a real newspaper, unlike USA Today, who pronounced,

As it dove out of the sky toward an IRS field office Thursday morning, Joseph Stack's small single-engine Piper Dakota became a screaming 3,000-pound missile.

Gaak.


Trapper John
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Let me guess: Thomas Frank - tool for the airlines and TSA?
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Yep, Thomas Frank. USA Today should permanantly furlough him for his sensational and biased reporting.

And the article gets worse...

McCaul, the area's congressman, agrees.

"This little Piper caused devastating damage — it almost brought the entire building down," he said.

McCaul added that he fears terrorists will see the damage Stack caused and plan copycat attacks.

"I think it's been on the radar of al-Qaeda and others," he said of using private planes in terror attacks. "This just re-emphasizes the fact that it can be done, and they may attempt to do the same thing."

When the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) proposed the first security regulations for private airplanes in late 2008, it exempted 150,000 small airplanes that it did not consider to be threats.
............
Private aviation "does not present a serious homeland security vulnerability requiring TSA to increase regulatory oversight," Inspector General Richard Skinner said in a report.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano disputed the conclusion.
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Nappy's comments just add to the sensationalist fire.:mad2:

It really is time to do something about USA Today. They pretty much ignore AOPA.
 
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Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Just sent an email to our wonderful congresscritter. It will be interesting to see if he even takes the time to reply.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

wbarnhill said:
Unless you require an air marshal on every flight that has a gun to the head of the pilot (might as well do the same for every car and truck on the road too), you're not going to prevent 100% of lunatics from doing lunatic things.
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..and the day will come where the air marshal is the lunatic. There simply is nothing you can do to stop the angry insane people from causing damage.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

jesse said:
..and the day will come where the air marshal is the lunatic. There simply is nothing you can do to stop the angry insane people from causing damage.
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You think the DHS employee screening would let someone that is unstable and a threat through???!!! Shocked I am at such an allegation! :rofl::rofl:
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Explaining to him that GA aircraft are not a threat, as he so blatantly put it in the news. And asked him to please avoid any heat of the moment decisions on this issue. Also that I would like to discuss the issue with him further along with all of my contact information.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

bigred177 said:
Explaining to him that GA aircraft are not a threat, as he so blatantly put it in the news. And asked him to please avoid any heat of the moment decisions on this issue. Also that I would like to discuss the issue with him further along with all of my contact information.
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Whew, that is good news, was hoping it was not a Joe Stack type of letter!! :D:D:D
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

smigaldi said:
Whew, that is good news, was hoping it was not a Joe Stack type of letter!! :D:D:D
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Haha no. But you should see my post I just posted in Hangar Talk about a phone call I got this morning.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

bigred177 said:
Explaining to him that GA aircraft are not a threat, as he so blatantly put it in the news. And asked him to please avoid any heat of the moment decisions on this issue. Also that I would like to discuss the issue with him further along with all of my contact information.
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Good for you! Our representatives need to hear from us.

Here's a link for contact info for the rest of us:

http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml


Trapper John
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

bigred177 said:
Explaining to him that GA aircraft are not a threat, as he so blatantly put it in the news.
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I'm not sure that's true. GA sucks at large or hard buildings, but apparently, with enough planning and luck it seems medium buildings are at risk.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Well, I didn't say it just like that. I basically said that we need to worry more about the individual, not the means he uses to act. And that more regulation is not the answer. He could have brought the whole building down if he decided to use a truck instead. But with his plane he killed one person.
 
Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

We need to be as rash as the opposition, especially as we are a tiny minority by comparison.
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"Rash" is not a good thing. Up front, fact-based and logical is what will stave off problems. Acting like a bunch of spoiled children with attitude problems will not get us anywhere. This is why we need to be vocal, but in an organized and proactive fashion. Scrambling in multiple directions without coordination will get us nowhere.

BTW, I am scheduled to attend a small event in a couple of weeks with two congressional members scheduled to attend. I will do my best to get a chance to talk to them about this matter and try to see if they are willing to lend support to us.
 
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