IRS Building Hit By Small Plane

[bigred177]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Seems like I read something last night saying they still had not actually found the pilot's body. That he was just presumed dead. I may have missed something, but wouldn't that be something if he successfully bailed and escaped while everyone was watching the plane fly into a building. The IRS is threatening to take the plane so he says here you go and escapes taxes now because he's "dead".

 

[SteveinIndy]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Seems like I read something last night saying they still had not actually found the pilot's body. That he was just presumed dead.

Having worked several plane crashes, it's not unusual to no find all of the body until you begin the teardown of the aircraft. This is especially the case in the event of extremely prolonged fire exposure. It's quite possible to nearly fully cremate a body in heavy fire conditions like this. There was one crash in Colorado last year, where the body of the last passenger (whom no one knew was on the plane) was not found for several days because of the aircraft being so badly mangled.

The final point I can make is just because the media hasn't been told, doesn't mean they haven't found anything. When I was a deputy coroner, we frequently left the media out in the cold when it came to even mundane details figuring it was none of their business.

 

[bigred177]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

I figured something like this was probably the case. I was just being dumb. That would be a heckuva master plan though if it actually worked.

 

[John Collins]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Has anyone found evidence that he had a pilot's certificate? I see the airplane in the registry, but can't find anything about a pilot certificate under his name.

 

[bigred177]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

There was a news story that showed a person with the first and middle names transposed that was an instrument rated private pilot.

 

[kevin47881]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

It really is time to do something about USA Today. They pretty much ignore AOPA.

Who doesn't?

 

[wsuffa]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Seems like I read something last night saying they still had not actually found the pilot's body. That he was just presumed dead. I may have missed something, but wouldn't that be something if he successfully bailed and escaped while everyone was watching the plane fly into a building. The IRS is threatening to take the plane so he says here you go and escapes taxes now because he's "dead".

Given that the pictures on the Austin Amer. Statesman showed parts of the plane (including the engine) outside the building, it may be quite difficult to find him.

 

[wsuffa]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Well, that didn't take long....

Link

 

[westslopeco]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Well, that didn't take long....

Link

Wow, I am speechless...

 

[John Collins]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

There was a news story that showed a person with the first and middle names transposed that was an instrument rated private pilot.

I can't locate his name in the database and I don't think it is there.

There are 55 pilots with the last name of Stack in the airman database. None of them have his first name Joseph and middle name of Andrew or anything close, in any order. I don't think he had a pilot certificate.

The aircraft is identified in the AC registry as a Piper PA28-236 N2889D and is registered in the name of Joseph A. Stack.

 

[rottydaddy]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

"Rash" is not a good thing. Up front, fact-based and logical is what will stave off problems. Acting like a bunch of spoiled children with attitude problems will not get us anywhere. This is why we need to be vocal, but in an organized and proactive fashion. Scrambling in multiple directions without coordination will get us nowhere.

BTW, I am scheduled to attend a small event in a couple of weeks with two congressional members scheduled to attend. I will do my best to get a chance to talk to them about this matter and try to see if they are willing to lend support to us.

You're right, "rash" is the wrong word. "Vocal" is better. I guess I meant to say we need to be as determined and as organized as those who profit from this fear-mongering.

Good luck with those reps... at the very least, you should be able to remind them (with facts and logic, in a proactive way) who they work for.

 

[Steve]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Two comments.

1. Can we get the title of this thread changed to reflect the reality of the situation. Might reduce any hysteria the netbots might generate among the uninformed.

2. The AP took another whack at GA today. This is being picked up by the local papers

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/19/AR2010021904474.html

Be sure to comment when it shows up in yours.

 

[Unregistered]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

There are 55 pilots with the last name of Stack in the airman database. None of them have his first name Joseph and middle name of Andrew or anything close, in any order. I don't think he had a pilot certificate.

The aircraft is identified in the AC registry as a Piper PA28-236 N2889D and is registered in the name of Joseph A. Stack.

True, but searching on Andrew Stack turns up two entries, an Andrew Michael Stack and this one:

ANDREW JOSEPH STACK III

Address

Address is not available

Medical

Medical Class: Third Medical Date: 5/2009

# MUST WEAR CORR LENSES & POSSESS GLASSES FOR NEAR & INTRM VISION.

Certificates
1 of 1


DOI: 12/17/2000
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Rating(s):
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE


Maybe he also goes by Joseph Andrew and registered his plane in that name.
All guesses of course, especially since there's no address given.

 

[azure]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Whoops, that was me. Forgot to log in.

 

[SCCutler]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Two comments.

1. Can we get the title of this thread changed to reflect the reality of the situation. Might reduce any hysteria the netbots might generate among the uninformed.

2. The AP took another whack at GA today. This is being picked up by the local papers

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/19/AR2010021904474.html

Be sure to comment when it shows up in yours.

It came up in Dallas - already thrown in my comment.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/022010dntexplane.41ef345.html

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Along those same lines, it's just clicked in my memory that I recently saw a story about something else, where the "journalists" were reading through message boards related to the issue and posting various users' comments about the incident. I can't remember what the story was about, but I do know that it wasn't something frivolous like the color underwear that Michael Jackson was buried in.

Has anyone thought about that here? We're in the "confidential forum" right now - does someone have to be a member to see in here?

No. The entire world, including Google, sees here. I've asked for a confidential forum in the past for discussing this type of thing, but Scott calls me "elitist" louder and louder until it doesn't go anywhere.

We really do need to get off the front porch occasionally, especially when the media's on the lawn.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

2. The AP took another whack at GA today. This is being picked up by the local papers

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/19/AR2010021904474.html

Be sure to comment when it shows up in yours.

Here's a great post-incident pro-GA article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/airplanes-dont-kill-peopl_b_469550.html

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

No. The entire world, including Google, sees here. I've asked for a confidential forum in the past for discussing this type of thing, but Scott calls me "elitist" louder and louder until it doesn't go anywhere.

We really do need to get off the front porch occasionally, especially when the media's on the lawn.

Maybe, if the media are looking for information, they can possibly see the pro-GA side of the story from this forum. Most of the comments in this thread are positive.

 

[ScottM]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

No. The entire world, including Google, sees here. I've asked for a confidential forum in the past for discussing this type of thing, but Scott calls me "elitist" louder and louder until it doesn't go anywhere.

We really do need to get off the front porch occasionally, especially when the media's on the lawn.

If you are going to throw mud you should at least make sure you are truthful.

You want a public PoA and a private PoA forum. Two forums with the same focus but one that is invisible from the search engines. IOW Hangar Talk Public is one forum, Hangar Talk private in another. It would cause massive duplication of threads, confuse people and at the end of the day do little to really protect you from your greatest concern, saying something that you did not want to be public on the Internet. I won't even comment about the absurdedy of such a desire as anyone already knows that if you don't want something on the Internet, don't say it.

There is a simple way forward, make one or several of the forums non-search engine searchable. But you don't want that either because you think it is important that people find there way here. Your two positions are as nonsensical as you're wanting things on a public Internet forum to be private.

You called for this forum, and I am using your words, "Member's Only Forum"
with a minimum post count to enter

I'm not talking making the entire board members only - Just a new forum (a la "Closed Hangar Talk" or somesuch) that's members only. That way we should still have plenty of content in the new forum. I wouldn't mind a minimum post count too, but 1000 is way too high. More like in the 20-100 range. That would keep curious reporters out as well as Google.

To enter Kent's VIP room you need to have hung around for a while. I guess he feels that until then you should have to stand just off the porch. You only backed away from the minimum post count idea when you were called on it being an elitist position.

Kent will try to deny that this is case as his revisionist post here is attempting. But he did say the last time we had this conversation

Scott, for the 56,801,327th time - I like to talk to my friends. I would like to occasionally do so without talking to the whole world. Is that really so difficult for you to understand?

I guess Kent does not expect to have friends in the public area of the forum, only those that are worthy enough to get into the VIP room.

I am not against making some or all of the forums in PoA private. I called for both in previous conversations, Kent may want you to skip over that and focus only on his special VIP room because he has no willingness to compromise.

The only real choices are:
1. Make some or all of the forums non-search engine searchable
2. Leave things the way they are and temper your comments to only those things you would say in public.
3. Make the whole forum non search search engine seachable
4. Do what Jesse suggested

Well Kent -- there is always the purple board -- entire thing has the requested feature. Good people too.

And they have pancakes too.

Details are in this thread.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27388&

 

[ScottM]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Here's a great post-incident pro-GA article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/airplanes-dont-kill-peopl_b_469550.html

Liberal propaganda.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

One thing is for certain:

No longer can I make the argument that small planes can't be used for destruction. Before today, I only had to make reference to the three attempts on US soil that failed miserably.

Today, this jerk just changed GA permanently.

Bull****.

He proved, once again, how INEFFECTIVE small aircraft are as "weapons of mass descruction".

He killed one person. Yes, that is sad. But... When was the last time you read about a gunman (or more recently a gunwoman) who only killed one? If he had the sense that God gave a horse, he would have barreled through the side of the building in a full sized SUV (which would have penetrated much better) and taken out at least half a dozen people.

Look at what happened to his house compared to what happened to the office building. A jerry can works better than an G.A. airplane when it comes to distributing an accelerant. Imagine what would have happened if he had set fire bombs at many of the building exits and trapped people inside.

Small airplane are lousy weapons. They are too light. The mass is spread out into the wings which prevents good penetration of the structure. If it wasn't for the fire, this would have been a total non-event.

Nothing has changed. Now you can point to four attempts that, for all practical purposes, failed miserably.

 

[Geico266]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Bull****.

He proved, once again, how INEFFECTIVE small aircraft are as "weapons of mass descruction".

He killed one person. Yes, that is sad. But... When was the last time you read about a gunman (or more recently a gunwoman) who only killed one? If he had the sense that God gave a horse, he would have barreled through the side of the building in a full sized SUV (which would have penetrated much better) and taken out at least half a dozen people.

Look at what happened to his house compared to what happened to the office building. A jerry can works better than an G.A. airplane when it comes to distributing an accelerant. Imagine what would have happened if he had set fire bombs at many of the building exits and trapped people inside.

Small airplane are lousy weapons. They are too light. The mass is spread out into the wings which prevents good penetration of the structure. If it wasn't for the fire, this would have been a total non-event.

Nothing has changed. Now you can point to four attempts that, for all practical purposes, failed miserably.

While your assessment of the damage is correct, it is the psychological impact (terrorism) of the plane being used as a weapon that is way more devastating to the public and GA than actual damage / deaths. It is all about perception -v- reality.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Liberal propaganda.

I guess Scott's various political nuggets are somehow not Spin Zone?

 

[Bob Noel]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

He killed one person. Yes, that is sad. But... When was the last time you read about a gunman (or more recently a gunwoman) who only killed one? If he had the sense that God gave a horse, he would have barreled through the side of the building in a full sized SUV (which would have penetrated much better) and taken out at least half a dozen people.

If he had any sense at all, he wouldn't have done any of the stupid
things that lead up to this whole sorry mess.

 

[ScottM]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

I guess Scott's various political nuggets are somehow not Spin Zone?

What nuggets would thos be?

Or should I have said something like this, that was posted earlier in this thread?

You regurgitated here what you read on the Huffington Post.

So, to simplify: Don't believe everything you read, especially on polemic sites such as the Huffington Post.

We should not then believe that GA is a good thing? That is the logic that you asked us to apply when reading Huffington Post. Are you admitting that your blanket ligo c is wrong now? (psst, BTW we all ready know that your logic is wrong)

Obfusaction. You related the poor logic of the Huffington Post.

Interesting regurgitation of the Huffington Post

Sounds to me you are the one with 'issues' about HuffPo.

I think you just don't like that they are not the devil you want them to be.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Two comments.

1. Can we get the title of this thread changed to reflect the reality of the situation. Might reduce any hysteria the netbots might generate among the uninformed.

2. The AP took another whack at GA today. This is being picked up by the local papers

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/19/AR2010021904474.html

Be sure to comment when it shows up in yours.

Visions of 9/11 level ratings dancing in their heads...

 

[dmccormack]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Sounds to me you are the one with 'issues' about HuffPo.

Oh, please -- you can't tell me you actually think that the Huffington Post is "objective"?

I think you just don't like that they are not the devil you want them to be.

It's a biased screed machine, and you know it.

 

[ScottM]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Two comments.

1. Can we get the title of this thread changed to reflect the reality of the situation. Might reduce any hysteria the netbots might generate among the uninformed.

2. The AP took another whack at GA today. This is being picked up by the local papers

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/19/AR2010021904474.html

Be sure to comment when it shows up in yours.

I am not so sure that is a 'whack at GA' It was a pretty fair and balanced report. Both sides were presented and no conclusion were really presented. Lost of quotes form experts showing that GA is NOT a threat, that anything more really would not do much to protect anyone and I love that they mentioned pilots want the same freedom as other vehicle operators. It even went into detail about background checks we already have to go through to fly.

All in all this article is far better than anything I saw out of McUSA Today!

 

[ScottM]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Oh, please -- you can't tell me you actually think that the Huffington Post is "objective"?

So you think their pro-GA article should have been more negative and attack aviation?

Why don't you point out those parts you think the skewed for us?

You are making the allegations, back them up with something other than your polemic postings.

 

[dmccormack]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

So you think their pro-GA article should have been more negative and attack aviation?

Why don't you point out those aprts you think the skewed for us?

No. Do your own homework.

 

[silver-eagle]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

Visions of 9/11 level ratings dancing in their heads...

Temporary bump. Newsprint is dead, they just haven't laid down yet. As my boss so succinctly put it, "I LOVE COLORS.".

 

[ScottM]

Re: FBI Building Hit By Small Plane

No. Do your own homework.

It is not my homework, you are making the allegation. If cannot put up then you should shut up.

 

[AdamZ]

Utterly believable. Suicide is a fairly selfish act in its essence. That some guy would try and get back at the government not even beginning to think about how he was royally screwing the rest of us isn't in the least surprising.

Yes my friend it can be VERY sefish although I think there are three categories here, 1) Those that are clinically depresess and in such emotional pain they just want a way out. Still selfish to a good degree because of those they hurt with thier suicide. 2) Those that suffer some sort of pubic embarassment due to behaving badly, ie the child molester who is the local pastor that gets caught and arrested and can't live wiht the shame. Selfish for his crime and selfish to he family if he has one. 3) Those that are like this guy who crashed into the IRS building its the I'll show you mentality. This guy is selfish on EVERY level what he did to his family ( who by the way were in the house when he lit it up) for his loss and the shame he will bring them, selfish to the folks who worked in that building, selfish to pilots across the country for the restrictions he may have subjected them too, selfish to civilised society.

I just hope that the authorities who lord over our freedom to fly understand that this is an act of an insane individual and does not reflect the broad community of pilots and owners in GA, and that they act appropriately in the aftermath of the insane selfish act of one person on the edge. I really hope the reaction is measured and thought out rationally.

I hope so but won't count on it.

Maybe someone needs to remind him of the OKC bombing. They didn't ban U-Haul trucks when Timothy McVeigh blow up they Federal building in OKC.

But its cheaper, faster and easier to just throw up a SFRA or TFR than do anything about Vans, trucks and bigger threats. Security theatre as Scott likes to say

..and the day will come where the air marshal is the lunatic. There simply is nothing you can do to stop the angry insane people from causing damage.

True. Sad but true.There will always be people who think the way to solve problems with government or neighbors or co-workers is to hurt someone, they are just selfish jerks. Some of these jerks even create the problems that they get all bent out of shape about. Look Ted could be ticked about his interaction with LEO's but he doesn't go off blowing things up, he calles his Rep calls a AOPA and tries to make a differnt in a sensible mature way but As Jesse said there are those that are just angry and insane who won't handle it like a reasonable humanbeing and I guess its the luck of the draw if you run into them.

 

[ScottM]

True. Sad but true.There will always be people who think the way to solve problems with government or neighbors or co-workers is to hurt someone, they are just selfish jerks. Some of these jerks even create the problems that they get all bent out of shape about.

I don't know if I want to lump everyone like together as selfish jerks. Some of them are really just mentally ill and need some help.

This guy however, seems to have started out as a selfish jerk with his 'they did not let me have my fake church tax exemption' and then got more and more twisted as time went on.

I am sure that there are people looking at his background to see if there was a pattern of mental illness and what, if any, warning signs there might have been.

 

[ScottM]

But its cheaper, faster and easier to just throw up a SFRA or TFR than do anything about Vans, trucks and bigger threats. Security theatre as Scott likes to say

I really like to say 'security kabuki theater'. It has a much more refined and upper class sound to it.

 

[AdamZ]

I don't know if I want to lump everyone like together as selfish jerks. Some of them are really just mentally ill and need some help.

This guy however, seems to have started out as a selfish jerk with his 'they did not let me have my fake church tax exemption' and then got more and more twisted as time went on.

I am sure that there are people looking at his background to see if there was a pattern of mental illness and what, if any, warning signs there might have been.

Scott you are correct I did not consider those that are truely mentally ill and really do need help, very valid point thanks for pointing it out.

 

[AdamZ]

I really like to say 'security kabuki theater'. It has a much more refined and upper class sound to it.

LOL I like the term Theatre of the Absurd. Which belive it or not is a real genre of literature/theatre.

 

[Trapper John]

LOL I like the term Theatre of the Absurd. Which belive it or not is a real genre of literature/theatre.

No kidding. Kind of like the 1,200 explosive trace detectors TSA is deploying so they can check people's hands for residue. How many people are going to end up in the klink because they fertilized their yard the day before, or potted a plant?


Trapper John

 

[ScottM]

LOL I like the term Theatre of the Absurd. Which belive it or not is a real genre of literature/theatre.

Another accurate description of what is happening.

I think the real problem is societal. We as humans want to do a good job, we want to help, but far too often we just do not know what to do. At the same time people are screaming for 'something'. This leads to a situation, when coupled with political realities, of nothing but knee jerk responses.

I don't have an answer how to solve it. But everyone is guilty of it.

Just look at what Kent is crying for again. He wants PoA to protect him from saying something that could later bite him on PoA if someone were to be searching. That is a type of knee jerk security request we see in aviation. You and I know Kent is not the type of guy to normally want that type of thing, but in this case he has thrown out all logic and is going with an emotional response.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

No. The entire world, including Google, sees here. I've asked for a confidential forum in the past for discussing this type of thing, but Scott calls me "elitist" louder and louder until it doesn't go anywhere.

We really do need to get off the front porch occasionally, especially when the media's on the lawn.

Maybe, if the media are looking for information, they can possibly see the pro-GA side of the story from this forum. Most of the comments in this thread are positive.

<SNIP>
Just look at what Kent is crying for again. He wants PoA to protect him from saying something that could later bite him on PoA if someone were to be searching. That is a type of knee jerk security request we see in aviation. You and I know Kent is not the type of guy to normally want that type of thing, but in this case he has thrown out all logic and is going with an emotional response.

Kent, Scott, please consider a new thread for this or continue the existing thread?