Inspection mishap what to do/how to go about it?

[xander75]

hi folks,
my beloved PA28R-200 is in annual inspection right now and while things look solid from a squawk list perspective, I got a call earlier this week from the shop owner that a mishap happened:
the situation is that after they did the emergency gear extension test, it was forgotten to put the gear lever down and when the master was switched on and the plane was moved, the left gear collapsed and the wing tip hit the ground. the pitot mast also took a nice hit and the burden of the force cracking the wing plate where the pitot mast is located.

I am a bit ape**** about this and of course they'll fix it and things, but I am a bit left in awe that this could happen and I have been so careful with the plane and then this happened when you think you put it in great care.

the shop writes it off as no big deal and we'll take care of it, but I Am not happy with this situation at all especially considering every nut and bolt they use and minute spent they charge me heftily for... ps no gesture was made in terms of we'll work on the final bill or some sort of a offer to ease the feelings that I have right now.

I am reaching out to see if I am possibly overreacting, have you had a situation like that and how was it handled. what are my rights, what is the shop's duty.
Any kind of advice or suggestion would help.

thank you!
xander

 

[Grum.Man]

Not sure what the problem is since they said they will take car of it. Mistakes happen, about the only thing you could do at this point is have an aircraft appraiser evaluate the loss in value due to now having damage history and ask for the shop to cover that cost.

 

[Salty]

I think you're reacting too soon, not necessarily over-reacting. If they don't make it as good or better than it was when they got it (including paint, and a thorough inspection of everything that could have been damaged) and do it reasonably quickly, then you have reason to react strongly.

 

[xander75]

that is a good suggestion, let me do that. thanks for the response!

 

[Salty]

My biggest concern personally would be damage not obvious in other areas of the aircraft. Bent spars, or worse...

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

hi folks,
my beloved PA28R-200 is in annual inspection right now and while things look solid from a squawk list perspective, I got a call earlier this week from the shop owner that a mishap happened:
the situation is that after they did the emergency gear extension test, it was forgotten to put the gear lever down and when the master was switched on and the plane was moved, the left gear collapsed and the wing tip hit the ground. the pitot mast also took a nice hit and the burden of the force cracking the wing plate where the pitot mast is located.

I am a bit ape**** about this and of course they'll fix it and things, but I am a bit left in awe that this could happen and I have been so careful with the plane and then this happened when you think you put it in great care.

the shop writes it off as no big deal and we'll take care of it, but I Am not happy with this situation at all especially considering every nut and bolt they use and minute spent they charge me heftily for... ps no gesture was made in terms of we'll work on the final bill or some sort of a offer to ease the feelings that I have right now.

I am reaching out to see if I am possibly overreacting, have you had a situation like that and how was it handled. what are my rights, what is the shop's duty.
Any kind of advice or suggestion would help.

thank you!
xander

I can forgive a lot of well-intentioned people cuz mistakes do happen.
But I don't view that as a small "oopsie" and if the shop attempts to play it off as a NBD scenario, that would really aggravate me. I'd want to know exact steps they're going to take to fix it and make sure it aligns 100% with your expectations.

Their ability to align on that would dictate a lot of my reaction. But some of my approach would also be based off how much I trust them to make things right? Do you have a 1 year relationship with this company or 10 years of good service?

Additionally, if you just went from a NDH aircraft to fresh damage history, that has $ implications in resale. Especially if it messed up a wing on a piper lol (though I have no idea how severe it was).

-Fellow PA28R flyer

 

[xander75]

I think you're reacting too soon, not necessarily over-reacting. If they don't make it as good or better than it was when they got it (including paint, and a thorough inspection of everything that could have been damaged) and do it reasonably quickly, then you have reason to react strongly.

thank you for that sanity check
basically a new plate is necessary to remount the pitot and fix the cracks around the pitot that are there right now. I can't image this is gonna look "nice". but yeah to your point, let me wait and see how it is addressed.

 

[Salty]

thank you for that sanity check
basically a new plate is necessary to remount the pitot and fix the cracks around the pitot that are there right now. I can't image this is gonna look "nice". but yeah to your point, let me wait and see how it is addressed.

A good mechanic can make it look good if they do it properly, but that's going to cost them so they might try to avoid it. If your plane already has a lot of hangar rash, then I'd be more lenient, but if it's a pristine paint job, I would not.

 

[bonefishpete]

So a gear up goes in the log book? You know you have to write everything down crowd.

Right or wrong I never did/have the emergency gear tested. No way and the IA never question it. Was it in the Mooney check list for annual? IDK, just to many problems like this I’ve read about.

If the gear doesn’t come down then use the emergency extension. If it still doesn’t come down land gear up.

Doesn’t the Arrow have a air speed down lock or something?

 

[xander75]

I can forgive a lot of well-intentioned people cuz mistakes do happen.
But I don't view that as a small "oopsie" and if the shop attempts to play it off as a NBD scenario, that would really aggravate me. I'd want to know exact steps they're going to take to fix it and make sure it aligns 100% with your expectations.

Their ability to align on that would dictate a lot of my reaction. But some of my approach would also be based off how much I trust them to make things right? Do you have a 1 year relationship with this company or 10 years of good service?

Additionally, if you just went from a NDH aircraft to fresh damage history, that has $ implications in resale. Especially if it messed up a wing on a piper lol (though I have no idea how severe it was).

-Fellow PA28R flyer

generally they deliver quality work albeit it being for top dollar (140/hr and decent markup on parts).
one time they burnt the coil pack of my EIS and it cost me $1500 to have it repaired as it was said it was caused by a failed spark plug that later on came out clean on 2nd opinion.
I am more than aware that plane ownership is not cheap, but its more the safety aspect I am concerned with, precisely to your point, this girl was clean until that. and as you say, arrow and wing is another thing.

at this moment I have let them know my confidence is a bit shattered and I hope for a great perfection job with new pitot and knots2u wing seal that got cracked and I hope they'll deliver.

I am with them for a little over 2 years now btw to answer that q...

 

[xander75]

So a gear up goes in the log book? You know you have to write everything down crowd.

Right or wrong I never did/have the emergency gear tested. No way and the IA never question it. Was it in the Mooney check list for annual? IDK, just to many problems like this I’ve read about.

If the gear doesn’t come down then use the emergency extension. If it still doesn’t come down land gear up.

Doesn’t the Arrow have a air speed down lock or something?

it does, but there was also a directive to have it removed. mine does not have the auto gear extender at low MP just an alarm right in your view.
supposedly for the arrow the emergency extension test is part of the annual bulletin that piper provides.

and yes if AP doesn't write it down then I will. and then it is the resale value I am worried about.
I think the suggestion to have an appraiser look into this probably also gives more insight in terms of the "over-reaction" @Salty hinted on.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

generally they deliver quality work albeit it being for top dollar (140/hr and decent markup on parts).
one time they burnt the coil pack of my EIS and it cost me $1500 to have it repaired as it was said it was caused by a failed spark plug that later on came out clean on 2nd opinion.
I am more than aware that plane ownership is not cheap, but its more the safety aspect I am concerned with, precisely to your point, this girl was clean until that. and as you say, arrow and wing is another thing.

at this moment I have let them know my confidence is a bit shattered and I hope for a great perfection job with new pitot and knots2u wing seal that got cracked and I hope they'll deliver.

I am with them for a little over 2 years now btw to answer that q...

Just IMHO, that's not enough of a track record w/this company to know if they'll deliver.

Personally, I'd pay another A&P/IA for an hour or two of their time for consultation and find out exactly what they would recommend doing. Then make sure this shop is at least doing that. I wouldn't only crowd source ideas on the internet for what to have them do. You'll have to make your own assessment on if there will be residual damage to resale value and if you expect them to write a check for that. Pipers + Wings are a sensitive topic, as I'm sure you know as an arrow owner.

I would not want to be selling an arrow with fresh damage history to the wing unless I knew the shop crossed all their T's and dotted all their I's in making this thing as good/better than it was before -- and the logs reflecting that.

 

[bonefishpete]

Actually I was kidding about gear up. Simply note it as hanger maintenance rash. Certainly not a gear up which it wasn’t.

 

[flyingron]

More than a few Navions have been geared up coming out of annual. Checking the gear handle down is in three places on my personal checklists. Bad part with the Navion is that it's the Nose Gear that goes first.

I think it was just the gear extension test by the way (no emergency). That's a standard part of any retract annual.

 

[Bell206]

Any kind of advice or suggestion would help.

Sheet happens. I've had things go south and damage a customers aircraft. In my book its how the mechanic/shop will respond that it is important. On your part, inquire what process they will use to repair any damage and how they will inspect for any hidden damage. Request it in writing for your review. You can also contact Piper tech support and ask for their input on what should be done to mitigate any issues. This is what I would do as the mechanic but not all mechanics know this is an option. In the end, be sure the mx record entry covers all the angles for the incident with the level of assurance that is accepted by you.

Right or wrong I never did/have the emergency gear tested. No way and the IA never question it.

Landing gear retract function is a requirement of Part 43 Appx D, so if you refused it then you technically have an unairworthy aircraft and your IA made an improper annual sign off.

 

[xander75]

thank you folks for all the valuable suggestions.
I have reached out to my AP to ask for a precise plan and requested a replacement of the pitot mast and wing cover that were damaged.

I'll also make sure that everything is documented correctly and signed off. What i got from our discussion here is that one would not sign off if in the slightest consideration it being an airworthy problem, so I should have confidence in the system!

when I have news on the situation I'll drop it here for everyone's learning/knowledge.

cheers!
xander

 

[bonefishpete]

Sheet happens. I've had things go south and damage a customers aircraft. In my book its how the mechanic/shop will respond that it is important. On your part, inquire what process they will use to repair any damage and how they will inspect for any hidden damage. Request it in writing for your review. You can also contact Piper tech support and ask for their input on what should be done to mitigate any issues. This is what I would do as the mechanic but not all mechanics know this is an option. In the end, be sure the mx record entry covers all the angles for the incident with the level of assurance that is accepted by you.


Landing gear retract function is a requirement of Part 43 Appx D, so if you refused it then you technically have an unairworthy aircraft and your IA made an improper annual sign off.

Emergency gear extension I said. Mooney had an emergency extension spring that could break in use. Service Bulletin on it.
Couldn’t get new spring. Of course gear retraction test is required. Swinging the gear. Adjusting the doors lube it.

 

[xander75]

Emergency gear retraction I said. Mooney had an emergency retraction spring that could break in use. Service Bulletin on it.
Couldn’t get new spring. Of course gear retraction test is required. Swinging the gear. Adjusting the doors lube it.

right, it is necessary and rightfully so. but that is exactly the situation I have and when it is not done correctly you go from a clean plane to "one with history".

 

[JOhnH]

Perhaps you could get them to have their insurance company buy the plane from you.

 

[Magman]

Agree with Bell on this.

My practice has been to have the Owner activate Emergency Extension

FROM THE PILOTS SEAT. Some of the most “ robust” folks are unable

to find the Breakers to pull on early Mooneys.

A much later Mooney had the gears stripped off on the system.

Commanche guy couldn’t do Emergency Extension for real as

his pilot gear restricted the Handle.

Use of jacks is often a seriously underestimated concern for

aircraft damage. Too many examples to list.


I do believe something official from Piper would help preserve the value.

I’m wondering if a DER Report would be more “ official” than a A&P?

 

[M20K]

If you mentioned it, I missed it... What position was the prop in? Did it hit AT ALL? Odds are it was horizontal, but it is worth confirming. I'd do it in an email so you have a copy of the shops response in case there is an issue down the road.

As for resale, are you selling the plane in the near future? If not, it will be a non issue. Especially since it was in a shop vs a gear up skidding down the runway or through the dirt.

And for your Spar, etc., concerns, maybe you find another well know IA and have the shop bring them in to do the final inspection after the work is done. Now this may mess up your reputation with the shop for the future, or it may not if the owner gets why you're doing it.

 

[idahoflier]

Sorry that happened! Sure, stuff happens but it sounds like the shop isn't treating this as as big of a deal as you think it is. Maybe it's not a big deal, IDK, but just clarifying with them may help everyone. I think probably the situation is probably that they deal with stuff like this all the time and forget that an incident like this is probably the customer's first (and hopefully last) experience and as such they need to make sure you understand all aspects.

I would definitely follow up with Piper like @Bell206 mentioned above.

Also, I'm wondering if something else is amiss? Seems like the squat switch should have prevented this, or that the gear was never locked after the emergency extension...

 

[Magman]

This could fall in the “ Tip Strike” category where “ minor” damage

with a long lever causes problems far inboard.

I do KNOW that a PA 28 will fly just fine with the forward attach point

torn out! A good assessment is needed before this is completed.

Do not dismiss as minor without it.

 

[Roller]

Not a small oops, and a sign of the quality of work IMO
Were they not using a manual, or just not following it?

Do you honestly believe this was the only thing they missed on your plane?

I would have it moved to another shop for the work due to no faith, the place has proven itself incompetent

You also need to be compensated for the lost value due to this damage history

 

[Salty]

Not a small oops, and a sign of the quality of work IMO
Were they not using a manual, or just not following it?

Do you honestly believe this was the only thing they missed on your plane?

I would have it moved to another shop for the work due to no faith, the place has proven itself incompetent

You also need to be compensated for the lost value due to this damage history

Now this is what over-reacting looks like.

Anybody that thinks this can't happen to them is ignoring reality.

 

[mandm]

For the Arrow, I would want the spar checked, both on the spar and remove the fuel tanks and check for cracks. Given its 20k+ to fix the spar and then some for the damaged wing / pitot, I’d probably want another set of eyes on it to verify this.

When my fuel tanks were removed the screws are metallic color and not matching the white color of the Arrow. Not sure what you have now, but might have some paint needed too after this.

 

[Lindberg]

They're responsible for the damage, but you're not obligated to have them do the work. I would at least get another trusted A&P/IA to inspect and quote what work needs to be done (at the shop's expense). At that point if they want to do the work to that spec and you trust them to do it, that's a negotiation. I'd also make sure they've notified their insurance carrier.

 

[schmookeeg]

That sucks. If you had geared up your plane, is this the shop you would trust with the structural repairs? I think let that be your initial guide.

The shop and you are now very unaligned on incentive. They want to put this past them with the least amount of work. You likely want it repaired properly. That's asking a LOT of trust in this shop vs. a disinterested third party shop. Just saying.

Assuming you carry Hull coverage, IIRC you can call the insurance company and make it "their problem" if you want to send the thing to Beegles or another high-end structural repair shop, and let insurance subrogate against your mx provider. A good broker will navigate this with you and at least give you some options. I would be very emotional after this sort of news and it would cloud my better judgement on how to proceed. Let your insurance broker earn their commission by at least giving you a second opinion.

$0.02

 

[flyingron]

it does, but there was also a directive to have it removed. mine does not have the auto gear extender at low MP just an alarm right in your view.
supposedly for the arrow the emergency extension test is part of the annual bulletin that piper provides.

and yes if AP doesn't write it down then I will. and then it is the resale value I am worried about.
I think the suggestion to have an appraiser look into this probably also gives more insight in terms of the "over-reaction" @Salty hinted on.

There are three things here: Normal extension, Manual Freefall Emergency Extend, and the Automatic Extend.
The only one normally tested is the normal extension (technically the regs only require testing the retraction but most people extend the gear again.).

The emergency manual extension is just a lever that releases the hydraulic pressure (there are no uplocks on the Arrow) and the idea is the gear falls down into position.

The auto extend doesn't have anything to do with manifold pressure. It's triggered when the airspeed (as measured by the pitot stalk behind the pilot's shoulder) and just dumps the pressure like the manual extend lever does.

SB 866A tells you to either remove the auto extend *OR* train yourself in the operation of the autoextend and understand what it means to aircraft operation and add the SB to the POH.

The only thing dependent on the throttle (it's actually the throttle position NOT the manifold pressure directly) is the blinky gear warning light.

 

[Bell206]

Emergency gear extension I said.

FYI: You'll find the emergency extension system is a part of the "retract and lock mechanism" mentioned in Part 43 Appendix D(e)(4). If you dig deep enough you'll find additional guidance on this.

 

[flyingron]

FYI: You'll find the emergency extension system is a part of the "retract and lock mechanism" mentioned in Part 43 Appendix D(e)(4). If you dig deep enough you'll find additional guidance on this.

In fact, the Arrow has no "lock" mechanism. The gear is held up by the retraction pressure. The emergency extension just relieves this pressure.

 

[Roller]

Now this is what over-reacting looks like.

Anybody that thinks this can't happen to them is ignoring reality.

Nah, it’s what not being a sucker looks like

And it can’t happen to you if you follow a manual / checklist

Ensure gear lever is down
“Hey Bob put the gear lever down”
“Tim, double check gear lever down”

Our shop has a policy of a second mechanic checking critical items and verifying all tools clear, probably just dumb luck they haven’t smashed a plane by not putting the gear lever down


Letting a shop that sloppy continue to work on a machine that can and will kill you if it doesn’t function properly, seems…problematic

 

[Salty]

Nah, it’s what not being a sucker looks like

And it can’t happen to you if you follow a manual / checklist

Ensure gear lever is down
“Hey Bob put the gear lever down”
“Tim, double check gear lever down”

Our shop has a policy of a second mechanic checking critical items and verifying all tools clear, probably just dumb luck they haven’t smashed a plane by not putting the gear lever down


Letting a shop that sloppy continue to work on a machine that can and will kill you if it doesn’t function properly, seems…problematic

It's less likely to happen to you if you admit it can happen to you.

 

[xander75]

thanks for sharing all the thoughts! this is what I appreciate so much about our forum because I am a nervous flyer as every pilot/plane owner should be(?).
my wife already doesn't like to go flying, and what do I tell her, in fact I told her and it didn't boost her comfort. maybe I set myself up for failure, but what if, what if I went flying and the wing falls off.I won't be able to answer no nothing "up there"...

hence the Q on overreacting that some feel I may. I try to think what would I do if I were to buy a plane that had this situation, as of course this is different then a belly up landing. If it were me I would like to see this looked at and inspected more which some of you have indicated also. which I'll definitely do.

Right now, on the good news side, the shop said it will fix it as best they can with new wing knots2u cover as I have asked for and a new pitot mast. So in that regard I can't ask for more, maybe.

But I will definitely have it reinspected (and maybe share the bill) and I am not sure if I will do my next annual there again to be honest.

In fact I would have had expected them to knock off something off the anual or do a little something, but of course not, price is price and you gotta pay that top dollar. I think that is part of my disappointment too.

I litterally thought that when you have a trusted mechanic, you be in great hands and didnt have to think again, but you have to know engine, airframe and everything else in between as a plane owner, there is a lot to be learnt from this...

thank you all for thinking along here!

 

[SoCal 182 Driver]

You should reach out to Del Lehmann at Mountain Airframe. He's reputed to be "the Man" when it comes to airframe damage. Ask him his advice on how to go forward, including how to have the plane inspected. I share the concerns of others that the biggest issue potentially isn't the bent sheet metal, but instead is hidden structural damage. Del should be able to give you advice on what to look for. Then, have the plane inspected by someone other than the shop that dropped the plane in the first place.

 

[Dan Thomas]

thank you for that sanity check
basically a new plate is necessary to remount the pitot and fix the cracks around the pitot that are there right now. I can't image this is gonna look "nice". but yeah to your point, let me wait and see how it is addressed.

Al that weight on a wingtip is not good for the wing structure. As Salty mentioned, bent spars of damaged root fittings are possible.

 

[xander75]

You should reach out to Del Lehmann at Mountain Airframe. He's reputed to be "the Man" when it comes to airframe damage. Ask him his advice on how to go forward, including how to have the plane inspected. I share the concerns of others that the biggest issue potentially isn't the bent sheet metal, but instead is hidden structural damage. Del should be able to give you advice on what to look for. Then, have the plane inspected by someone other than the shop that dropped the plane in the first place.

thank you! looks like he is a beech guys but also does arrows? what you propose is precise how I want to go about it.
do you have contact details you could either post here or IM me by any chance?'

 

[xander75]

Al that weight on a wingtip is not good for the wing structure. As Salty mentioned, bent spars of damaged root fittings are possible.

it is said that this was inspected and considered airworthy, but what is that worthy to me if...
I'll definitely have it inspected other place and share that bill or will suck it up myself, but it all doesnt sit well with me...
looks like majority folks agree with that aspect. let alone resale value...

 

[SoCal 182 Driver]

thank you! looks like he is a beech guys but also does arrows? what you propose is precise how I want to go about it.
do you have contact details you could either post here or IM me by any chance?'

I think he works on most brands. If he can't or won't work on a Piper, ask him who he would recommend.

It seems their website is down. Here's the company's contact info:

Located in: Mena Intermountain Mun Airport
Address: 102 Aviation Ln, Mena, AR 71953
Phone: (479) 437-3333

 

[SoCal 182 Driver]

I'll definitely have it inspected other place and share that bill or will suck it up myself, but it all doesnt sit well with me...

The shop, or its insurance carrier, should pay for the inspection.