Imagine passing PPL short field landing on the spot you picked. And failing CPL short field on the spot you picked.

D

DPEalwaysright

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Tomparis
I don't remmeber if short field was done last on my PPL in another school, but it was another DPE and I am sure we didn't really do the full brake.

Part of the challenge of short field landings is to clear the 50ft obstacle to land on ur point or to land on ur point.

Oncr landed retracting flaps and hitting brakes reasonably is a given.

I'm 100% sure I did not do this and passed PPL.

But my commercial ride. Aster he spent 4 hours on a disaster ppl oral on a prior student, He wants to be done. Got the feeling he didn't like me or something. I kept reminding him that he's the an actual captain and I'm just becoming a commercial and I'll be improving day by day but nothing.

He failed me only for not braking the short field..you see the first short field he asked for stop and go. I thought I was too far off, winds were from opposite direction which is rare and higher. Plus it's really dumb, no ground effect. Narrow. So it's a difficult one to land on the spot while also having to overfly a taxiway jets cross on. I landed about lile 220+ feet ahead. Whereas my DPE saif land land land you got this land..I didn't because the ACS was strict. He was gonna fail until I showed him I was right. So he gave another chance but didn't clarify stop and go again.

I understand a shirt field landing implies braking and stopping..but we are just simulating it. Why did it have to be like this?
It feels likr ankther 20 rimes delay.

First pass I GA but dpe thinks I was well within tolerances which I felt I wasn't ans felt I needed one quick lap to get the hang of things. He said no and I remmeber acs saying touchdown + 100ft and told him. I todn him I'll get it right this time. But he refused
.I tried to reason with him and plead that I had some checkride jitters and we were landing totally opposite direction which I'm not fond of. Regardless. Second short field I land on the money but again no brakes.

Idk why he didn't just clarify "stop and go" and he could have said no simulates breaking.

It's absurd when a DPE tells you you failed at something that you know you have done many times in the past. He seemed irked wirh me and felt like finishing a way to fail me. Anytime I asked for clarification and just that clarification no back and forth. He considered it an arguing.

all that needed to happen was for me to have him early morning so that he would be fresh. Fresh on coffee. Fresh energy. Reasonable. Like if I'm asking stop and go again, just say yes. I'm sure everyone will say that short fields imply stop and go. But still. He could have clarified or said no simulated braking. Which he didn't. He also gave the impression he wanted to be gone asap as he has spent 4 HOURS on a ppl oral applicant who failed terribly. I'm amazed I passed my IFR with him at all in which he sang my praises


Now apparently this man is sitting there like thinking that I don't know how to retract flaps use aero brakes and apply max brakes without wheel lock up which is required often in certain airports to get off the first taxiway.

I find it shameful to bust someone over something so petty. You want a full short field landing say so.

And he's unreasonable to a level where he literally took out apiece of pen and wrote his boss name at the FAA and told me he's expect a call from.me. Why make it so complicated when he could have simply said try it again.

I'd have paid him double right there to let me take.my power off 180 and short field tlanding again. He insisted no.

The debrief was short and long..he wanted to convince me that it the short field landing must be done fully as per POH specs

Well I'm so sorry Mr dpe that I failed to demonstrate to you what a garbage pilot and driver I am because clearly I cannot demo how to brake without locking them.up .

Some DPES are so unfair and unreasonable. Why end start with a short field anyway? Just instead they should end with a short field runway so you can gtfo you know.

I did everything else great. And look it doesn't help we only ever practice touch and goes, or that my instructor never repeated or said I'd have to do a full one irl..but I was prepared on short final for a stop and go which I went around. Second time I hit numbers. Forgive me but the challenge of shory field is landing early as possible. Max braking without skidding or bypassing abs is not something I have ever done. There are dpes out there who sit and tell an applicant "you failed" knowing full well the applicant most likely would have passed if they were not unreasonable. They wanted me (my flight school) to put me before the ppl applicant so he'd be fresh. I thought hecl the ppl csn handle it..but he was so bad he domes us all too. I can't believe there's dpes like this wrrcking careers..we all know a good chunk of people probably never have a done a full short filed landing with a dpe..because dpes simply just say touch and go, or keep the short field for last, or simply don't fuss about it or are fine with minimal.brskes while.yelling brake hard.

The challenge is always a landing on your point. Keeping the brakes from locking up is simple. And yet he made it seem all ankh
 
You failed to meet the standard. You failed the ride.

Everything else you wrote was a big wall of text of blaming others, making excuses, and demonstrating a virtual cornucopia of hazardous attitudes. This reads as though it was written by a petulant child, not an aviator. I strongly suggest you go to the Chief Pilot and humbly request his/her guidance as to your deficiencies and how you can improve.
 
As your username states, the DPE is right. You have to apply brakes on a short field landing. It’s right in the ACS - IV.F.S11 - unless the plane you’re flying does not have braking in the procedures per the POH.

If you want to be a commercial pilot, grow up. Accept responsibility for the outcome of the flight, don’t blame others, and for crying out loud don’t whine. Make a plan to correct the deficiencies, train up to it, execute, and move forward.
 
By your own admission, did not meet standards for S5 or S11. That’s an UNSAT checkride, period. The examiner is not allowed to give do-overs. That’s in the ACS as well. I’d suggest becoming more familiar with the standards to which you are testing.

One checkride bust is not the DPE “wrrcking careers.” Again, I’d suggest becoming more familiar with the standards under which a flying career is made or wrecked…and that’s all about you. An almost intelligible rant is a good way to wreck your career.

Welcome to POA!:cool:
 
TCABM said:
OP: were or had you been drinking when you wrote your post?
Click to expand...
I suspect that he has not received quite the outpouring of support he had anticipated. A brief review of the FAA airman registry, based on his display name, shows a certificate issuance of April of this year, which may reflect either his initial PPL issuance or possibly the Instrument rating update. This leads me to think he's one of the raft of folks going through some sort of accelerated "Get to the airlines right now!" program, with an attendant expectation that everything will bend around him to get him into an airliner ASAP. His attitude is a huge red-flag, IMO. I also suspect that the DPE figured that out within a couple of minutes.
 
DPEalwaysright said:
I don't remmeber if short field was done last on my PPL in another school, but it was another DPE and I am sure we didn't really do the full brake.

Part of the challenge of short field landings is to clear the 50ft obstacle to land on ur point or to land on ur point.

Oncr landed retracting flaps and hitting brakes reasonably is a given.

I'm 100% sure I did not do this and passed PPL.

But my commercial ride. Aster he spent 4 hours on a disaster ppl oral on a prior student, He wants to be done. Got the feeling he didn't like me or something. I kept reminding him that he's the an actual captain and I'm just becoming a commercial and I'll be improving day by day but nothing.

He failed me only for not braking the short field..you see the first short field he asked for stop and go. I thought I was too far off, winds were from opposite direction which is rare and higher. Plus it's really dumb, no ground effect. Narrow. So it's a difficult one to land on the spot while also having to overfly a taxiway jets cross on. I landed about lile 220+ feet ahead. Whereas my DPE saif land land land you got this land..I didn't because the ACS was strict. He was gonna fail until I showed him I was right. So he gave another chance but didn't clarify stop and go again.

I understand a shirt field landing implies braking and stopping..but we are just simulating it. Why did it have to be like this?
It feels likr ankther 20 rimes delay.

First pass I GA but dpe thinks I was well within tolerances which I felt I wasn't ans felt I needed one quick lap to get the hang of things. He said no and I remmeber acs saying touchdown + 100ft and told him. I todn him I'll get it right this time. But he refused
.I tried to reason with him and plead that I had some checkride jitters and we were landing totally opposite direction which I'm not fond of. Regardless. Second short field I land on the money but again no brakes.

Idk why he didn't just clarify "stop and go" and he could have said no simulates breaking.

It's absurd when a DPE tells you you failed at something that you know you have done many times in the past. He seemed irked wirh me and felt like finishing a way to fail me. Anytime I asked for clarification and just that clarification no back and forth. He considered it an arguing.

all that needed to happen was for me to have him early morning so that he would be fresh. Fresh on coffee. Fresh energy. Reasonable. Like if I'm asking stop and go again, just say yes. I'm sure everyone will say that short fields imply stop and go. But still. He could have clarified or said no simulated braking. Which he didn't. He also gave the impression he wanted to be gone asap as he has spent 4 HOURS on a ppl oral applicant who failed terribly. I'm amazed I passed my IFR with him at all in which he sang my praises


Now apparently this man is sitting there like thinking that I don't know how to retract flaps use aero brakes and apply max brakes without wheel lock up which is required often in certain airports to get off the first taxiway.

I find it shameful to bust someone over something so petty. You want a full short field landing say so.

And he's unreasonable to a level where he literally took out apiece of pen and wrote his boss name at the FAA and told me he's expect a call from.me. Why make it so complicated when he could have simply said try it again.

I'd have paid him double right there to let me take.my power off 180 and short field tlanding again. He insisted no.

The debrief was short and long..he wanted to convince me that it the short field landing must be done fully as per POH specs

Well I'm so sorry Mr dpe that I failed to demonstrate to you what a garbage pilot and driver I am because clearly I cannot demo how to brake without locking them.up .

Some DPES are so unfair and unreasonable. Why end start with a short field anyway? Just instead they should end with a short field runway so you can gtfo you know.

I did everything else great. And look it doesn't help we only ever practice touch and goes, or that my instructor never repeated or said I'd have to do a full one irl..but I was prepared on short final for a stop and go which I went around. Second time I hit numbers. Forgive me but the challenge of shory field is landing early as possible. Max braking without skidding or bypassing abs is not something I have ever done. There are dpes out there who sit and tell an applicant "you failed" knowing full well the applicant most likely would have passed if they were not unreasonable. They wanted me (my flight school) to put me before the ppl applicant so he'd be fresh. I thought hecl the ppl csn handle it..but he was so bad he domes us all too. I can't believe there's dpes like this wrrcking careers..we all know a good chunk of people probably never have a done a full short filed landing with a dpe..because dpes simply just say touch and go, or keep the short field for last, or simply don't fuss about it or are fine with minimal.brskes while.yelling brake hard.

The challenge is always a landing on your point. Keeping the brakes from locking up is simple. And yet he made it seem all ankh
Click to expand...
Imagine thinking you deserve special treatment. Imagine that you failed because your DPE was in a bad mood because he did 2 checkrides in one day. Unreal.
 
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DPEalwaysright said:
I don't remmeber if short field was done last on my PPL in another school, but it was another DPE and I am sure we didn't really do the full brake.

Part of the challenge of short field landings is to clear the 50ft obstacle to land on ur point or to land on ur point.

Oncr landed retracting flaps and hitting brakes reasonably is a given.

I'm 100% sure I did not do this and passed PPL.

But my commercial ride. Aster he spent 4 hours on a disaster ppl oral on a prior student, He wants to be done. Got the feeling he didn't like me or something. I kept reminding him that he's the an actual captain and I'm just becoming a commercial and I'll be improving day by day but nothing.

He failed me only for not braking the short field..you see the first short field he asked for stop and go. I thought I was too far off, winds were from opposite direction which is rare and higher. Plus it's really dumb, no ground effect. Narrow. So it's a difficult one to land on the spot while also having to overfly a taxiway jets cross on. I landed about lile 220+ feet ahead. Whereas my DPE saif land land land you got this land..I didn't because the ACS was strict. He was gonna fail until I showed him I was right. So he gave another chance but didn't clarify stop and go again.

I understand a shirt field landing implies braking and stopping..but we are just simulating it. Why did it have to be like this?
It feels likr ankther 20 rimes delay.

First pass I GA but dpe thinks I was well within tolerances which I felt I wasn't ans felt I needed one quick lap to get the hang of things. He said no and I remmeber acs saying touchdown + 100ft and told him. I todn him I'll get it right this time. But he refused
.I tried to reason with him and plead that I had some checkride jitters and we were landing totally opposite direction which I'm not fond of. Regardless. Second short field I land on the money but again no brakes.

Idk why he didn't just clarify "stop and go" and he could have said no simulates breaking.

It's absurd when a DPE tells you you failed at something that you know you have done many times in the past. He seemed irked wirh me and felt like finishing a way to fail me. Anytime I asked for clarification and just that clarification no back and forth. He considered it an arguing.

all that needed to happen was for me to have him early morning so that he would be fresh. Fresh on coffee. Fresh energy. Reasonable. Like if I'm asking stop and go again, just say yes. I'm sure everyone will say that short fields imply stop and go. But still. He could have clarified or said no simulated braking. Which he didn't. He also gave the impression he wanted to be gone asap as he has spent 4 HOURS on a ppl oral applicant who failed terribly. I'm amazed I passed my IFR with him at all in which he sang my praises


Now apparently this man is sitting there like thinking that I don't know how to retract flaps use aero brakes and apply max brakes without wheel lock up which is required often in certain airports to get off the first taxiway.

I find it shameful to bust someone over something so petty. You want a full short field landing say so.

And he's unreasonable to a level where he literally took out apiece of pen and wrote his boss name at the FAA and told me he's expect a call from.me. Why make it so complicated when he could have simply said try it again.

I'd have paid him double right there to let me take.my power off 180 and short field tlanding again. He insisted no.

The debrief was short and long..he wanted to convince me that it the short field landing must be done fully as per POH specs

Well I'm so sorry Mr dpe that I failed to demonstrate to you what a garbage pilot and driver I am because clearly I cannot demo how to brake without locking them.up .

Some DPES are so unfair and unreasonable. Why end start with a short field anyway? Just instead they should end with a short field runway so you can gtfo you know.

I did everything else great. And look it doesn't help we only ever practice touch and goes, or that my instructor never repeated or said I'd have to do a full one irl..but I was prepared on short final for a stop and go which I went around. Second time I hit numbers. Forgive me but the challenge of shory field is landing early as possible. Max braking without skidding or bypassing abs is not something I have ever done. There are dpes out there who sit and tell an applicant "you failed" knowing full well the applicant most likely would have passed if they were not unreasonable. They wanted me (my flight school) to put me before the ppl applicant so he'd be fresh. I thought hecl the ppl csn handle it..but he was so bad he domes us all too. I can't believe there's dpes like this wrrcking careers..we all know a good chunk of people probably never have a done a full short filed landing with a dpe..because dpes simply just say touch and go, or keep the short field for last, or simply don't fuss about it or are fine with minimal.brskes while.yelling brake hard.

The challenge is always a landing on your point. Keeping the brakes from locking up is simple. And yet he made it seem all ankh
Click to expand...
I'm not going to trash you. It's natural and human to be upset and need to vent after a failure. Not so great to do it in public, but we all know how social media enables that stuff. The important thing is, once you are done venting, sit back and figure out what you did wrong and how to do it better on the retest.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
I'm not going to trash you. It's natural and human to be upsent and need to vent after a failure. Not so great to do it in public, but we all know how social media enables that stuff. The important thing is, once you are done venting, sit back and figure out what you did wrong and how to do it better on the retest.
Click to expand...
His profile says he’s 44 years old. He should’ve been able to suck it up and move on a good a 20 years ago.
 
AvNavCom said:
A brief review of the FAA airman registry, based on his display name, shows a certificate issuance of April of this year...
Click to expand...
Or he may just be a fan of Star Trek Voyager. Tom Paris was a highly-skilled pilot (with an ego to match, at least in the beginning) in that show.
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Jim_R said:
Or he may just be a fan of Star Trek Voyager. Tom Paris was a highly-skilled pilot (with an ego to match, at least in the beginning) in that show.
1733764417042-png.136013
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Ha! What a blast from the past.

He mentioned being in a flight school, having passed his instrument with the same DPE, so I like my chances at being correct!
 
BTW, IMO I think you likely right to over-ride the Examiner telling you to land on the 1st one.
But this is a tricky one. If you aren't sure you can perform the maneuver to standard then you are correct to override the Authority figure (Boss, or examiner) and exercise your Pilot in Command Responsibilities to safety and correctly complete the task. On the other hand if you are abort maneuvers that a commercial pilot should reasonably be able to complete then the examiner is right in determining you do not meet the commercial pilot stands.

In prepping pilots (commercial and private), I find not applying brakes after the touch down is a common failure point.

We get so used to practicing landing on the touchdown point that we forget to practice the braking. I am aware of accidents where this is exactly what happened the pilot touched down right on his designated spot then about 1/2 down the runway realizes he hasn't applied brakes and is running out of runway and doesn't have enough room to stop now.

The ACS is Clear...

CA.IV.F.S11 Use manufacturer’s recommended procedures for airplane configuration and braking.

If you are flying a 172M...
SHORT FIELD LANDING
For a maximum performance short field landing in smooth air conditions,
make an approach at the minimum recommended airspeed with full
flaps using enough power to control the glide path. (Slightly higher approach
speeds should be used under turbulent air conditions, ) After all
approach obstacles are cleared, progressively reduce power and main-
tain the approach speed by lowering the nose of the airplane. Touchdown
should be made with power off and on the main wheels first. Immediately
after touchdown, lower the nose wheel and apply heavy braking as required. (instructors note, for practice, just demonstrating some braking is acceptable heavy braking should not be required for practice short fields)
For maximum brake effectiveness, retract the flaps, hold the control
wheel full back, and apply maximum brake pressure without sliding the
tires.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
BTW, IMO I think you likely right to over-ride the Examiner telling you to land on the 1st one.
But this is a tricky one. If you aren't sure you can perform the maneuver to standard then you are correct to override the Authority figure (Boss, or examiner) and exercise your Pilot in Command Responsibilities to safety and correctly complete the task. On the other hand if you are abort maneuvers that a commercial pilot should reasonably be able to complete then the examiner is right in determining you do not meet the commercial pilot stands.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I tell my applicants that they get a go-around for free. It demonstrates good judgment, and it is codified in the ACS with the statements about prompt corrections if you exceed an ACS standard.

The flip side is that one of the markers for unsatisfactory performance is “consistently exceedingly” standards. Two in a row is consistently exceeding.
 
If landing in the opposite direction than usual is challenging, seems not ready for any check ride. Not sure why OP thinks one is only "simulating" a short field landing on a check ride - if the DPE asks for a short field landing, then do one. Down and stopped in 500-700' in a typical trainer after hitting the chosen spot. No skidding required. If the airport really has jets flitting about then there is no really "short" runway on it anyhow, so there is an element of simulation in the approach bit (since it won't have 50' trees a few hundred feet from threshold) but not in the down and stopped bit.
 
Two points I did not see in the responses. The DPE cannot "do another ride" to re-check the failed portions until after you have flown with another instructor and received a signoff from that instructor that you are proficient to retake the failed portion.

Also, IIRC, DPEs are limited to two check rides per day, hours and duty day limits. You said you were his second check ride of the day, you also mentioned a b*** buster 4 hour oral. To do another ride would be three, and FSDO would bust him.
 
BillTIZ said:
Also, IIRC, DPEs are limited to two check rides per day, hours and duty day limits. You said you were his second check ride of the day, you also mentioned a b*** buster 4 hour oral. To do another ride would be three, and FSDO would bust him.
Click to expand...
Used to be that way, but in 2018 the 2-a-day limit was increased to 3, with retests no longer counting against that. This was changed simultaneously with the removal of the geographic restrictions on DPEs.

Ref: FAA Notice 8900.485, which was canceled when the new rules were added to Order 8000.95C.
 
Groundpounder said:
People with his attitude generally do not make it to the left seat of an airliner. Probably not to the right seat either.
Click to expand...

I remember that one guy who made it into the right seat... and then into Trinity Bay.
 
DPEalwaysright said:
I don't remmeber if short field was done last on my PPL in another school, but it was another DPE and I am sure we didn't really do the full brake.

Part of the challenge of short field landings is to clear the 50ft obstacle to land on ur point or to land on ur point.

Oncr landed retracting flaps and hitting brakes reasonably is a given.

I'm 100% sure I did not do this and passed PPL.

But my commercial ride. Aster he spent 4 hours on a disaster ppl oral on a prior student, He wants to be done. Got the feeling he didn't like me or something. I kept reminding him that he's the an actual captain and I'm just becoming a commercial and I'll be improving day by day but nothing.

He failed me only for not braking the short field..you see the first short field he asked for stop and go. I thought I was too far off, winds were from opposite direction which is rare and higher. Plus it's really dumb, no ground effect. Narrow. So it's a difficult one to land on the spot while also having to overfly a taxiway jets cross on. I landed about lile 220+ feet ahead. Whereas my DPE saif land land land you got this land..I didn't because the ACS was strict. He was gonna fail until I showed him I was right. So he gave another chance but didn't clarify stop and go again.

I understand a shirt field landing implies braking and stopping..but we are just simulating it. Why did it have to be like this?
It feels likr ankther 20 rimes delay.

First pass I GA but dpe thinks I was well within tolerances which I felt I wasn't ans felt I needed one quick lap to get the hang of things. He said no and I remmeber acs saying touchdown + 100ft and told him. I todn him I'll get it right this time. But he refused
.I tried to reason with him and plead that I had some checkride jitters and we were landing totally opposite direction which I'm not fond of. Regardless. Second short field I land on the money but again no brakes.

Idk why he didn't just clarify "stop and go" and he could have said no simulates breaking.

It's absurd when a DPE tells you you failed at something that you know you have done many times in the past. He seemed irked wirh me and felt like finishing a way to fail me. Anytime I asked for clarification and just that clarification no back and forth. He considered it an arguing.

all that needed to happen was for me to have him early morning so that he would be fresh. Fresh on coffee. Fresh energy. Reasonable. Like if I'm asking stop and go again, just say yes. I'm sure everyone will say that short fields imply stop and go. But still. He could have clarified or said no simulated braking. Which he didn't. He also gave the impression he wanted to be gone asap as he has spent 4 HOURS on a ppl oral applicant who failed terribly. I'm amazed I passed my IFR with him at all in which he sang my praises


Now apparently this man is sitting there like thinking that I don't know how to retract flaps use aero brakes and apply max brakes without wheel lock up which is required often in certain airports to get off the first taxiway.

I find it shameful to bust someone over something so petty. You want a full short field landing say so.

And he's unreasonable to a level where he literally took out apiece of pen and wrote his boss name at the FAA and told me he's expect a call from.me. Why make it so complicated when he could have simply said try it again.

I'd have paid him double right there to let me take.my power off 180 and short field tlanding again. He insisted no.

The debrief was short and long..he wanted to convince me that it the short field landing must be done fully as per POH specs

Well I'm so sorry Mr dpe that I failed to demonstrate to you what a garbage pilot and driver I am because clearly I cannot demo how to brake without locking them.up .

Some DPES are so unfair and unreasonable. Why end start with a short field anyway? Just instead they should end with a short field runway so you can gtfo you know.

I did everything else great. And look it doesn't help we only ever practice touch and goes, or that my instructor never repeated or said I'd have to do a full one irl..but I was prepared on short final for a stop and go which I went around. Second time I hit numbers. Forgive me but the challenge of shory field is landing early as possible. Max braking without skidding or bypassing abs is not something I have ever done. There are dpes out there who sit and tell an applicant "you failed" knowing full well the applicant most likely would have passed if they were not unreasonable. They wanted me (my flight school) to put me before the ppl applicant so he'd be fresh. I thought hecl the ppl csn handle it..but he was so bad he domes us all too. I can't believe there's dpes like this wrrcking careers..we all know a good chunk of people probably never have a done a full short filed landing with a dpe..because dpes simply just say touch and go, or keep the short field for last, or simply don't fuss about it or are fine with minimal.brskes while.yelling brake hard.

The challenge is always a landing on your point. Keeping the brakes from locking up is simple. And yet he made it seem all ankh
Click to expand...

You are being tested on a procedure. The procedure only requires you pick an aim point based on wind, landing surface and obstructions. There is no requirement you clear a 50 ft obstacle. You required you to use braking.

So if you don’t know the procedure, why are you gripping about failing it?

All the DPE didn’t fail you because you don’t know how to retract flaps and use brakes. He failed you because your decision making on a short field didn’t include doing it and if it was a checklist item, you omitted it.
 
Clip4 said:
You are being tested on a procedure. The procedure only requires you pick an aim point based on wind, landing surface and obstructions. There is no requirement you clear a 50 ft obstacle. You required you to use braking.

So if you don’t know the procedure, why are you gripping about failing it?

All the DPE didn’t fail you because you don’t know how to retract flaps and use brakes. He failed you because your decision making on a short field didn’t include doing it and if it was a checklist item, you omitted it.
Click to expand...
Is the examiner allowed to specify a simulated obstacle, or does he have to take the applicant to a runway with obstacles if that’s what he wants to see?
 
Shake it off brother. Go get more training. Make that maneuver your bread and butter, then go retest.

They way I always did it was to simulate real life. I mashed them brakes until the instructor/DPE said “ok, ok that’s good!”
 
MauleSkinner said:
Is the examiner allowed to specify a simulated obstacle, or does he have to take the applicant to a runway with obstacles if that’s what he wants to see?
Click to expand...
I seem to recall that the ACS used to say something to effect of approach over an obstacle if specified by the examiner.
The current version seem to have that language removed, so one could easily make the argument the only way for examiner to specify this is to select an airport that actually has an obstacle.

I once made the mistake of evaluating the an applicant for a check ride by having him do the short field approach at an airport that required a short field approach and landing. Then when he tried to simulate it on a long runway during the checkride he had trouble hitting the designated spot. It is different when simulating vs actually having to do it, requiring it forced the applicant to do all the correct things or we would havehad to abort the approach. On the simulated approach he relaxed his standards to much and had trouble on the check ride.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
I seem to recall that the ACS used to say something to effect of approach over an obstacle if specified by the examiner.
The current version seem to have that language removed, so one could easily make the argument the only way for examiner to specify this is to select an airport that actually has an obstacle.
Click to expand...
I also note that the short field takeoff specifies either an obstacle or a simulated obstacle, so they definitely treat the two differently.
brcase said:
I once made the mistake of evaluating the an applicant for a check ride by having him do the short field approach at an airport that required a short field approach and landing. Then when he tried to simulate it on a long runway during the checkride he had trouble hitting the designated spot. It is different when simulating vs actually having to do it, requiring it forced the applicant to do all the correct things or we would havehad to abort the approach. On the simulated approach he relaxed his standards to much and had trouble on the check ride.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...
There are a lot of things that we simulate that can lead to similar problems…one that comes to mind is teaching circle-to-land on a clear day and then flying one for real with with minimum ceiling and visibility.
 
DPEalwaysright said:
I did everything else great.
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Here's the most likely cause of failure. I know for a fact that I didn't do everything great on my last checkride, but I knew it and the examiner also know what I knew wasn't perfect and what I was doing to correct it ASAP, and I also did fly within the tolerances - but it was far from a perfect flight. IMO, you have to hold yourself to tighter tolerances and know what you are messing up on, and be critical of yourself if you really want to be a good captain. The best students I've had know that their good day could have been better, and are harder on themselves than the examiner was.

Maybe we're all wrong, but I would bet LOTS of money that the examiner would have a list of at least a few other things that were barely passable, sketchy, or not as good as you thought that they were, and this was just the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back for your checkride. Your failed maneuver just gave him the excuse he needed to bust you.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Is the examiner allowed to specify a simulated obstacle, or does he have to take the applicant to a runway with obstacles if that’s what he wants to see?
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The task isn’t a short landing over a 50 ft obstacle within -0/+100 of the specified point - simulated or actual.
The task is a short field landing.

An examiner who requires a real or simulated 50 ft obstacle that would cause the applicant to change the procedure by flying a higher approach or airspeeds that are different from a short field would be introducing a new procedure into a standardized test. Having an obstacle at a distance that would not alter the procedure as a realistic distraction seems fair game.
 
Clip4 said:
The task isn’t a short landing over a 50 ft obstacle within -0/+100 of the specified point - simulated or actual.
The task is a short field landing.

An examiner who requires a real or simulated 50 ft obstacle that would cause the applicant to change the procedure by flying a higher approach or airspeeds that are different from a short field would be introducing a new procedure into a standardized test. Having an obstacle at a distance that would not alter the procedure as a realistic distraction seems fair game.
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This is what came to mind immediately when they said 50' obstacle. Uhhhh that's not part of the ACS for short field...
 
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