IFR Pop-up - Legality

[WannFly]

if you are just droning around , not on a IFR flight plan and things get smoky down below, you request for IFR pop-up , the question is would be be legal with out a flight plan? or should you file a plan in the air and then ask for pop up?


not asking for a friend

 

[bobmrg]

Sure hope so...did it hundreds of times. The book answer is that you should contact FSS and file in the air, but I was never asked to. Of course, 95% of my flying was on the laissez-faire west coast.

Bob Gardner

 

[kgruber]

Completely legal, and before the ATC strike. available most anytime. Now it's a toss up. They might give you an IFR, or might not. Some approach controls and centers are more likely than others.

 

[flyingron]

There is a plan, ATC creates an abbreviated one for you.

 

[WannFly]

Interesting, I read on the inter web someone mentioned that their DPE during the checkride mentioned that you almost get it and ATC doesn’t care much. But if you bend anything FSDO will care since you didn’t follow the 1-2-3 rule (whatever that is) and didn’t file IFR before asking for a pop-up

 

[Pugs]

But if you bend anything FSDO will care since you didn’t follow the 1-2-3 rule (whatever that is) and didn’t file IFR before asking for a pop-up

1-2-3 rule = One hour either side of your arrival time if the weather is not 2000' ceiling and 3 miles viz at the destination airport you need to file an alternate airport on your IFR flight plan.

Not sure it applies to the question since it's an IFR filing rule so you would have a flight plan (and weather does change enroute sometimes so I can't see them being hard over.)

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

If atc issues a clearance, you have that part covered as far as being legal even without a flight plan.
(although there are of course many other parts of process which could make you not legal)

They prefer to have a filed flight plan so if able do that first. (if you are in cell range, its easy enough to do, even airborne and I find easier than calling)
If asking for a popup (w/o a fltplan) have ready, written down, all the particulars of a suitable flight plan. I have heard several times, and was asked once by atc, to read my fltplan for the tapes - was told they do not enter it - they just want it recorded.'
If you have it written down you should be able to read it in less than 10 seconds thus not blocking the airwaves excessively. Read it at a good clip and get off is what they want.

 

[benyflyguy]

What you have to do is maintain VFR rules until you receive a formal clearance. Cloud clearances altitudes the whole Shabang. In busier airspace sometimes you might have to wait a bit so if you are thinking you even might need it but note sure, doesn’t hurt to ask early.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

things get smoky down below

That would be a not bad situation; in good vmc and wanting a clearance to below. One time it was 'just' vmc and the briefing said it was better in my planned direction so I did not file. Well there was no forecasting or reporting in between dep. point and 'better'.... shonuff' it got really crappy a few miles from the classC I left and there I was buzzing around down low with towers around and Approach could not accommodate my popup request. Very uncomfortable position. I had to call FSS and file, then get back to atc.
Many times now, I will file and not use it.

 

[dtuuri]

I never heard of "asking for a pop-up". I've always asked for an IFR clearance to do whatever. "Pop-up" was a term of art among controllers when they refer to guys like me surprising them with an impromptu IFR request, probably not a compliment either.

 

[dmspilot]

If you file first then it wouldn't be a pop-up. Filing before asking for a pop-up clearance is an oxymoron.

 

[Velocity173]

Sure it’s legal.

http://dictionary.dauntless-soft.com/definitions/groundschoolfaa/ABBREVIATED+IFR+FLIGHT+PLAN

Now if you’re going outside their sector and don’t have time to type you in the NAS computer, then you might get sent to AFSS or the next controller.

 

[flyingron]

I think in 15 years of IFR flying, I've probably had only twice when ATC told me to go file when I asked for an IFR (pop up, if you will) clearance.

 

[benyflyguy]

That would be a not bad situation; in good vmc and wanting a clearance to below. One time it was 'just' vmc and the briefing said it was better in my planned direction so I did not file. Well there was no forecasting or reporting in between dep. point and 'better'.... shonuff' it got really crappy a few miles from the classC I left and there I was buzzing around down low with towers around and Approach could not accommodate my popup request. Very uncomfortable position. I had to call FSS and file, then get back to atc.
Many times now, I will file and not use it.

So I have taken taken off VFR with an IFR flight plan in place that was getting held on ground for a planes on approach. Held 10 min. Then held again for another 10. Then called back held again. I just took off VFR and opened in the air. Didn’t get my clearance for about 10 min and wasn’t IMC yet anyway.
So what if I stayed VFR flight rules for like an hour and opened up my flight plan, no issues here???

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

So what if I stayed VFR flight rules for like an hour and opened up my flight plan, no issues here???

If you fly that long without picking it up then you may be out of the sector that has the flight plan in my experience. I have had "who did you file that with, I can't find it".
Otherwise, ya if you stay vmc, you don't need a clearance.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Do this all the time... but the again, I live in the land of the 1 million TEC Routes..

 

[Ventucky Red]

So I have taken taken off VFR with an IFR flight plan in place that was getting held on ground for a planes on approach. Held 10 min. Then held again for another 10. Then called back held again. I just took off VFR and opened in the air. Didn’t get my clearance for about 10 min and wasn’t IMC yet anyway.
So what if I stayed VFR flight rules for like an hour and opened up my flight plan, no issues here???

Yeup that too...

 

[Hank S]

If you fly that long without picking it up then you may be out of the sector that has the flight plan in my experience. I have had "who did you file that with, I can't find it".
Otherwise, ya if you stay vmc, you don't need a clearance.

I file with an 800 number--they're rarely in the same state or even region. I've had enchanting conversations about Southern weather with briefers in ND and MN. One time I departed VFR towards inland weather and ILM would never answer my calls (tried about six times), but they had time to talk to VFR pilots flitting everywhere. So I called Seymour Johnson AFB and they were happy to open my flight plan just a few minutes before I reached the layer. Just one benefit of writing down radio frequencies before changing, as I had talked to them in the way in a few days before.

 

[jordane93]

If you file first then it wouldn't be a pop-up. Filing before asking for a pop-up clearance is an oxymoron.

Had a NY controller give me a hard time and ask me why I didn’t file when I needed to get a pop up for a quick approach because of unforecasted fog. WTF. That’s the whole point of a pop up moron.

 

[flyingron]

If you've previously filed (but not issued), I call it an air pickup rather than a pop-up. It works best if you can get to VFR to the minimum IFR altitude before your clearance is effective.

The key to air pickup (whether you file it by calling FSS on the radio or the phone or use some electronic means) is to make sure that the DEPARTURE point is something that is associated with the facility you're calling to get your clearance.
There was some initial fun-and-games with the SFRA where the FAA (not ATC, but the boneheads in DC) didn't understand how flight strip routing works. I remember sitting at Leesburg watching a video on how this was supposed to work where the guys tried to call Baltimore Approach over EMI to get their clearance (anybody who flies IFR regularly knew that it was ZNY airspace at the time). I'm not sure what the point of a video showing that nobody at the FAA had a freaking clue was supposed to instill with the general pilot and flight instructor population. The whole point of the "gates" in the current concept was to assure that the frequency you call is the one your plan was routed to.

Other than the two times I was told to go the FSS (once by Boston Center, which I guess wasn't too unexpected and once by Greensboro approach because he was just cranky, I guess), the funniest one was this on the way to Oshkosh a few years ago. We go up early (we help park the planes in Vintage), so here it's like Tuesday before the show and I'm getting VFR advisories from MKE approach. I'm checking the weather ahead...

27K: It looks like OSH is IFR. Can I get an IFR clearance from you? (implying the "or do I have to go file with FSS")
MKE: (sighs over the air, like... oh gee, it's starting already) Are you rated and equipped.
27K: affirmative.
MKE: Cleared direct OSHKOSH maintain 4000.

 

[Clip4]

if you are just droning around , not on a IFR flight plan and things get smoky down below, you request for IFR pop-up , the question is would be be legal with out a flight plan? or should you file a plan in the air and then ask for pop up?


not asking for a friend

The question is if you are just out droning around and find the weather deteriorating, did you bother to get a preflight WX brief?

 

[asicer]

the funniest one was this on the way to Oshkosh a few years ago. We go up early (we help park the planes in Vintage), so here it's like Tuesday before the show and I'm getting VFR advisories from MKE approach. I'm checking the weather ahead...

27K: It looks like OSH is IFR. Can I get an IFR clearance from you? (implying the "or do I have to go file with FSS")
MKE: (sighs over the air, like... oh gee, it's starting already) Are you rated and equipped.
27K: affirmative.
MKE: Cleared direct OSHKOSH maintain 4000.

Reminds me of my first exposure to pop-up IFR clearances...

Me: Request VFR practice approach
ATC: Direct IAFIX, cleared for the Podunk RNAV 25 approach, maintain 3500 until established.
CFII: (is concerned about a cloud <2000ft laterally from IAFIX) Uh, can we turn that into an IFR clearance?
ATC: Cleared for the Podunk RNAV25 approach, direct IAFIX at 3500 IFR.

 

[WannFly]

The question is if you are just out droning around and find the weather deteriorating, did you bother to get a preflight WX brief?

well I found the scenario on the interweb, someone posted he was asked this during check ride. I am not even rated, if this happens to me, well... it will probably be a bad day

 

[PaulS]

[QU

The question is if you are just out droning around and find the weather deteriorating, did you bother to get a preflight WX brief?

Forecasts can be inaccurate. A few months ago the instructor and I were going to do some touch and goes in the pattern then go get some approaches done. It was vfr albiet a little low when we left the office. I preflighted, got atis and taxied up to the taxi way. Called for taxi clearance vfr and the controller tells us that the field had gone ifr. It wasn't supposed to do that for another couple hours. So we filed and did the approaches.

 

[luvflyin]

Reminds me of my first exposure to pop-up IFR clearances...

Me: Request VFR practice approach
ATC: Direct IAFIX, cleared for the Podunk RNAV 25 approach, maintain 3500 until established.
CFII: (is concerned about a cloud <2000ft laterally from IAFIX) Uh, can we turn that into an IFR clearance?
ATC: Cleared for the Podunk RNAV25 approach, direct IAFIX at 3500 IFR.

The first clearance ATC gave was an IFR Clearance. Can't fault your CFII for verifying seeing as how you asked for a VFR practice approach. But that doesn't change the fact that the first one was an IFR clearance. Only question is, what was on the Controllers mind. Did he intend for it to be a VFR practice approach and fail to instruct you to maintain VFR which is absolutely required for the Controller to do. Or was he aware of the weather out there and just decided to give you the IFR clearance even though you had requested a VFR practice approach.

 

[asicer]

The first clearance ATC gave was an IFR Clearance. Can't fault your CFII for verifying seeing as how you asked for a VFR practice approach. But that doesn't change the fact that the first one was an IFR clearance. Only question is, what was on the Controllers mind. Did he intend for it to be a VFR practice approach and fail to instruct you to maintain VFR which is absolutely required for the Controller to do. Or was he aware of the weather out there and just decided to give you the IFR clearance even though you had requested a VFR practice approach.

He might have said to maintain VFR. I doubt he knew the weather because it was just a few clouds here and there (I think... I was under the hood). I don't remember exactly because I was still in training.

 

[luvflyin]

He might have said to maintain VFR. I doubt he knew the weather because it was just a few clouds here and there (I think... I was under the hood). I don't remember exactly because I was still in training.

Gotcha. I'd bet he probably did

 

[PaulS]

Gotcha. I'd bet he probably did

I would still check if I had VFR in my head when I asked for it. Around here my home airport bumps up against and is below a bravo. When practicing approaches VFR you have to hear "cleared into the Bravo" before you penetrate even if they are routing you there. Sometimes they forget.

 

[luvflyin]

I would still check if I had VFR in my head when I asked for it. Around here my home airport bumps up against and is below a bravo. When practicing approaches VFR you have to hear "cleared into the Bravo" before you penetrate even if they are routing you there. Sometimes they forget.

Yeah, there's that. Do they tell you to maintain VFR and 'clear' you for the Approach? Or do they say "maintain VFR, practice approach approved, no separation services provided."

 

[WannFly]

Yeah, there's that. Do they tell you to maintain VFR and 'clear' you for the Approach? Or do they say "maintain VFR, practice approach approved, no separation services provided."

Around here they almost always says maintain VFR throughout the practice approach when asked for practice

 

[Clip4]

[QU


Forecasts can be inaccurate. A few months ago the instructor and I were going to do some touch and goes in the pattern then go get some approaches done. It was vfr albiet a little low when we left the office. I preflighted, got atis and taxied up to the taxi way. Called for taxi clearance vfr and the controller tells us that the field had gone ifr. It wasn't supposed to do that for another couple hours. So we filed and did the approaches.

At least you had a forecast and knew what the WX was expected to do. It is very seldom one is given a descent VFR that goes to crap while just flying locally around the area.

 

[PaulS]

Yeah, there's that. Do they tell you to maintain VFR and 'clear' you for the Approach? Or do they say "maintain VFR, practice approach approved, no separation services provided."

It's Boston Approach, they just say maintain vfr at all times. Then they say it again when clearing you for the approach. Generally they are pretty good about clearing you into the bravo if you get routed that far out, but sometimes they get busy and forget.

 

[PaulS]

At least you had a forecast and knew what the WX was expected to do. It is very seldom one is given a descent VFR that goes to crap while just flying locally around the area.

I hear you, that's true most of the time, although around here if you waited for a perfect forecast every time you wanted to fly you wouldn't fly much.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Can't get a pop-up in the SFRA. You are required to file on the ground, or air file with FSS prior to entering on a vfr clearance.

 

[Velocity173]

Around here they almost always says maintain VFR throughout the practice approach when asked for practice

They’re required to say “maintain VFR” everywhere for VFR IAPs. The difference is, if it’s the primary airport (most likely where TRACON is) they provide IFR separation services (minus 500 ft vertical) and actually clear you for the approach.

If it’s a secondary airport, they may (letter to airman) or may not provide IFR separation services. The later, you won’t get a clearance, and you’ll be informed of the lack of separation services

 

[flyingron]

What's a VFR IAP?
And you've lost me. Primary vs. secondary doesn't change what separation services are available, only the class of airspace.

 

[midlifeflyer]

They’re required to say “maintain VFR” everywhere for VFR IAPs. The difference is, if it’s the primary airport (most likely where TRACON is) they provide IFR separation services (minus 500 ft vertical) and actually clear you for the approach.

If it’s a secondary airport, they may (letter to airman) or may not provide IFR separation services. The later, you won’t get a clearance, and you’ll be informed of the lack of separation services

I have done many practice approaches to a towered airport with the "practice approach approved (no separation services provided)" clearance, and approaches to nontowered airports where separation services were provided (until the frequency change). It's more about the preference of the local TRACON than whether the airport is towered or not.

Sounds like one of those, "I think every airport and Approach Control is the same as mine" posts.

 

[Velocity173]

What's a VFR IAP?
And you've lost me. Primary vs. secondary doesn't change what separation services are available, only the class of airspace.

A VFR aircraft conducting an instrument approach while while wearing a vision restriction device. For your second comment:

 

[Velocity173]

I have done many practice approaches to a towered airport with the "practice approach approved (no separation services provided)" clearance, and approaches to nontowered airports where separation services were provided (until the frequency change). It's more about the preference of the local TRACON than whether the airport is towered or not.

Sounds like one of those, "I think every airport and Approach Control is the same as mine" posts.

“Primary airport.” Example: CLT TRACON (approach) provides IFR sep to VFRs conducting approaches to CLT. Outside of an LTA (I believe they have one) they don’t provide IFR sep to secondary airports. They try to provide it to as many possible but the one’s that are approved are listed on the LTA.

 

[midlifeflyer]

“Primary airport.” Example: CLT TRACON (approach) provides IFR sep to VFRs conducting approaches to CLT. Outside of an LTA (I believe they have one) they don’t provide IFR sep to secondary airports. They try to provide it to as many possible but the one’s that are approved are listed on the LTA.

View attachment 73652

I don't think I disagreed with anything here.