IFR Pop-up - Legality

[Velocity173]

I don't think I disagreed with anything here.

I know. I was just clarifying why at a “towered airport” you didn’t receive a clearance with IFR sep being provided. That’s because it wasn’t the “primary airport.”

 

[midlifeflyer]

I know. I was just clarifying why at a “towered airport” you didn’t receive a clearance with IFR sep being provided. That’s because it wasn’t the “primary airport.”

At that same airport I have also received practice approaches under VFR with IFR separation services. Different days (although not always), different controller, different workload, different level of optional service.

If you are using "primary" to refer to a Class B or C primary, CLT itself in your example, then sure, you will pretty much always receive separation services. In that case, it's not really optional. That how those airspaces are defined . They even provide separation services to "normal" VFR traffic,

 

[Velocity173]

At that same airport I have also received practice approaches under VFR with IFR separation services. Different days (although not always), different controller, different workload, different level of optional service.

If you are using "primary" to refer to a Class B or C primary, CLT itself in your example, then sure, you will pretty much always receive separation services. In that case, it's not really optional. That how those airspaces are defined . They even provide separation services to "normal" VFR traffic,

Sounds like there isn’t much standardization going on at that facility. But, like a lot of things, controllers interpret the rules differently depending on who you ask.

https://www.stuckmic.com/faa-rules-regulations/7442-vfr-practice-approach-phraseology.html

https://www.stuckmic.com/faa-rules-regulations/51603-vfr-practice-instrument-approach.html

 

[luvflyin]

Sounds like there isn’t much standardization going on at that facility. But, like a lot of things, controllers interpret the rules differently depending on who you ask.

https://www.stuckmic.com/faa-rules-regulations/7442-vfr-practice-approach-phraseology.html

https://www.stuckmic.com/faa-rules-regulations/51603-vfr-practice-instrument-approach.html

Yup. In my experience as a controller, practice approaches is probably the most abused by ATC procedure there is. Many don't understand it and just do what someone else told them about it once. Some do and deliberately 'interpret' it to suit themselves even though they have no authority to 'interpret' it. It requires no 'interpretation,' the rules are clear.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yup. In my experience as a controller, practice approaches is probably the most abused by ATC procedure there is. Many don't understand it and just do what someone else told them about it once. Some do and deliberately 'interpret' it to suit themselves even though they have no authority to 'interpret' it. It requires no 'interpretation,' the rules are clear.

I guess I need to be educated a bit. What rule requires a controller to not provide separation services at a "non-primary" toweted
airport when handling practice approaches?

 

[luvflyin]

To find out if an Airport has a formal program where IFR separation is provide to VFR aircraft conducting Practice Instrument Approaches, go here:

https://notams.aim.faa.gov/notamSearch/nsapp.html#/

Search the Airport, look in the column 'Class' and find LTA's. Last time I did this a couple years ago, sometimes an Airport that did have the formal program wouldn't show the LTA. You would have to search the 'parent' Approach Control or Center. But it looks like they have that cleaned up and you can get the LTA by searching the Airport you're interested in. You still may want to search the Approach Control or Center that runs that Airport to make sure. Some TRACONS have Identifiers that are not 'airport' ID's. Go here to find them:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...to/service_units/air_traffic_services/tracon/

scroll down past ATCT/TRACON to TRACON to find those.

Go here to find Center designators:

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...s_handbook/media/FAA-H-8083-16B_Chapter_2.pdf
scrolldown a few clicks

 

[luvflyin]

I guess I need to be educated a bit. What rule requires a controller to not provide separation services at a "non-primary" toweted
airport when handling practice approaches?

There is no rule that does that. There is a rule that separation services will be done at the primary airport. There is a rule that if a 'satellite' airport has the program, separation services will be provided. Some of them are Towered, some are not. If an Airport does not have the program then IFR separation is not to be provided. Some of those are Towered, some are not. 'Tower' has nothing to do with it. It does seem to be more common at Towered airports though. Class of Airspace has nothing to do with it although you will probably find it more common around B and C airspace. And of course where IFR separation service is not provided to VFR aircraft conducting practice approaches, there still may be some VFR B, C and TRSA separation criteria applied.

 

[Witmo]

At least you had a forecast and knew what the WX was expected to do. It is very seldom one is given a descent VFR that goes to crap while just flying locally around the area.

Weather changes constantly. "I've seen "decent vfr" turn into marginal vfr turn into hard IFR in a very short time. Some weather systems linger for days while others speed over the ground like a runaway freight train. I've seen some forecasts totally miss the mark. You do your best and play the hand you're dealt.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There is no rule that does that. There is a rule that separation services will be done at the primary airport. There is a rule that if a 'satellite' airport has the program, separation services will be provided. Some of them are Towered, some are not. If an Airport does not have the program then IFR separation is not to be provided. Some of those are Towered, some are not. 'Tower' has nothing to do with it. It does seem to be more common at Towered airports though. Class of Airspace has nothing to do with it although you will probably find it more common around B and C airspace. And of course where IFR separation service is not provided to VFR aircraft conducting practice approaches, there still may be some VFR B, C and TRSA separation criteria applied.

That's what I thought.

 

[Velocity173]

Speaking of picking up an IFR without having a flight plan in the system. I heard a T-45 (Rocket 25) yesterday pick up an IFR airborne from CHA to NPA. It’s a pain and it ties up the freq with all the flight plan information but it can be done. Sounded like approach was able to type him in but switched them to center to actually get the clearance.

Local IFR for an IAP is easy. Going XC and trying to get a jet in the computer, not so much.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Speaking of picking up an IFR without having a flight plan in the system. I heard a T-45 (Rocket 45) yesterday pick up an IFR airborne from CHA to NPA. It’s a pain and it ties up the freq with all the flight plan information but it can be done. Sounded like approach was able to type him in but switched them to center to actually get the clearance.

Local IFR for an IAP is easy. Going XC and trying to get a jet in the computer, not so much.

There's no requirement for an active controller to accept a pop-up clearance, and I have heard controllers refuse them when the workload was to much. The pilots in question are told to call Flight Service on the radio to file.

I try to keep in mind that accepting a pop-up from a VFR aircraft is workload-based. One of my pop-ups is an illustration. I was returning from the Western Slope of Colorado (Grand Junction) to the Denver area. Severe clear though the mountains, but as I approached the last major pass (Rollins/Corona) for those familiar, I could see that metro Denver was socked in. I realized that trying to get a pop-up from Denver Approach would be an exercise in futility, so I called Center instead and asked if they could work out a clearance for me. He did.

Parenthetically, it was an interesting instruction. I was given a squawk and told to cross the pass, maintain VFR at or above a certain altitude until I was over a certain point and then call Denver Approach. "Your clearance will be waiting for you." It was and it was easy.

 

[dreyna14]

Did two in the past week. Last Saturday I did VFR-on-top to do instrument maneuvers then had to get back down through the marine layer. ATC kept up VFR us for at least 20 mins while they brought in other faster traffic then got us in. Last night had to ask for a clearance to get back in after a VFR x-country.

 

[chemgeek]

You can but ask for an IFR clearance. If workload permits, or ATC takes pity on you, they will issue a clearance for you to shoot the approach. I have done this with Syracuse Approach a few times when returning home VFR and finding that the home drome is covered with lake effect clag underneath me. It might help if you are already on VFR radar advisories so you are not a total surprise. Of course, there is the option to just file IFR if you suspect there may be visibility issues, then you get handled at the expense of having to get directed around by ATC.

I was just up and about today (nice day in CNY) and there were lots of folks out doing practice IFR approaches. Syracuse was in their afternoon rush, and the only way they could accommodate all the practice approaches was to ask if the trainees could maintain VFR, because there was not enough workload availability or airspace to maintain proper IFR separation. Some folks stayed VFR, while others stayed IFR and got extra turns in the missed approach hold, just for fun. Everybody worked together and kept things moving...

 

[dtuuri]

IMO the phrase "pop-up" lets the controller know that they don't need to search for an existing IFR flight plan.

I doubt you need to insult yourself by saying "pop up", they already know you're one if you're airborne with no clearance. After establishing contact with my position I'd simply ask if they would be able to give me an IFR clearance for whatever.

 

[midlifeflyer]

On the nomenclature. "Pop up" is the shorthand term most of us use to describe a VFR aircraft requesting an IFR clearance. It is even in the ATC Handbook, as a descriptive term, but not as part of a dialog. (BTW the term as used in the Handbook does not limit itself to aircraft with no IFR flight plan on file).

Personally, I don't think I've ever used the term when requesting a pop-up. Others have used it. It doesn't matter so long as the point gets across.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

if you are just droning around , not on a IFR flight plan and things get smoky down below, you request for IFR pop-up , the question is would be be legal with out a flight plan? or should you file a plan in the air and then ask for pop up?


not asking for a friend

In theory you should get a pop-up clearance. In practice, this has become increasingly difficult in busy urban areas. I tried recently to pick up a clearance in the air, and the controller was not happy. In another instance, I was simply getting a clearance for a plan already filed (took off in VMC). It took 3 controllers in different sectors, 25 minutes. That feels like eternity when you're flying. Granted, this is So Cal!

 

[Shawn]

On the nomenclature. "Pop up" is the shorthand term most of us use to describe a VFR aircraft requesting an IFR clearance. It is even in the ATC Handbook, as a descriptive term, but not as part of a dialog.

"Pop Ups" are part of every day flying out west if you live in NorCal or SoCal with the marine layer and that is the terminology used. Marine layer never does what it is supposed to and ATC expects and issues them all the time and works with pilots to make them happen. On my last request, ATC asked "can you maintain VFR until XXX?" "Yup, just need one for the approach"..."Perfect, will have one for you by then"...easy peasy.