I Believe We Are Doing This Wrong

DJTorrente

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DJTorrente
I was just reading another thread here where the pilot/owner told of his $75k airframe unexpectedly requiring a >$50k engine replacement due to cracks in the camshaft, crankshaft, and cylinders. Oh, and its AOG for a year. I cast no shade on his decision to bear up and pay. In fact I am immensely grateful, because each fewer pilot makes it harder for the rest to continue, and every one more makes it better.

That said, to my estimation -- having never done it myself -- after paying $75k for a vehicle, when the time comes for it to need service, one is admitted to luxuriously appointed service department waiting room where they play calming music, have cappuccino machines and serve baked goods made fresh daily. Oh, and free loaner vehicles if your service is extended.

A service bill of $50k should buy you a spare vehicle to tow behind yours, should the former ever break down again.

What is it about GenAv aircraft/engines? is it simply the age (condition) of the stock? The age (capability) of the designs? I've owned half a dozen engines in my life. None have developed cracks -- especially not in critical and substantial internal components -- without having been run into something hard at high speed. The only IC engines I know of that require this level of maintenance are those explicitly used for drag or track racing.

Am I taking crazy pills?
 
Airplane engines are treated by pilots like drag race car engines are treated by their drivers. This isn’t a criticism of pilots. It’s just that every airplane takeoff is full-throttle, like a drag race start. But driving a car on city streets never involves putting the pedal to the floor.
 
Limited supply in an (almost) monopolized market. You depend on the overhaulers. It's their way or the highway, unfortunately. Ambulance chasers also add to the cost.

And we're not united (as a community) in coming up with a modern replacement engine. This is what AOPA should be backing up, instead of that steaming pile of a trainwreck called PAFI. Have a one or two-year research period, identify a suitable engine to replace all 150-200hp powerplants, come up with a package that bolts it to an existing engine mount and a suitable fuel system mod to ensure it will run on pump gas at any altitude, and certify it for less than half the cost of an O-360. They'll sell like crazy, and the success will only come through producing them in great numbers. Every piston single flying today will need an engine overhaul (or a new engine) in the next 10-20 years. Plan to amortize that capital investment accordingly.
If that succeeds, target an O-540 replacement next. I'd say the 912 and derivatives would cover the O-200/O-235 market well if an effort was made to buy enough of them to lower the price and certify them for all (major) current airframes using them.

Oh, and on the topic of ambulance chasers. AOPA should also be on the forefront of deterring all the frivolous lawsuits by providing proper legal services to member individuals and corporations that wouldn't bring them into ruin. But that's a thread drift for another day.
 
"What other modern engines use carburetors instead of fuel injection?"
The newer engines are fuel-injected.

"What other modern engines are air/oil cooled instead of water-cooled?"
Because water-cooled/anti-freeze/whatever adds substantial weight to a vehicle that's already pushing the limits.

But overall agreement. The aviation piston engine is such a small market that there's not much motivation to improve it. ROI issues.
 
What is it about GenAv aircraft/engines? is it simply the age (condition) of the stock? The age (capability) of the designs?
For one, there is zero comparison between aircraft and vehicles and their engines. There have been numerous threads on this and the reasons why.

As to the service costs, you have an ever-declining small section of the GA market (private, recreational Part 91 aircraft) with an equally declining service provider network, which in turn sets the economics of scale for those costs.

Then you throw in what an owner wants to pay for those services and so on. But in my experience while an aircraft owner will gladly pay $150+/hour shop rate to have their vehicle worked on, a number of those same owners will cry bloody murder if they are charged over a $100/hr to work on their aircraft. And they act appropriately.

As to the condition and design of aircraft engines they still perform to spec when they are operated and maintained properly. You’ll find in most cases those $50k bills usually have their root cause in some form of neglect on the operating side, maintenance side, or both. For example, have known some owners to consistently get 2700hrs+ out of engines with minimal break downs. But they operated them with OEM limits, performed all the recommended maintenance but more importantly they flew the aircraft regularly.
Have a one or two-year research period, identify a suitable engine to replace all 150-200hp powerplants, come up with a package that bolts it to an existing engine mount and a suitable fuel system mod to ensure it will run on pump gas at any altitude, and certify it for less than half the cost of an O-360.
But any owner can do that now and at a cheaper cost than most think. However, I would leave the certification part out till later. Why not pick up where the CorsairV8 project left off? Or throw a Rotax on the front of 172 under Experimental Exhibition and once you have finalized the install while flying, assemble a package and start selling firewall-forward E/E kits to raise capital for the STC or whatever certification. If the market is as "crazy" as you state it should be a no brainer to start it now?

Simply follow the existing regulatory requirements while developing the Rotax E/E package so when the move is made certification all the basics are covered. For example, a guy in the UK is building a new design turbine helicopter as an E/AB but is following all the current Part 27/33 requirements. His plan is once the E/AB model is flying he’ll use that money and data to seamlessly certify the E/AB model as a TC model.
 
For the sake of comparison, see this table listing a variety of engines by cc/HP. A top fuel drag race engine (which requires a full rebuild per "use") is about 1cc/HP; most auto engines are in a range of 12-15.

Not on the chart, an IO-360 (5.9L) making 200 HP would be almost 30. That seems to me like we're not asking a lot of the metal.

[edited because math is hard]
 
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Why don't we have a retrofit option to put something like Rotax 915i or 916i into a C172 or PA28?
Because you haven't started the retro process. The only way this will happen is at the grassroots level. AOPA, EAA, Cessna, Piper, Lycoming and so will not start this. Personally, I've always thought this was doable but you know how those pilots can be....;)
The real question is: How much will it cost in time and dollars to get it certified, and how many could be sold each year?
Forget certification for now. Start by researching what it will take to put one in your aircraft just as the "plan" calls for above.
So how much will it cost to research the available engines, engine mounting, cowling, controls, fuel supply, EW&B, etc.? Your time. Cost "$0.00" (but keep track of your hours).
Once you have a basic plan move to the next level. Say you select a Rotax TC'd engine. To manage cost maybe inquire with Rotax on a loaner engine? Next maybe contact an engine mount shop and see if they'll discount adapting a Rotax mount to a mount pattern for a 172. And so on.
This kind of planning and looking goes on all the time in the industry just not at the Part 91 recreational level as most owners think this is out of their league. But its not.
And with all the resources you have at your fingertips today, you can probably simply post solely on PoA and get all your research done collectively by the resident peanut gallery. So what's stopping you?
 
Airplane engines are treated by pilots like drag race car engines are treated by their drivers. This isn’t a criticism of pilots. It’s just that every airplane takeoff is full-throttle, like a drag race start. But driving a car on city streets never involves putting the pedal to the floor.

You're doing that wrong. :devil:
 
Limited supply in an (almost) monopolized market. You depend on the overhaulers. It's their way or the highway, unfortunately. Ambulance chasers also add to the cost.

And we're not united (as a community) in coming up with a modern replacement engine. This is what AOPA should be backing up, instead of that steaming pile of a trainwreck called PAFI. Have a one or two-year research period, identify a suitable engine to replace all 150-200hp powerplants, come up with a package that bolts it to an existing engine mount and a suitable fuel system mod to ensure it will run on pump gas at any altitude, and certify it for less than half the cost of an O-360. They'll sell like crazy, and the success will only come through producing them in great numbers. Every piston single flying today will need an engine overhaul (or a new engine) in the next 10-20 years. Plan to amortize that capital investment accordingly.
If that succeeds, target an O-540 replacement next. I'd say the 912 and derivatives would cover the O-200/O-235 market well if an effort was made to buy enough of them to lower the price and certify them for all (major) current airframes using them.

Oh, and on the topic of ambulance chasers. AOPA should also be on the forefront of deterring all the frivolous lawsuits by providing proper legal services to member individuals and corporations that wouldn't bring them into ruin. But that's a thread drift for another day.

Not gonna happen. The STC cost alone for how many airframes?
And owners are both cheap, and full of talk when it comes to engines. There have been STC approved electric ignition engines for many certified engines for a long time now. How many here have them installed? They are cheaper to operate, use less fuel, less MX costs....

Tim
 
Airplane engines are treated by pilots like drag race car engines are treated by their drivers. This isn’t a criticism of pilots. It’s just that every airplane takeoff is full-throttle, like a drag race start. But driving a car on city streets never involves putting the pedal to the floor.
That full throttle is limited. It's not like you are running at the actual limits of the engine. Even so for an O-540 on a retract you're getting, 150kts for 2000 hours before you probably need to start thinking about replacing it. Some guys go 3000 before OH. That's 300,000-450,000nm (only counting through the air, not across the ground) before rebuild - if we are running at "full throttle." Run your car at full throttle and let me know how long it lasts.

And no it's not a drag race start. Well not outside the rental fleet anyway.
 
Not gonna happen. The STC cost alone for how many airframes?
And owners are both cheap, and full of talk when it comes to engines. There have been STC approved electric ignition engines for many certified engines for a long time now. How many here have them installed? They are cheaper to operate, use less fuel, less MX costs....

Tim
When my next mag is up for OH or eats itself, I'm putting one in. When the next one goes, probably do the other as well. Just like I didn't go replacing my incandescent light bulbs with LEDs before the incandescent burned out.
 
That said, to my estimation -- having never done it myself -- after paying $75k for a vehicle, when the time comes for it to need service, one is admitted to luxuriously appointed service department waiting room where they play calming music, have cappuccino machines and serve baked goods made fresh daily. Oh, and free loaner vehicles if your service is extended.
I paid $25k for a sporty car in 1996 as my daily driver.

28 years later, it's still my daily driver. I've rebuilt the engine twice for ~$10k+ each, and have spent many tens of thousands of dollars in other maintenance along the way.

I could easily have purchased multiple new cars for the price I have paid in maintaining this one.

I don't do it because it makes financial sense. I do it because I like the car and want to keep driving it.

A service bill of $50k should buy you a spare vehicle to tow behind yours, should the former ever break down again.
No, it should simply make you ask yourself whether you think keeping and maintaining this vehicle is worthwhile to you. If/when you decide the answer is, "No," then you sell or otherwise dispose of the vehicle requiring the expensive service.

What is it about GenAv aircraft/engines? is it simply the age (condition) of the stock? The age (capability) of the designs? I've owned half a dozen engines in my life. None have developed cracks -- especially not in critical and substantial internal components -- without having been run into something hard at high speed. The only IC engines I know of that require this level of maintenance are those explicitly used for drag or track racing.

Am I taking crazy pills?
GenAv engines may be more expensive than cars, but here's a little secret you may not have heard yet: Everything in GA is more expensive than the automotive equivalents.

My friends think I'm taking crazy pills when they see what I do to keep my car on the road.

I don't tell them anything about what I do to keep my plane in the air...they'd probably arrange an intervention....
 
We fly behind big oversquare slow turning air cooled aircraft engines. They, except in a few cases, are designed to provide full rated horsepower for the life of the engine. Which is amazing and has a weight and fuel penalty.

Cars have big marketing hp numbers but they spend most of their lives loafing down the road at 7-15% power. There is no comparison.

The longest lasting engines in the fleet are often the O-320 and O-360 Lycs. They are flown by students, sure, but they are flown. That’s the key. Not unheard of them to go way beyond TBO if applicable from a regulatory standpoint.

The owner operator buys a 750 SMOH engine, flies 75 hours a year, and figures he or she has a good ten years before rebuild, especially because they are “gentle” with low temps and good vibes.

Too often those 750 initial hours were over 15 years, weighted toward the initial period of love when the previous owner put 600 of those hours on in the first 5 years. Then not so much.

What happens is five years later, or 20 years since the major overhaul, the cam takes a crap and it’s rebuild time at 1000 hours or so. That doesn’t count a few cylinder/valve issues along the way.

Aircraft engines rust out they don’t get a chance to wear out in most owners’ hands. Run the engine 20-40 hours a months and it’ll go a lot of hours.
 
Well you seem to be comparing a general aviation airplane to a modern automobile. Is there actually a place that overhauls the engines of modern cars? Wouldn't you just get a replacement on a warranty claim or more likely just dump the car and buy a new one?

Oh and BTW, a $75k dollar vehicle, you mean like an F-150 or a Honda minivan?
 
Yes, you can buy rebuilt auto engines. Replacement is only viable because of the price of a new one is so low. Are you sure we disagree here?
Well you seem to be comparing a general aviation airplane to a modern automobile. Is there actually a place that overhauls the engines of modern cars? Wouldn't you just get a replacement on a warranty claim or more likely just dump the car and buy a new one?

Oh and BTW, a $75k dollar vehicle, you mean like an F-150 or a Honda minivan?
A new top of the line Honda minivan is $50k. A new F150 is about $60k. (De gustibus, non disputandam.) Those are factory new vehicles; not decades old like typical GenAv stock.
 

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When my next mag is up for OH or eats itself, I'm putting one in. When the next one goes, probably do the other as well. Just like I didn't go replacing my incandescent light bulbs with LEDs before the incandescent burned out.
So the STC has been around for a single mag for roughly a decade. Most planes fly enough to have done at least one mag in the past decade. How come so few have? Why is only now, you are going to do one?

Tim
 
So the STC has been around for a single mag for roughly a decade. Most planes fly enough to have done at least one mag in the past decade. How come so few have? Why is only now, you are going to do one?

Tim
They may have been STCd that long, but my A & P had come across a number of them not working properly in the beginning. They were planes brought to him also, so not him having install issues. He advised against it until the bugs were worked out. Now that he's seen more success with them, he suggested I go that route.

I mean, sure, you could buy the A model immediately and hope it works. Guess what, the adage held true. That's why I didn't. Now that it's FINALLY approved for dual install, that may say a little more about the mortality rate of them.
 
I just installed the ElectroAir dual EIS on my R182. Be very aware that if you have a Lycoming O-540-J3C5D engine, you will most likely have to also install a high torque/high rpm starter because the EIS requires 50rpm on the prop before it begins to function. This is not a single plane problem - numbers of owners of this engine, with the Electroair dual EIS, are having this very same problem. The FAA is aware, but nothing is done. I have to wonder about an engine failure in flight, and what happens if the prop isn't windmilling at or above 50rpm? To my way of thinking, this is a safety of flight issue.

Tomorrow (literally) my mechanic is installing the new starter (all-in cost about $2k) and this should render my static display operational again. I say should...
 
Surely by now someone has figured out a way to take one of those reliable, efficient, inexpensive auto engines and replace all our horrible airplane engines.
 
They may have been STCd that long, but my A & P had come across a number of them not working properly in the beginning. They were planes brought to him also, so not him having install issues. He advised against it until the bugs were worked out. Now that he's seen more success with them, he suggested I go that route.

I mean, sure, you could buy the A model immediately and hope it works. Guess what, the adage held true. That's why I didn't. Now that it's FINALLY approved for dual install, that may say a little more about the mortality rate of them.

I have followed ElectroAir and SureFly for a while. Both products have had very minimal changes in years. Most of the issues I have seen posted and discussed have been caused by poorly maintained electrical systems causing problems; not by the electrical ignition system.
In terms of dual install. The FAA wanted gobs of data, not just engineering "design proof", but actually experience in the field. What is really stupid I think; was FAA applying new standards; that no current magneto system could actually come close to passing the new standards.

Tim
 
Surely by now someone has figured out a way to take one of those reliable, efficient, inexpensive auto engines and replace all our horrible airplane engines.
If they had, who could they sell it to without spending 6-7 figure$$ on certification?
 
Also, just economy of scale.
How many airplane engines are made compared to automobile engines?
But what if they were largely the same engine? I'm actually partial to the diesel engines because they completely sidestep the 100LL problem. Everyone on the airport could use one fuel.
 
1) How many car engines are run continuously at even 65% of rated out put or more? A car engine on the highway is at less than 10% of rated output.

2) Continental designed a modern engine, and no one wanted it.

3) Even if you were to come up with a replacement for the O/IO-360, how much to get it certified on the number of planes that use a version of that engine. So how much for the STC and engine and accessories and how many people would pay that much?
 
Be careful what you wish for:


That was a Bill Clapp conversion. Besides, no one yet knows the reason for the loss of power ...
 
Every engine that gets used on a race track gets run at 100% the majority of its operating life. Generally, they are either derated intentionally or have relatively short rebuild intervals.
But look at the cc/HP chart I linked above. A top fuel dragster engine gets torn down and rebuilt after every run -- not practical for our purposes -- but it puts out 1 HP per cc. Those "loafing" car engines put out 1 HP per 15cc. An IO-360 @ 200 HP is just under 1 HP per 30cc. Likewise an IO-540 (8.85L) rated for 300 HP. They're working half as hard at peak as an auto engine.
 
What is it about GenAv aircraft/engines? is it simply the age (condition) of the stock? The age (capability) of the designs? I've owned half a dozen engines in my life. None have developed cracks -- especially not in critical and substantial internal components -- without having been run into something hard at high speed. The only IC engines I know of that require this level of maintenance are those explicitly used for drag or track racing.
They're old and many have been overhauled many times. Some have had propstrikes that were never properly addressed. The old mechanics used to put a dial indicatior on the crank flange and if it was within .010" runout, they'd let it go. And the crank would sometimes then fail. The problem was that the crank would twist enough to start a crack, and spring back to nearly normal. But that crack would continue to grow. BTDT, in flight. No fun.
Have a one or two-year research period, identify a suitable engine to replace all 150-200hp powerplants, come up with a package that bolts it to an existing engine mount and a suitable fuel system mod to ensure it will run on pump gas at any altitude, and certify it for less than half the cost of an O-360. They'll sell like crazy, and the success will only come through producing them in great numbers.
Lycoming has its iE2 engine out for at least 15 years. Fully electronic ignition and fuel injection and FADEC, everything pilots and owners want, but how many are buying it? Nearly nobody. It's not cheap, as the R&D and certification isn't cheap. But pilots are cheap.
Consider this:

What other modern engines use magnetos instead of electronic ignition?
What other modern engines run on leaded fuel?
What other modern engines use carburetors instead of fuel injection?
What other modern engines use manual mixture control instead of closed-loop automated control?
What other modern engines must run at air densities from below MSL to 25,000+?
What other modern engines are air/oil cooled instead of water-cooled?

The list goes on and on. GA has boxed itself into a corner with our application requirements. As a result, we're on a technological island all by ourselves, with no other industry helping to share our development and tooling costs.
Almost all of what we have in the old engines was developed for the military and paid for by them. Anything new is paid for by we pilots or owners, since the military doesn't buy Lycomings or Continentals anymore, and hasn't for a long time.
But in my experience while an aircraft owner will gladly pay $150+/hour shop rate to have their vehicle worked on, a number of those same owners will cry bloody murder if they are charged over a $100/hr to work on their aircraft. And they act appropriately.
The guy needs his car. He doesn't need his airplane, so he complains. Add in the fact that he buys an old airplane for cheap and somehow thinks the maintenance should therefore be cheap, as if mechanics do this for fun, and the parts should be at the same prices as when the airplane was built. Wishful thinking, completely detached from reality.
A top fuel drag race engine (which requires a full rebuild per "use") is about 1cc/HP; most auto engines are in a range of 12-15.

Not on the chart, an IO-360 (5.9L) making 200 HP would be almost 30. That seems to me like we're not asking a lot of the metal.
That aircraft engine is made as light as possible for its power, and it is stressed. If the pilot abuses it, he will pay for it. Too many have no idea what mixture is all about, nor why he shouldn't bang the throttle open. And then the guys that ground-run the engine, thinking they're helping it last longer?
Surely by now someone has figured out a way to take one of those reliable, efficient, inexpensive auto engines and replace all our horrible airplane engines.
The homebuilders have been doing it since the 1930s. No conversion has been spectacularly successful. In fact, many fool with a conversion for a long time, trying to make it work well and safely, and ultimately give up and stick a Lyc on the nose and go flying. I've been there, installing a Subaru in a Glastar. Spent a lot of time working the bugs out of it, and even then it had shortcomings.
Also, just economy of scale.
How many airplane engines are made compared to automobile engines?
Well, for 2019, just before Covid, there were about 97 million cars and light trucks built worldwide. In that same year, 1100 light aircraft were built and delivered worldwide. The ratio is about 88,000:1. It is therefore amazing that airplanes and engines don't cost more than they do.
And why would a current magneto system fail?
Neglect, mostly. The manufacturers recommend 500-hour inspections (400 hours for Bendix/TCM) but most are run until they fail. In flight. Which is insanely stupid, in my view.
I would suggest looking at modern race engines for F1, LeMans, and Indycars. They are now getting better than 50% thermal efficiency and running hundreds of hours at full throttle.
And how much does one of those engines cost?
 
Airplane engines are treated by pilots like drag race car engines are treated by their drivers. This isn’t a criticism of pilots. It’s just that every airplane takeoff is full-throttle, like a drag race start. But driving a car on city streets never involves putting the pedal to the floor.

Airplane engines have it easy ... Sprint cars are at 9000 RPM (rather than the 2400 we have at take off). I've had a LOT of Tiger owners ask me what they can't get 2500 RPM on the roll but do in the air ... told them that is normal (and they're usually 2350 to 2400). I can get near 2600 with CS Prop in the RV7.
 
The homebuilders have been doing it since the 1930s. No conversion has been spectacularly successful. In fact, many fool with a conversion for a long time, trying to make it work well and safely, and ultimately give up and stick a Lyc on the nose and go flying. I've been there, installing a Subaru in a Glastar. Spent a lot of time working the bugs out of it, and even then it had shortcomings.
Exactly my point. I like my Lyc.
 
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Neglect, mostly. The manufacturers recommend 500-hour inspections (400 hours for Bendix/TCM) but most are run until they fail. In flight. Which is insanely stupid, in my view.
FYI: my question was in reference to some "new" certification standards for e-mags that the old conventional mags supposedly can not pass.
 
Neglect, mostly. The manufacturers recommend 500-hour inspections (400 hours for Bendix/TCM) but most are run until they fail. In flight. Which is insanely stupid, in my view.
When I bought my RV-8, I noted that the engine log included an entry at 500 hours for an inspection of the Slick mag (the other ignition was a Light Speed Plasma electronic). The entry said it checked OK. At around 850 hours I got a couple bad mag checks (excessive RPM drop, noticeably more roughness during normal operation than normal) and eliminated other possible sources. It went in for condition inspection right then anyway, so we pulled the mag and sent it to a repair station for IRAN.

The repair station owner called a couple days later and said that every part in the mag was beyond service limits. He said that no way could a proper 500 hour inspection have been done, because some of the parts were so worn that they had to have been well-worn by then.

Looking back at the log entry, it just said “500 hour mag inspection OK”, signed by the previous owner. No reference to who actually did the inspection or what guidance or standard was followed (if any). Almost certain that the inspection was done by the owner who didn’t exactly have the mechanical chops to be doing that. So I’ll chalk that up to neglect, because to my mind a well-meaning but unqualified person inspecting a critical component is as bad as a qualified person not doing the inspection.
 
Well, they put them in street cars (Ferrari, McLaren) that cost a lot less than a new Piper M350 or Cirrus SR22.
That doesn't tell me what the engine costs. The engine in a Cirrus is maybe $80k new. What is the airplane? $700k? The engine/car ratio won't be the same. The car isn't full of expensive certified avionics. And the car's manufacturer liability won't be nearly as much as the airplane's. The car's engine will be a bigger chunk of its selling price.
 
It can tell you enough to make a comparison. The McLaren Artura starts at ~$250K with a ~600 hp V-6 engine and a hybrid boost system for another 100 hp or so. The car itself is mostly carbon fiber, so the V6 is clearly not the majority of the cost. Even if it's a full 1/3 of the selling price (which seems very unlikely for any sports car), it would be about the same price as the Cirrus engine, which has only about 1/3 the power output of the McLaren.


....and now, here I sit asking myself why I'm looking at planes instead of another car, again..... :mad2:
Cause you can only “fly” a car once.
 
Every engine that gets used on a race track gets run at 100% the majority of its operating life. Generally, they are either derated intentionally or have relatively short rebuild intervals.
That was the point. No 2000 hour TBOs. :D
 
Well, they put them in street cars (Ferrari, McLaren) that cost a lot less than a new Piper M350 or Cirrus SR22.
No, they put in a high performance street engine. Not the same engine as an F1 car.

And until the rules changes, F1 cars would use 2 - 3 engines PER race weekend. And that race is a max of 2 hours, and many did not make that.
 
But look at the cc/HP chart I linked above. A top fuel dragster engine gets torn down and rebuilt after every run -- not practical for our purposes -- but it puts out 1 HP per cc. Those "loafing" car engines put out 1 HP per 15cc. An IO-360 @ 200 HP is just under 1 HP per 30cc. Likewise an IO-540 (8.85L) rated for 300 HP. They're working half as hard at peak as an auto engine.

But that auto engine runs at a small fraction of the maximum power. An aircraft engine runs at 65% of rated power or higher for most of its life.
 
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