How to navigate thunderstorms?

EdFred said:
FSS has all the weather for the airports. I am not sure if ATC does.
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It has been awhile since I visited Seattle Center, but I recall a humonguous whiteboard suspended from the ceiling with local weather for a number of airports on it. These days, I would imagine that any wx info a controller would want is available at the click of a mouse.

Bob
 
ATC can solicit PIREPs as well, as I witnessed them doing (see above) for a guy who was stuck on top. They were actively asking pilots if there was clearing for him to get down in different areas within his range.
 
For scattered puffies in the Summer, I stay visual and on top of the haze layer. That allows me to see the cells from a long way away and navigate around them. I also use ADS-B to get a sense of movement, growth, and size. If things begin building, I stay on top as long as possible, looking for ADS-B "voids" between cells to lead me to better paths around them.

If I have to descend, I do mostly the same, but here in the SE, the low level haze makes navigating around them (and the rain) more difficult.

Obviously, the backup plan is to do a 180 to a local field and wait things out.
 
Several variables at play with navigating around thunderstorms. If they’re embedded, it’s best to just bag it and call it a day. Most of the activity that you’ll encounter in the SE is fairly easy to deviate around, especially this time of year. I don’t have any specific metric for how far to stay away laterally, but it’s more just what happens to work at the time. Depending on the size and strength, you may be able to get away with being a lot closer than other cells of greater magnitude.

One of those concepts that you just have to experiment with and gain experience on.
 
Well it's not 500nm of clouds, but wha tif you get a wx briefin - clear.
T/oO after 150nm clouds build
XM weather and ADS-B show METAR at desitnation clear skies.
You get to 400nm and its overcast...
 
TimRF79 said:
Well it's not 500nm of clouds, but wha tif you get a wx briefin - clear.
T/oO after 150nm clouds build
XM weather and ADS-B show METAR at desitnation clear skies.
You get to 400nm and its overcast...
Click to expand...

Been in similar situation trying outrun a cold front right PPL, lost the race and landed elsewhere to save my bacon
 
TimRF79 said:
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
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If you go with #1, consider this...
 
TimRF79 said:
Well it's not 500nm of clouds, but wha tif you get a wx briefin - clear.
T/oO after 150nm clouds build
XM weather and ADS-B show METAR at desitnation clear skies.
You get to 400nm and its overcast...
Click to expand...
Can you guarantee that no emergency will occur that will require a prompt landing while you're above the overcast?

Your weather briefing said clear...apparently because the weather guessers knew they were clearly wrong. Are you going to trust that they suddenly became right, and your destination will stay that way?
 
Collin Kaufman said:
As a brand new private pilot, I’ve never had the chance to fly around and navigate thunderstorms. On Thursday I’m scheduled for a VFR XC but it’s forecasted scattered thunderstorms.

Now obviously I won’t go if I’m any way concerned it could be dangerous and I’ll have ADSB in on board to keep a watch on them, but my question is how should I approach the situation, how much room should I have between me and the storm. Also any other tips or info you guys might have for me I would really appreciate. Thanks!
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Since you mentioned ADS-B and thunderstorms, this video from AOPA is well worth watching, if you haven't seen it already.
 
Excellent video! Thanks for sharing, great advice for VFR pilots and non-rated regular passengers.
 
TimRF79 said:
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
Click to expand...
Nowadays, you really don’t need to get with FSS. With ADS-B like Stratus and ForeFlight, you can look around you very quickly to see if there are nearby areas reporting VFR. Even if you don’t have a Stratus, or XM weather, you can dial up various AWOS freqs and see if there is a home within range and head for that. Within 5 minutes you’ll likely know if there is a way to extricate yourself and stay VFR. If not, then you go for option 1.

Option 3 is not an option.
 
My favorite way to navigate around thunderstorms is looking out the back window. Oh, that's right, I don't have one in my Mooney.

So I keep them out the side windows, or the rear side windows, and not very close. If there's a lot of them, I look out my truck windshield and am content being happy to wish I was up there in better weather.
 
Collin Kaufman said:
I’m in Florida flyin a c172. I’m not training. Just planning on taking my dad up for the first time and we’re gonna go get lunch at an FBO
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Does he fly often in small planes? If not you may be overly ambitious in your goal for the flight. Took my dad up for the first time a couple days ago and even though he thought he was going to enjoy it, he wanted to come back down right away. And I did everything right for a passengers first flight.
 
Ben2k9 said:
Does he fly often in small planes? If not you may be overly ambitious in your goal for the flight. Took my dad up for the first time a couple days ago and even though he thought he was going to enjoy it, he wanted to come back down right away. And I did everything right for a passengers first flight.
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No he doesn’t fly often in small planes but he is an airline captain! So it shouldn’t be a problem, and if it is he will never hear the end of it... haha
 
As a rule of thumb, as a new VFR pilot, I won’t fly over OVC. If it’s scattered, may be , depending on the situation and if I see multiple ads out. Holes close way faster than one thinks, and I ain’t getting stuck up there without an instrument rating. Flying over OVC, u don’t have ground contact, cloud layers are not always p effect and can give you a false sense of horizon, not flying that without IR either. A lot of bold VFR pilots do and post videos on YT. Not my thing.

Thunderstorms are whole diff ball game, I had one flight with a CFI around them. Let’s just say if you don’t know what you are doing, chances of being a statistics are very very high. I flew at the side and back, it was glass smooth and enjoyed every second, but won’t take that chance alone. The other thing I can’t wrap my head around is, if I stay low, how low is low? If the TS is at 12k and rain isn’t really hitting the ground, is 4K safe? 8k? Donno, so start away until I can figure it out.

OP with an experienced pilot in the rt seat, go for it.
 
Collin Kaufman said:
I’m in Florida flyin a c172. I’m not training. Just planning on taking my dad up for the first time and we’re gonna go get lunch at an FBO
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TimRF79 said:
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
Click to expand...

Get with ATC - if you don’t know the frequency use 121.5. Declare an emergency. They will then give you priority handling help get you down.
 
Ben2k9 said:
Does he fly often in small planes? If not you may be overly ambitious in your goal for the flight. Took my dad up for the first time a couple days ago and even though he thought he was going to enjoy it, he wanted to come back down right away. And I did everything right for a passengers first flight.
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In Florida, he’ll never fly in the summer if he doesn’t fly with t storms in the forecast.

But I would fly early, have brunch, and don’t layover too long until you have more experience.
 
Salty said:
In Florida, he’ll never fly in the summer if he doesn’t fly with t storms in the forecast.

But I would fly early, have brunch, and don’t layover too long until you have more experience.
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We depart at 8. I wouldn’t normally expect storms until the after noon but the forecasts is saying scattered storms which leads me to believe them to be all day. Normally the forecasts don’t really include random pop up t-storms
 
Five minutes, for a block of air to go from "empty" to containing a new cell. I got that from a weather radar guru - that is unusally fast, by his account, but not super-rare, either. They can start appearing like popcorn in the summer, and you can get surrounded.

Or, launch on the leading edge of a cold front, and they can come at you like a cavalry charge. Heck, Hurricane Hunters avoid the cells inside hurricanes.
 
Pick your way around them. Go on a long XC with precip with someone experienced and watch how they handle it. You'll learn how to tell the difference between "sucker holes" and actual gaps.
 
IMO, if it’s the scattered airmass stuff.. no big deal. Easy to see and go around.
The lines of storms, well, you’ll need a lot of gas to get around that. Likely more than what’s in your tank.
 
If you have a Wx radar or ADS-B with DL, ALWAYS circle them. Do no try to fly above or under them. When in doubt, call ATC, ask for Wx info. Most ATC have primary radars and are able to see thunderstorm cores, other have a layer on their scope with the Wx. If radar or Wx report are not available ask for PIREPs. Airliners with a proper Wx radar will be glad to help.

Flying OVC clouds in a C172 is not a big deal but, stay always out of icing and turbulence. Icing must be you fear no.1 when flying IMC in a light airplane as long as you have thunderstorms info. If you experience icing coinditions, change you altitude +-3000ft (check MSA) and you should be able to continue your flight. Consider flying VFR on top of clouds when possible.

TT
 
ktup-flyer said:
Pick your way around them. Go on a long XC with precip with someone experienced and watch how they handle it. You'll learn how to tell the difference between "sucker holes" and actual gaps.
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Can you elaborate on these sucker holes versus gaps?
 
scottd said:
Here's my definition. Sucker holes are those situations or flights where you haven't done a good preflight analysis of the weather guidance so you really don't know what to expect and are generally clueless using hope as your plan. Gaps are those situations where you have a good understand of the environment you are flying within after doing a thorough analysis of the weather guidance before departure giving you the confidence to know what to expect along your route to make good decisions.
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I always figured sucker holes are what you see from below, and gaps are what you see from above.
 
scottd said:
Ah, yes. I am not a fan of The Weather Channel forecasts. I prefer to use a deterministic model like we show in the WeatherSpork app. Gives you a much better understanding where the true threats are to aviation. The qualitative information it provides is far beyond what The Weather Channel forecasts can convey. Pulse-type convection is notoriously difficult to predict, but you can get a good sense of the overall big picture with these kinds of forecasts. Of course, you won't find these listed in any FAA curriculum, but I do provide some guidance on how to use them in my live workshops.

View attachment 65003
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Just downloaded app, looks pretty interesting. Going to learn more
 
scottd said:
Ah, yes. I am not a fan of The Weather Channel forecasts. I prefer to use a deterministic model like we show in the WeatherSpork app. Gives you a much better understanding where the true threats are to aviation. The qualitative information it provides is far beyond what The Weather Channel forecasts can convey. Pulse-type convection is notoriously difficult to predict, but you can get a good sense of the overall big picture with these kinds of forecasts. Of course, you won't find these listed in any FAA curriculum, but I do provide some guidance on how to use them in my live workshops.

View attachment 65003
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Awesome. Thank you so much. I’ll check that out. Do you have any more info on the workshops you put on?
 
As others have mentioned, ADS-B weather runs delayed...here is an example from a flight my girlfriend and I made last year...no rain/storms behind us, and as we encountered storms we saw:
1)ADS-B view:
upload_2018-7-16_13-38-10.png

View out the left side:
upload_2018-7-16_13-41-7.png

View out the right side:

upload_2018-7-16_13-41-34.png

Yet straight ahead was clear...That obviously does not appear similar to the iPad radar view of the weather! (We landed at Muncie, btw, to wait it out).
 
WannFly said:
As a rule of thumb, as a new VFR pilot, I won’t fly over OVC. If it’s scattered, may be , depending on the situation and if I see multiple ads out. Holes close way faster than one thinks, and I ain’t getting stuck up there without an instrument rating. Flying over OVC, u don’t have ground contact, cloud layers are not always p effect and can give you a false sense of horizon, not flying that without IR either. A lot of bold VFR pilots do and post videos on YT. Not my thing.

Thunderstorms are whole diff ball game, I had one flight with a CFI around them. Let’s just say if you don’t know what you are doing, chances of being a statistics are very very high. I flew at the side and back, it was glass smooth and enjoyed every second, but won’t take that chance alone. The other thing I can’t wrap my head around is, if I stay low, how low is low? If the TS is at 12k and rain isn’t really hitting the ground, is 4K safe? 8k? Donno, so start away until I can figure it out.

OP with an experienced pilot in the rt seat, go for it.
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Agreed- I did my first couple long flights recently where cloud coverage was an issue. I deviated a little from course to stay on the edge of the thicker coverage, or only went straight over it when I could see where it ended either visually or by checking AWOS at airports around me. Also cancelled an afternoon/evening flight home due to TS enroute and just as I was going to bed in the hotel, at exactly the time I would have arrived (and it would be getting dark) I pulled up radar and saw a solid line directly across my path right about where I would have been - no way I could have gone around without flying 100 miles out of the way. That was a good lesson.
 

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scottd said:
Yes, the WeatherSpork app will continue since it was just released in March - so part of the reason for stepping away from the live workshops is to focus my time 100% on the app. We've got dozens of new features to develop in the app and I expect the next round of live workshops in a couple years will be to teach weather using the app. If you go to our YouTube channel (http://youtube.com/weatherspork) you will see how valuable the training can be to learn how to minimize your exposure to adverse weather. The last one I recorded was designed to teach you how to use the app to find that perfect time to depart with thunderstorms in the forecast.
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Are you going to have training in some form to go with the app?
 
scottd said:
Can you be more specific with "training" with the app? Are you looking for a beginners "overview" of the app? I do have a number of good videos on YouTube that show how to use the app in the context of preflight planning and some of the workshops in the training library show you how to use/interpret the imagery (not the other views). In my live workshops in September I will be using WeatherSpork in that training.
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I know you've talked many times about how useful these products are if you have proper training. Also you said above that the two workshops in September are probably the last ones, so I wondered how somebody (me even) could get that training after September? Of does the app somehow encapsulate that knowledge so we don't need the training?
 
scottd said:
If you want to maximize the use of the app, training is strongly encouraged (and I'm not just talking about button-ology or learning the meaning of the various icons or colors used in the app). But some of the training described below isn't specific to the WeatherSpork app. You can apply it to whatever service you currently use to get your preflight weather...including calling 1800WXBRIEF. When I do a live workshop I use my website/app as teaching tools to better understand how to minimize your exposure to adverse weather.

I have about 80 bite-sized workshops that are included with the subscription (they can be viewed on avwxworkshops.com or within the app). They cover a wide range of topics that include some of the weather forecasts you'll find in the imagery in WeatherSpork. You can view some free ones here. Besides the live workshops, I do offer one-on-one online training. Because the app is so deep in what it provides, this is perhaps the best way to learn about weather, albeit, not the cheapest. Members receive a discount. I also offer premium workshops that delve deeper into the weather topics and those include a videotaped recording of a live workshop I held in Fort Worth two years ago as well as another one I held in Charlotte a year ago. They require a separate purchase, but once you own them, you retain access to them even if your membership expires. As already mentioned, there are many YouTube videos out there that are more recent and show how to use the WeatherSpork app in context of preflight planning. And I've got dozens of magazine articles available as well, freely available to anyone. So, live workshops are not the only source of training.
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That answers my question. Thanks.
 
TimRF79 said:
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
Click to expand...

option 4 don't go over top unless you got the gas to make it to a know vfr
 
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