How to navigate thunderstorms?

Collin Kaufman

Collin Kaufman

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Ckflyer13
As a brand new private pilot, I’ve never had the chance to fly around and navigate thunderstorms. On Thursday I’m scheduled for a VFR XC but it’s forecasted scattered thunderstorms.

Now obviously I won’t go if I’m any way concerned it could be dangerous and I’ll have ADSB in on board to keep a watch on them, but my question is how should I approach the situation, how much room should I have between me and the storm. Also any other tips or info you guys might have for me I would really appreciate. Thanks!
 
Oh boy, you are going to get a lot of advice here. Some of it contradictory but all from experience.

What part of the country? What plane? Are you going somewhere or just training?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
As noted by Bill, "It depends..." We need more information in order to help you.
 
My single biggest learning experience I got on the east coast when I used to fly in Boston. VFR only.. with a clear day and some thunderstorms that were clearly visible and in their own little cells.. so they looked very easy to navigate with wide berth. Well... here I am with like 61 hrs and my way home closed up behind me.. that was unsettling, and I ended up spending a couple hours in Jaffrey until my path home cleared up

So basically... plan way ahead, give them PLENTY of room, and be prepared to land somewhere else and change your plans.. and don't take for granted that you can always turn back and go home.. in my case the way home ended up being the stormiest
 
Bill Watson said:
Oh boy, you are going to get a lot of advice here. Some of it contradictory but all from experience.

What part of the country? What plane? Are you going somewhere or just training?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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I’m in Florida flyin a c172. I’m not training. Just planning on taking my dad up for the first time and we’re gonna go get lunch at an FBO
 
EdFred said:
If VFR, stay low/under the cloud layer and avoid the rain shafts. You don't want to get stuck on top of a SCT --> BKN --> OVC layer that keeps rising and rising and rising.
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That’s true. Didn’t even think about that
 
Collin Kaufman said:
That’s true. Didn’t even think about that
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I'm IR, but did the "I'll get on top it will be easier to navigate the cells." Well, soon I was above 12,500 and called and got a clearance to descend. Without the IR, it would have been a big problem. Even being IR, if it's embedded, I go VFR and go low. (I don't have a turbo, and I don't have oxygen)
 
Use ADSB/ XM weather, etc. as a tool to see where they're developing and what direction they're moving. Don't use ADSB or XM as a current picture because they lag as more than 15 minutes sometimes and storms here (I'm in Central Florida as well) move FAST sometimes. 50+ mph over the ground on occasion. @EdFred gave good advice about rain shafts above. But know which way they're moving and how fast too. And give them 20+ miles of space.

Better yet, fly early in the morning. It's bumpy as all get out once the heat starts to kick up.

John
 
jsstevens said:
Use ADSB/ XM weather, etc. as a tool to see where they're developing and what direction they're moving. Don't use ADSB or XM as a current picture because they lag as more than 15 minutes sometimes and storms here (I'm in Central Florida as well) move FAST sometimes. 50+ mph over the ground on occasion. @EdFred gave good advice about rain shafts above. But know which way they're moving and how fast too. And give them 20+ miles of space.

Better yet, fly early in the morning. It's bumpy as all get out once the heat starts to kick up.

John
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Very true on the delay. I also have a strike finder in my plane which coupled with the Nexrad works very well. I will punch through yellow and even red on the radar if my strike finder is not showing any strikes - of course that's flying IFR and in the muck.
 
Also, be conservative about situations where you have clouds/rain to both sides, and "oh, there's a nice clear hole, I'll just zip through there and be past it!" It can close up surprisingly fast as you're heading for it. Leave more space rather than less, and be more willing to go farther out of your way than not (and plan fuel with that in mind). Don't be surprised to encounter up- or down-drafts you wouldn't normally expect in clear weather, though you won't always hit any.
 
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
 
TimRF79 said:
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
Click to expand...
I'm don't have a instrument rating...but I'm sure as hell not taking # 3.
 
I remember being up, when I heard ATC working with a guy, low on fuel, who was stuck on top. They were using PIREPs, trying to find him a hole. He was VFR only. I believe they did get him down.
 
Ok

Don’t rely on ADSB apps, stay visual (as in eyeballs) unless you have a radar pod or in the nose, and even then visual is ideal.

Don’t try to go downwind on a cell

If you’re going to try to cross over, you want 1,000’ for every 10kts in the cell

Be ready for a microburst and know how to deal with it, full power go around settings.

If you have a ADF they work as a ghetto strike finder

ATCs radar snd suggestions are nice, but secondary to eyeballs and/or onboard radar and should only be relied on if you already screwed up.

Don’t play with them in IMC or dark night unless you have real onboard radar

Sucker holes earned their name
 
Collin Kaufman said:
Now obviously I won’t go if I’m any way concerned it could be dangerous and I’ll have ADSB in on board to keep a watch on them, but my question is....
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I had a somewhat similar situation last Saturday. My plan was depart at 7pm on a 1hr flight. I knew there would be thunderstorms at my destination that should dissipate by the time I would arrive. I looked at wx several times that day. I called he briefer and had a good chat. I felt that wx was following what they were saying. So I had two alternates already in mind and called my wife to let her know where the alternates were. Took off right at 7pm.

Once I climbed up the ADSB wx came in. Yep, seeing the same thing there as on a radar app on my phone before I left. I could see it moving and breaking up a bit. Then about 10 minutes later....lost ADSB coverage. And it wasn't just for like 2 minutes, it was for about 35 minutes! As I was nearing a turn for my first abort (which would have been east) I was able to see fairly well ahead that I could go further. About the time I neared my second abort (right on my path) the ADSB from the MPS area finally came in. I could see the last remnants of the storm breaking up and now east of my destination.

It was a good and thankfully not too exciting reminder that ADSB wx will probably not be available when you need it most.

Have alternates planned. If it doesn't feel right, don't force it.
 
You should install clearer windows
 
TimRF79 said:
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
Click to expand...

Go with #1
91.3 and hope you can keep it straight and level in a descent, and that there's adequate room underneath.
 
TimRF79 said:
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
Click to expand...
I don't recommend this. I used to think flying through the clouds would be easy, until the first time I tried it. It is extremely easy to get disoriented and not know which way is up, or if you are in a 30degree bank or a 60 degree bank. It is difficult to understand how important it is to stay focused on the instruments, but not stare at any one. Keeping the scan going really does take training.
TimRF79 said:
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
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This would be my recommendation, but I still strongly recommend against getting into this situation in the first place, or you might accidentally be forced into #3.
TimRF79 said:
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
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I assume this is a joke, but see my previous comment.
 
TimRF79 said:
this brings up an interesting Question, let's say I don't have a IR (which I don't).
500nm xcountry and I fly above the clouds and all of sudden they close up and I am above a solid cloud layer at my destination.
After 500nm, I got about 1 hour of fuel left.

Would it be better to:
1.) Get with ATC and fly through the clouds,
2.) Get with a FSS and look for a scattered layer within reach of fuel
3.) Circle above the clouds until you run out of gas
Click to expand...

Yeah door number 1 gets my vote too. Confess early and get some help. I was ATC and we always were glad to help someone in trouble, comes with the job.

Door 2 and FSS really wouldn't be a lot of help, and if you go with door 3 write me n your will ok?
 
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Notify ATC as soon as you recognize that you might have a problem....that gives them more time to come up with solutions. Note that I did not say to notify them when you HAVE a problem....that is a no-brainer. If it turns out that your apprehensions were not justified, so what?

There are several pages at 1800wxbrief.com with information on convection. Find them, learn how to use them, and then be conservative.

To your point, however, I once flew about 20 miles downwind from a boomer over the Cascades and hail-dimpled a 172's wings to the point where I had to pay the deductible.

Bob
 
JOhnH said:
I don't recommend this. I used to think flying through the clouds would be easy, until the first time I tried it. It is extremely easy to get disoriented and not know which way is up, or if you are in a 30degree bank or a 60 degree bank. It is difficult to understand how important it is to stay focused on the instruments, but not stare at any one. Keeping the scan going really does take training.

This would be my recommendation, but I still strongly recommend against getting into this situation in the first place, or you might accidentally be forced into #3.

I assume this is a joke, but see my previous comment.
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If he's not worried about heading, but just descending and keeping it relatively on course for a minute or two (by relatively, I mean keep the airplane within 15 degrees of level), he can get away with staring. He's not trying to maintain altitude, he's not trying to maintain a course like flying IFR in the soup. He's just trying to get down. Stare at the AI for two minutes. This is emergency vs flying precisely. Reduce throttle 1" of MP for each 1000ft you need to lose, plus another 1" or 2", hold the wings level, and let gravity do its thing.
 
EdFred said:
If he's not worried about heading, but just descending and keeping it relatively on course for a minute or two (by relatively, I mean keep the airplane within 15 degrees of level), he can get away with staring. He's not trying to maintain altitude, he's not trying to maintain a course like flying IFR in the soup. He's just trying to get down. Stare at the AI for two minutes. This is emergency vs flying precisely. Reduce throttle 1" of MP for each 1000ft you need to lose, plus another 1" or 2", hold the wings level, and let gravity do its thing.
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I'll agree with that. I just have bad memories of the first time I got in the soup. Of course, that was around 40 years ago when I still had my medical. Also, I was flying an approach, and even though I had been training for it, and I did have a CFII in the plane, I still remember being on the verge of panic for the fist time in an airplane when I realized my eyes were lying to me.
 
EdFred said:
FSS has all the weather for the airports. I am not sure if ATC does.
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Hmm, I didn’t know that. Always figured ATC was capable of doing that. Thanks
 
JOhnH said:
I'll agree with that. I just have bad memories of the first time I got in the soup. Of course, that was around 40 years ago when I still had my medical. Also, I was flying an approach, and even though I had been training for it, and I did have a CFII in the plane, I still remember being on the verge of panic for the fist time in an airplane when I realized my eyes were lying to me.
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Yeah, I got the leans real bad the first couple times. Just took a lot of mental prep early on to ignore my inner ear. Now it's rare that I get any sort of SD.
 
Collin Kaufman said:
As a brand new private pilot, I’ve never had the chance to fly around and navigate thunderstorms. On Thursday I’m scheduled for a VFR XC but it’s forecasted scattered thunderstorms.

Now obviously I won’t go if I’m any way concerned it could be dangerous and I’ll have ADSB in on board to keep a watch on them, but my question is how should I approach the situation, how much room should I have between me and the storm. Also any other tips or info you guys might have for me I would really appreciate. Thanks!
Click to expand...


I'm going to put a little more caution here than most people.

Based on your thoughts about using ADS-B to keep you out of trouble and the fact you stated you didn't think about @EdFred 's advice about staying BELOW the clouds, and the fact you are a brand new private pilot- if there is risk of T-storms when you plan on flying stay on the ground.

I'm not saying it to be a jerk or rude or pick on you, but at that point of my flying I really didn't know what I didn't know and I have a feeling you are in the same boat as I was.

Safely navigating around T-storms is not as easy as people may lead you to believe. You should have a really good understanding of the risks, problems, and extra planning involved in a flight like that before launching into a T-storm outlook type weather.

Wait to you get much more x-country time, work a little on your instrument rating, and read "Weather Flying" by Robert Buck before getting involved in flying in a area at risk of T-Storms, even VFR.
 
EdFred said:
FSS has all the weather for the airports. I am not sure if ATC does.
Click to expand...

ATC can get it quickly. Centers actually have meteorologists on duty in the radar room, or used to.
 
neilw2 said:
I'm going to put a little more caution here than most people.

Based on your thoughts about using ADS-B to keep you out of trouble and the fact you stated you didn't think about @EdFred 's advice about staying BELOW the clouds, and the fact you are a brand new private pilot- if there is risk of T-storms when you plan on flying stay on the ground.

I'm not saying it to be a jerk or rude or pick on you, but at that point of my flying I really didn't know what I didn't know and I have a feeling you are in the same boat as I was.

Safely navigating around T-storms is not as easy as people may lead you to believe. You should have a really good understanding of the risks, problems, and extra planning involved in a flight like that before launching into a T-storm outlook type weather.

Wait to you get much more x-country time, work a little on your instrument rating, and read "Weather Flying" by Robert Buck before getting involved in flying in a area at risk of T-Storms, even VFR.
Click to expand...
I know ADS-B isn’t 100% accurate and is delayed. If it was by my self I wouldn’t go out if there were storms in my path and I understand what you’re saying, but my dad will be with my in the right seat and is a very seasoned pilot and that will make me much more comfortable flying around the storms
 
Collin Kaufman said:
I know ADS-B isn’t 100% accurate and is delayed. If it was by my self I wouldn’t go out if there were storms in my path and I understand what you’re saying, but my dad will be with my in the right seat and is a very seasoned pilot and that will make me much more comfortable flying around the storms
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That makes a big difference. I always hesitate to take any body new to GA up during any sort of unusual weather conditions.
 
Collin Kaufman said:
I know ADS-B isn’t 100% accurate and is delayed. If it was by my self I wouldn’t go out if there were storms in my path and I understand what you’re saying, but my dad will be with my in the right seat and is a very seasoned pilot and that will make me much more comfortable flying around the storms
Click to expand...

Well that changes everything! If you can depart VFR and there is FL scattered type T-Storms the definitely go! You will learn a lot flying around them if you got somebody next to you who has that experience already.
 
WannFly said:
i wont fly over a layer of cloud for 500 nm, period
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9D9 direct SRQ, over half of it was overcast. Bases around 1500, tops around 5000. Perfectly smooth relaxing flight in clear air above at 9000.
 
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