Here's a noggin scratcher

Timbeck2

Timbeck2

Final Approach
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
9,247
Location
Vail, Arizona
Display Name
Display name:
Timbeck2
Rhetorical but I have to share:

Approach calls me up and points out a Cessna 152 about 25 miles Northwest of us and tells me that the aircraft is experience engine roughness and may have to land at Davis Monthan AFB or possibly divert to Tucson International. At the time, the guy was about 2 miles East of Marana Airport, 4 miles Southeast of Pinal airport and based out of Eloy which was less than 15 miles away. ( I looked up his N number) His destination was Sierra Vista airport which is about 45 miles Southeast of Davis Monthan.

Who does that?
 
Makes sense to me. His rough running engine clearly jammed his control cables/yoke and he was SE bound heading 120 perfectly aligned with the DM runway. Case closed!
 
Radar Contact said:
Makes sense to me. His rough running engine clearly jammed his control cables/yoke and he was SE bound heading 120 perfectly aligned with the DM runway. Case closed!
Click to expand...

And probably wanted to take the cable and have the runway foamed. You don’t play around with engine roughness!
 
Walboy said:
He was too cheap to equip with ADS-B, so came up with a whopper to take a short cut.

You know pilots, anything to save a nickel.
Click to expand...

That is why we hate nickle because it is not a quarter...
 
Those 152s require lots of runway.
 
So....what are you going to do about it? and....Why does that affect you? o_O
 
What approach control points out a aircraft 25 miles away having a problem and then describes it to that aircraft. That’s the bizarre part.
 
Jeff767 said:
What approach control points out a aircraft 25 miles away having a problem and then describes it to that aircraft. That’s the bizarre part.
Click to expand...
the 'pointout' is an atc to atc term
but thinking about it, I have had traffic called out to me, in an airplane, that far away lol
(I'm 20/15 but even that's not good enough to see anything but a rocket from that far)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
the 'pointout' is an atc to atc term
but thinking about it, I have had traffic called out to me, in an airplane, that far away lol
(I'm 20/15 but even that's not good enough to see anything but a rocket from that far)
Click to expand...
I shared this about 5 years ago:

I was once overtaken by a baron on a cross county. I was on FF and he was IFR. He passed 500' directly under me, same heading. I decided to test my eyes (I have 20/20 vision) and determine how far away I could see an airplane. It was a slow day on the radio and I warned center of my plan. They agreed to play along. When I could no longer see the baron, I called center and asked the distance...


...three miles. Admittedly, the "visual target" presented by a plane flying directly away from you at the same altitude is smallest possible. But, still, I knew where it was!

When ATC calls traffic at ten miles I just laugh to myself and, of course, respond with "looking". But don't waste my time...well unless I'm in the Akron area and it's the blimp (I have actually experienced that!).
 
timwinters said:
I shared this about 5 years ago:

I was once overtaken by a baron on a cross county. I was on FF and he was IFR. He passed 500' directly under me, same heading. I decided to test my eyes (I have 20/20 vision) and determine how far away I could see an airplane. It was a slow day on the radio and I warned center of my plan. They agreed to play along. When I could no longer see the baron, I called center and asked the distance...


...three miles. Admittedly, the "visual target" presented by a plane flying directly away from you at the same altitude is smallest possible. But, still, I knew where it was!

When ATC calls traffic at ten miles I just laugh to myself and, of course, respond with "looking". But don't waste my time...well unless I'm in the Akron area and it's the blimp (I have actually experienced that!).
Click to expand...
That was a useful story.

As to Timbeck's noggin... Well; stop scratchin', you'll get impetigo!

Who knows what nefarious thoughts run through the minds of 150/2 drivers... Flying the "hoopties" of the sky.
 
timwinters said:
I shared this about 5 years ago:

I was once overtaken by a baron on a cross county. I was on FF and he was IFR. He passed 500' directly under me, same heading. I decided to test my eyes (I have 20/20 vision) and determine how far away I could see an airplane. It was a slow day on the radio and I warned center of my plan. They agreed to play along. When I could no longer see the baron, I called center and asked the distance...


...three miles. Admittedly, the "visual target" presented by a plane flying directly away from you at the same altitude is smallest possible. But, still, I knew where it was!

When ATC calls traffic at ten miles I just laugh to myself and, of course, respond with "looking". But don't waste my time...well unless I'm in the Akron area and it's the blimp (I have actually experienced that!).
Click to expand...
Yeah, I had a controller that called out a mooney passing me the opposite direction 10 miles away at closest point every 30 seconds and sounded annoyed that I never saw it.
On the other hand, my last flight I got a warning about a 747 that I saw easily more than 5 miles away.
 
Salty said:
Yeah, I had a controller that called out a mooney passing me the opposite direction 10 miles away at closest point every 30 seconds and sounded annoyed that I never saw it.
On the other hand, my last flight I got a warning about a 747 that I saw easily more than 5 miles away.
Click to expand...
I'd rather know about his trail.....I want to be above it when passing by.
 
timwinters said:
I shared this about 5 years ago:

I was once overtaken by a baron on a cross county. I was on FF and he was IFR. He passed 500' directly under me, same heading. I decided to test my eyes (I have 20/20 vision) and determine how far away I could see an airplane. It was a slow day on the radio and I warned center of my plan. They agreed to play along. When I could no longer see the baron, I called center and asked the distance...


...three miles. Admittedly, the "visual target" presented by a plane flying directly away from you at the same altitude is smallest possible. But, still, I knew where it was!

When ATC calls traffic at ten miles I just laugh to myself and, of course, respond with "looking". But don't waste my time...well unless I'm in the Akron area and it's the blimp (I have actually experienced that!).
Click to expand...

Every time I hear an example like this I just cringe at the thought of all the pilots who see a target on their ADS-B display and start focusing intently at something that they won't be able to see.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
So....what are you going to do about it? and....Why does that affect you? o_O
Click to expand...

As someone else said, yes I'm in the tower at DM. Nothing I could do about it so I scratched my noggin.

How does it affect me? If that guy HAD landed on my runway I would have had to ring out the crash phone, the cops would be involved and my runway would be useless until they figured out who he was, what he was doing and then get the plane off my runway. Meanwhile I would have to answer the question of why I let the guy land here in the first place.
 
prolly good that's all you were scratch'n....;)


you sound pretty important.....:eek:
 
Worked the Met Life blimp a few times on approach. 30 kts gs...painful!
 
Timbeck2 said:
...Meanwhile I would have to answer the question of why I let the guy land here in the first place.
Click to expand...
If his engine had failed at a time when your airfield was the only one within gliding distance, under 91.3(b) he would not have needed your permission to land. Of course, under the circumstances you describe, I can imagine that the FAA might take a dim view of his decision to fly away from civilian alternatives with a sick engine.
 
Palmpilot said:
If his engine had failed at a time when your airfield was the only one within gliding distance, under 91.3(b) he would not have needed your permission to land. Of course, under the circumstances you describe, I can imagine that the FAA might take a dim view of his decision to fly away from civilian alternatives with a sick engine.
Click to expand...

His engine doesn’t even have to fail. All that’s required is declaring an emergency. Engine roughness may or may not be an emergency. Sounds to me that the pilot wasn’t an emergency. If they were, they would’ve requested the nearest airfield. If they’re not, they have no business going to DM.
 
timwinters said:
When I could no longer see the baron, I called center and asked the distance...


...three miles.
Click to expand...

That exactly matches my experience. I was following a friend in his airplane. He took off before me and so had a slight lead, but I had about 5 knots on him, so a very slow closure rate. We both had ADS-B and could see each other on the iPad. At one point, using the ADS-B display, I could see he was crossing a prominent river that I could also see out the window. At the time he was a little more than 3 miles away. Even knowing exactly where he was, how far, altitude and everything, I still couldn't see him. No relative motion of course, and the smallest profile possible. Eventually we closed to about 3 miles and then I could just barely make him out. Obviously if he had been crossing my path, or silhouetted against the clouds or something I could have maybe seen him a little farther out. But it taught me that when ATC calls out small GA traffic at 10 miles or whatever, there's almost no point in me starting to look yet. Airliners, yes. Cessna 152? No way.
 
timwinters said:
I was once overtaken by a baron on a cross county. I was on FF and he was IFR. He passed 500' directly under me, same heading. I decided to test my eyes (I have 20/20 vision) and determine how far away I could see an airplane. It was a slow day on the radio and I warned center of my plan. They agreed to play along. When I could no longer see the baron, I called center and asked the distance...


...three miles. Admittedly, the "visual target" presented by a plane flying directly away from you at the same altitude is smallest possible. But, still, I knew where it was!
Click to expand...

At 3 nautical miles, one "pixel" (one cone) of your vision is about 2-3 feet (if I did the math correctly) so the Baron would be about 2 pixels tall at best.

https://web.stanford.edu/class/ee368b/Handouts/09-HumanPerception.pdf
 
RussR said:
That exactly matches my experience. I was following a friend in his airplane. He took off before me and so had a slight lead, but I had about 5 knots on him, so a very slow closure rate.
Click to expand...

ATC: Have your wingman stop his squawk.
Pilot: I don’t have a wingman.
ATC: In that case, you have traffic.

:)
 
Velocity173 said:
His engine doesn’t even have to fail. All that’s required is declaring an emergency. Engine roughness may or may not be an emergency. Sounds to me that the pilot wasn’t an emergency. If they were, they would’ve requested the nearest airfield. If they’re not, they have no business going to DM.
Click to expand...
The wording is "an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action." If the pilot were to claim that his rough engine fit that description, then he would need to explain why he didn't divert to the closer (civilian) fields when he first became aware of the problem. The reg goes on to specify that the authority to deviate from the rules applies "to the extent required to meet that emergency," and personally, I wouldn't regard flying AWAY FROM suitable fields as consistent with that part of the rule. So I agree with you that since the pilot apparently wasn't treating it as an emergency, it would be hard for him to justify suddenly treating the rough engine by itself as an emergency when he got near the Air Force base.

The scenario I was talking about was if the rough engine happened to actually quit producing power when he got within gliding distance of the base. There would be no question at that point that an emergency existed. (The reg doesn't say anything about declaring the emergency, although it would be stupid not to.)

§91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command....

...(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.​
 
Timbeck2 said:
Not my point at all. :sigh:
Click to expand...
It sounded like you were saying that your superiors would question your decision to clear an emergency aircraft to land. I'm just pointing out that if it was a bona fide emergency, and if landing at your field was truly necessary in order to deal with that emergency, then under the regulations that apply to the pilot, he would not even need a landing clearance.

Whether that would get you off the hook with your superiors, I have no idea. :dunno:

P.S. I'm no legal expert; I'm just reading the regulations as written.
 
Salty said:
Yeah, I had a controller that called out a mooney passing me the opposite direction 10 miles away at closest point every 30 seconds and sounded annoyed that I never saw it.
Click to expand...

Was flying near Midland Odessa on my way to a HS basketball game with my son when ATC came on and said," Traffic 12:00 opposite direction, stop descent, 500 lower and 10 miles, get your camera out" ... it was Fifi the super fortress and I could already see her (although I didn't know it was Fifi at the time ...) appreciated that heads up.
 
Palmpilot said:
The wording is "an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action." If the pilot were to claim that his rough engine fit that description, then he would need to explain why he didn't divert to the closer (civilian) fields when he first became aware of the problem. The reg goes on to specify that the authority to deviate from the rules applies "to the extent required to meet that emergency," and personally, I wouldn't regard flying AWAY FROM suitable fields as consistent with that part of the rule. So I agree with you that since the pilot apparently wasn't treating it as an emergency, it would be hard for him to justify suddenly treating the rough engine by itself as an emergency when he got near the Air Force base.

The scenario I was talking about was if the rough engine happened to actually quit producing power when he got within gliding distance of the base. There would be no question at that point that an emergency existed. (The reg doesn't say anything about declaring the emergency, although it would be stupid not to.)

§91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command....

...(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.​
Click to expand...

Yeah that’s a no brainer. The pilot has no other choice. I’m saying, the pilot doesn’t even need the 91.3 authority. I’d be willing to bet that the AF uses the same policy that we used in Navy / Marines.

6400C5B8-610F-4FCB-8788-EB9729201D29.jpeg
Tim’s problem here would be a situation where the pilot may not have declared an emergency but yet Tim handles it as such and allows the landing. He might have some explaining to do why he thought to authorize a landing past suitable civilian fields in order to violate security protocols and land at DM. Puts Tim in a bad spot.
 
danhagan said:
Was flying near Midland Odessa on my way to a HS basketball game with my son when ATC came on and said," Traffic 12:00 opposite direction, stop descent, 500 lower and 10 miles, get your camera out" ... it was Fifi the super fortress and I could already see her (although I didn't know it was Fifi at the time ...) appreciated that heads up.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of the time that I flew up to Napa (APC) to see Fifi. After taking a tour of it, I was doing taxibacks around the time it was scheduled to take off. I happened to be in the runup area when Fifi took the runway and took some time before taking off (for preflight checks, I presume). Tower asked if I'd like to switch to the other runway to continue my pattern work rather than waiting. I answered that I would like to "stay here and watch the show." :)
 
Palmpilot said:
It sounded like you were saying that your superiors would question your decision to clear an emergency aircraft to land. I'm just pointing out that if it was a bona fide emergency, and if landing at your field was truly necessary in order to deal with that emergency, then under the regulations that apply to the pilot, he would not even need a landing clearance.
Click to expand...
The OP's point is readily apparent from looking at a chart. The 152 was two miles from Marana (AVQ), a good full-service GA facility, and four miles from Pinal (MZJ) -- both with runways nearly 7,000' long. Instead of heading there or one of the other nearby GA airports, he was making noises about going into an active military base (DMA) or a busy airline terminal (TUS) much further away.

KTUS2.jpg
 
Last edited:
danhagan said:
Was flying near Midland Odessa on my way to a HS basketball game with my son when ATC came on and said," Traffic 12:00 opposite direction, stop descent, 500 lower and 10 miles, get your camera out" ... it was Fifi the super fortress and I could already see her (although I didn't know it was Fifi at the time ...) appreciated that heads up.
Click to expand...

That is an awesome day and controller.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top