Helping yourself to fuel.

[forsonsinc]

Did I read that correct?
The accident report said he had a fuel stopped flight planned and skipped it?

 

[weilke]

Did I read that correct?
The accident report said he had a fuel stopped flight planned and skipped it?

The reason I posted it was that he stole 5 gallons, left money for 5 gallons, but 21 gallons were missing.

 

[smv]

Years ago nobody would have even thought twice about helping someone like this. It would have been automatic. Today, many people seem to want to crucify the "fuel buyer" without ever even knowing the full story. I would hope that if someone "borrowed/bought" fuel out of my plane, I would be glad to have been able to help them out. The fact that he paid double for fuel tells me that he felt a little bad for what he thought he had to do in his circumstance, whatever it was. He could have just stolen the fuel after all. There was a time when we looked to help out our fellow man. Not so much anymore, I guess. When my wife and I were coming home from the Bahama's in our Cherokee, on our second to last leg, we had much stronger than forecast headwinds, and I didn't think i could get to my intended final fuel stop. I made the decision to stop short at an airport that had self serve fuel in Northeast Louisiana. It was late on a Sunday afternoon, the weekend after Thanksgiving. It had been a long and trip, we were both a tired, and we were trying to get home before a massive cold front arrived in Kansas. The problem was that when we landed and taxied to the pump, there was a note on the cardtrol that said that the credit card reader was not working, and only the local smart card reader was allowing for fuel to be dispensed. I didn't know what to do. About that time, a local came up to confirm that the credit card reader did not work. I asked him if he had a smart card. He informed me that he did. I asked if I could buy a few gallons of gas to get me to the next airport, however, all I had to pay him with was a check. He declined. My wife and I were not angry at him, just very disappointed and very very sad. I lost a lot of faith in humanity that day. He was so worried that a 30 dollar check was going to bounce I guess, and to him, helping a fellow pilot out in his time of need was just not worth the risk. When all we can think about is ourselves, we all die a little. In today's world, I guess the Golden Rule no longer applies.

You are talking about a different situation and a completely different culture. There are still communities in this country where is is commonly accepted by all that borrowing a neighbor's stuff without specific case-by-case permission is completely acceptable and an expected two-way street.

What happened here is not that utopia. The fuel thief was not a known entity, was not part of a tight-knit community, and had no prior implied permission to help themselves to the fuel.

 

[Flying Doc]

Taking fuel from an aircraft is a huge risk to life and property, on top of tampering with someone's airplane which is illegal. There are many bad scenarios. Say the note falls off and is not seen and I just had my Saratoga topped off with 107 gallons for a long flight the next day.... it would be easy to overlook if someone took 10 gallons from each tank(Thats 1.2 hours less airtime). The wing gauge only reads to 35 gallons beyond that it reads full and we all know onboard gauges are useless.
I would have called authorities and found the tail number of the aircraft taking off around the time of the incident and reported the individual. If it was an emergency then he/she can explain themselves. Alternatively this individual may be developing a bad habit, that may either cost them their life(bad fuel management) or some fellow pilot that runs out of fuel. While I think sharing fuel with someone in an emergency is the right thing to do, I think that individual taking the gas without permission is selfish and needs to be called out. He could have stayed overnight somewhere and got gas in the morning from someone instead he could have ruined someone elses planned trip or caused someone harm.

 

[weilke]

To me there is a difference between borrowing your neighbors leaf-rake or wheelbarrow vs. siphoning fuel from some strangers plane.

 

[EdFred]

What my takeaway here is people don't pre-flight their airplanes and have ****ty instrumentation.

 

[WDD]

Seems there were other options that he could have spent some effort to come up with. Why didn't the guy just call the airport manager to arrange for someone to come out and provide fuel? Why not just put a note on the windshield of the donor plane asking for help?

This was not a matter of life or death. It was a matter of extreme inconvenience perhaps.

Having money and over paying doesn't change the fact that you don't have a right to do take something from someone else without their permission.

 

[EdFred]

Seems there were other options that he could have spent some effort to come up with. Why didn't the guy just call the airport manager to arrange for someone to come out and provide fuel? Why not just put a note on the windshield of the donor plane asking for help?

This was not a matter of life or death. It was a matter of extreme inconvenience perhaps.

Having money and over paying doesn't change the fact that you don't have a right to do take something from someone else without their permission.

There's nothing I own that someone couldn't take and pay me double what the replacement cost is. Bike, plane, house, truck, fuel, you can have whatever you want without asking if you're paying double.

 

[WDD]

There's nothing I own that someone couldn't take and pay me double what the replacement cost is. Bike, plane, house, truck, fuel, you can have whatever you want without asking if you're paying double.

And you have that right to choose that for your things.

No one has the right to make another person do the same as you.

 

[Bob Noel]

There's nothing I own that someone couldn't take and pay me double what the replacement cost is. Bike, plane, house, truck, fuel, you can have whatever you want without asking if you're paying double.

unlike you, I have some things that are irreplaceable.

 

[EdFred]

unlike you, I have some things that are irreplaceable.

Yeah, I don't emotionally attach myself to anything material that could be lost/stolen/consumed in a house fire, etc... Just causes stress to think about a possibility of losing it.
Already had the house fire.

I also didn't realize fuel has such sentimental value to people.

 

[Kansas Flyer]

If you ask for help or if I happen to notice that you could use a hand I would be more than happy to do whatever I could for you, but I have a problem with someone just helping themselves whether they paid or not. If you take it from my airplane I hope your engine can run on mogas.

I can't say that there's absolutely no scenario where someone taking fuel wouldn't be considered the reasonable thing to do, but I think those situations are few and far between.

 

[MuseChaser]

The issue is very likely regional. I used to live in a very, VERY small farming community town. NOBODY locked their homes, garages, or vehicles, and it was understood and quite common to just help yourself to a neighbor's tool, compressor, generator, or even vehicle if needed. My wife got our van stuck in a ditch with our kids in it in the middle of a frigid February bad snow storm, and my neighbor wasn't home (he had a huge Silverado 4x4) so I took his truck and went and got them out of the ditch and home safely, then filled up his tank before putting the truck back in his garage. He was very angry with me.... because I had filled up his tank.That's just the way we all lived up there... we all helped each other out, no questions asked nor compensation or thanks expected. An airport I used to be based at operated pretty much the same way...tools were borrowed from other's hangars, fluids, even swappable parts and seats. If someone is used to that environment, typical in very rural areas, if they got in a pinch as the gas-siphoning fellow in the original post did, I can see how they might not realize that there are lots of people in the world who DON'T live that way and who might be very upset with his actions.
Personally, I'd be fine if someone did that. People have. My CFI, in fact, has borrowed seats from my airplane, and even had the field A&P remove my prop so he could borrow my spinner bulkhead when his cracked so he could continue instructing and making a living, all without asking me first. If a stranger had done that, I of course would have been completely peeved, but it's a continuum. Siphoning a few gallons of gas and paying double for it... well, let's just say in my mind there are a LOT more reasons to bunch undies than that.

 

[EdFred]

I can't say that there's absolutely no scenario where someone taking fuel wouldn't be considered the reasonable thing to do, but I think those situations are few and far between.

Not that few or far. Could easily be an Angel Flight/Compassion Flight, or flying something that's temp/time sensitive. It's not like those are rare occurrences. I've been in BFE America where it's listed as SS fuel, except there's locks on the fuel pump and no phone available with a note saying be back in 3 hours.

 

[NoBShere]

Since we don't have all sides of the story, I would need to understand the "urgency" of the pilot as well as their background. And I do lean towards removing fuel from someone's plane carries a significant weight to it that is greater than borrowing a snowblower from a neighbor while they are on vacation, for example. The background is relevant in my opinion for the reasons others have stated, what may be "normal" in one region is not acceptable in another. Doesn't make anything wrong per se but, I do believe "when in rome" applies both ways.

 

[NordicDave]

Touching ANYONE else's fuel system without explicit permission is abhorrent. I would not trust the remaining fuel in the tank, and be stuck on what to do next if I was overnight somewhere depending on quality fuel. Those of us who fly over the tall rocks, don't appreciate any sputtering or dirt introduced to our fuel system.

If I saw a clean siphon hose, and could spare the fuel I'm more inclined to help while supervising.

Golden rule, don't touch other people's airplanes.

 

[Salty]

No matter what you think, I think this is an awesome ethics case study. The comments have been very interesting.

Now to my opinion. Using only my phone and free websites, I looked up a random N number that just went by and googling the name and address from the Faa website, found the cell and home phone number of the owner in less than 5 minutes. Will it be a difficult conversation, and is there a real good chance they'd say no? Yeah. But if you're not a thief, you'd do this.

 

[danhagan]

If I have half tanks of fuel or more you can take it and pay no problem. I guess we see things differently in the rural Mountain West where helping out someone is considered something you just do as an moral obligation.

I'm in the mountain west and do not want some ham fisted dimwit that can't figure out he is too close to fuel exhaustion and flight plans poorly to mess with my plane.

 

[EdFred]

I'm in the mountain west and do not want some ham fisted dimwit that can't figure out he is too close to fuel exhaustion and flight plans poorly to mess with my plane.

Because winds are always exactly as forecast, fuel burn never varies, another airport with fuel is always 10 minutes away, someone is always at the airport when they say they will be, and sump drains are an extremely complex mechanism.

I guess no one should ever land anywhere without at least 3.5 hours of fuel remaining.

 

[Flying Doc]

IMHO, there are 2 parts to this discussion:
1. Safety. This individual no matter the reason, diminished the fuel supply of an aircraft reducing its range. The safety of that plane/passengers/pilot is compromised as someone essentially tampered with the fuel. Again if the note falls off the pilot might just miss the fact that some fuel is gone..esp if there is no reason to believe it was tampered. I get it that a good preflight should catch it...but if it didnt..well accidents are an additive phenom.
2. Theft: This is theft. Plain and simple. No one (I dont know well) has to right to take my stuff without my permission. Not in East Detroit nor in rural Wyoming. There are laws against that. Even if they decide to pay me for it at whatever THEY determine to be the "right" price. TThat gas could easily cost much more than 2x if the aircraft now has to be flown somewhere else for fuel and you factor the pilot's wasted time/money and plane use.

LOL not sure why I am getting worked up over this, but this story if its true makes me happy I keep her in a hangar.

 

[Unkljohn]

I’ve got no problem helping someone out of a tight spot. In fact I would be happy to help, but taking fuel out of my plane is way over the line.

 

[DFH65]

The issue is very likely regional. I used to live in a very, VERY small farming community town. NOBODY locked their homes, garages, or vehicles, and it was understood and quite common to just help yourself to a neighbor's tool, compressor, generator, or even vehicle if needed. My wife got our van stuck in a ditch with our kids in it in the middle of a frigid February bad snow storm, and my neighbor wasn't home (he had a huge Silverado 4x4) so I took his truck and went and got them out of the ditch and home safely, then filled up his tank before putting the truck back in his garage. He was very angry with me.... because I had filled up his tank.That's just the way we all lived up there... we all helped each other out, no questions asked nor compensation or thanks expected. An airport I used to be based at operated pretty much the same way...tools were borrowed from other's hangars, fluids, even swappable parts and seats. If someone is used to that environment, typical in very rural areas, if they got in a pinch as the gas-siphoning fellow in the original post did, I can see how they might not realize that there are lots of people in the world who DON'T live that way and who might be very upset with his actions.
Personally, I'd be fine if someone did that. People have. My CFI, in fact, has borrowed seats from my airplane, and even had the field A&P remove my prop so he could borrow my spinner bulkhead when his cracked so he could continue instructing and making a living, all without asking me first. If a stranger had done that, I of course would have been completely peeved, but it's a continuum. Siphoning a few gallons of gas and paying double for it... well, let's just say in my mind there are a LOT more reasons to bunch undies than that.

I still live in that town but I have to admit if someone I didn't know touched my plane without asking especially removing fuel I would be VERY upset. We fill the plane to the same point every time we use it (not full for W&B) before parking it in the hanger. I sump the fuel and check the gauges but don't dip the tanks every flight. We are in a hanger but it is relatively accessible.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yeah, I don't emotionally attach myself to anything material that could be lost/stolen/consumed in a house fire, etc... Just causes stress to think about a possibility of losing it.
Already had the house fire.

I also didn't realize fuel has such sentimental value to people.

I never fully understood that you were the kind of person to degrade others because they have a different moral index than you do. Honestly I’ve lost some respect for you.

 

[3393RP]

Yep. And correct to within half a gallon spread out over 4 tanks. (MVP 50) Funny reading the hysterics in the thread though.

After reading three pages of those hysterics, I must agree.

 

[MBDiagMan]

No it's not theft because your loss was more than compensated. Maybe if you are stranded somewhere and desperately need help and everybody says says "not my problem" you would learn a lesson. Does anybody think a jury would punish that person?

Technically you are probably correct, but just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. Unauthorized tampering with someone’s aircraft is just not respectful. I promise that barring a life and death emergency I would never touch someone else’s aircraft. There are things that could go wrong that could result in a catastrophic outcome.

I won’t be touching your airplane without your permission. Please return that respect.

To be clear though. For anyone in need of help at my airport, most any of us will go to all lengths to help a fellow aviator. All you have to do is ask and we will take care of you at all possible. It would be nice if everyone paid u equal respect.

Six months or a year ago, someone weathered down at our airport who turned out to be a frequent poster here was facing a tough storm. I happened to have a temporarily empty space in my hangar and we put the plane he was ferrying in there for the night. The good news is, most people I’ve met in aviation would do the same for me.

 

[JonH]

Normally I'd say this is a fake story, but it would seem as though our society is going downhill real fast.

 

[MBDiagMan]

What my takeaway here is people don't pre-flight their airplanes and have ****ty instrumentation.

I have a JPI and fuel level sensors that give me extremely high confidence about how much fuel is on board. I also am probably more obsessed with a thorough preflight than most anyone you know. That probably is linked to my opinion that anyone touching my aircraft without my specific permission is being disrespectful, and even might be determined illegal if enough time were spent studying the FAR’s. The safety of myself and more importantly my family and friends, is massively more important to me than a few extra fuel dollars.

Additionally, even though it should be obvious, the removal of fuel is no the worst of this situation. Touching another persons aircraft without their permission or knowledge is much more important than the loss of fuel.

 

[EdFred]

I never fully understood that you were the kind of person to degrade others because they have a different moral index than you do. Honestly I’ve lost some respect for you.

My comment was simply a statement that I don't attach sentimental value to anything that I have. I wasn't the one that led off with the degrading "unlike you...[ implied superiority ]..."

Also this whole thing, it's a freaking plane. It is some metal and some rubber and some rivets and some cables. But some of the responses you swear that you raped their daughter.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

My comment was simply a statement that I don't attach sentimental value to anything that I have. I wasn't the one that led off with the degrading "unlike you...[ implied superiority ]..."

Also this whole thing, it's a freaking plane. It is some metal and some rubber and some rivets and some cables. But some of the responses you swear that you raped their daughter.

Your plane isn't valuable to you because it's a low wing. If you had a high wing you'd feel very differently

 

[MBDiagMan]

I wouldn’t have felt that my daughter had been raped, but it would have indeed been an indication of extreme lack of respect. This is an airplane. Things can happen that can result in catastrophe. Please don’t ever tamper with my plane without my knowledge and preferably my permission.

 

[EdFred]

I wouldn’t have felt that my daughter had been raped, but it would have indeed been an indication of extreme lack of respect. This is an airplane. Things can happen that can result in catastrophe. Please don’t ever tamper with my plane without my knowledge and preferably my permission.

I don't consider putting a bucket under your drain and sumping out fuel tampering with an airplane. Taking some scat tubing out of the engine cowl or taking a fuel cap or taking a spark plug, something like that I would consider tampering. We obviously have different definitions of tampering.

 

[EdFred]

Your plane isn't valuable to you because it's a low wing. If you had a high wing you'd feel very differently

Yeah I'd probably tell someone to take it so I can collect on the insurance and get a low wing replacement.

 

[NordicDave]

I don't consider putting a bucket under your drain and sumping out fuel tampering with an airplane...

The police call it theft.

Touching anything on my aircraft is tampering with it. If I caught someone fiddling with my planes sumps, Hope He ais dental plan.

 

[3393RP]

Yeah I'd probably tell someone to take it so I can collect on the insurance and get a low wing replacement.

You should, it's been a long time since a member pulled an insurance job. It'll give us something else to pontificate about.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

My comment was simply a statement that I don't attach sentimental value to anything that I have. I wasn't the one that led off with the degrading "unlike you...[ implied superiority ]..."

Also this whole thing, it's a freaking plane. It is some metal and some rubber and some rivets and some cables. But some of the responses you swear that you raped their daughter.

to be clear. I’m referencing multiple statements you’ve made in this thread. Not just the one I quoted. You go be you dude. You don’t want to recognize the serious loss of operational control that comes from a stranger mucking with your fuel load and fuel system that’s your business but it is not a proper or justified correlation to claim my desire to ensure my safety of flight translates to be a selfish inconsiderate sub human as you have asserted.

I am willing and have in fact gone out of the way and significantly inconvenienced myself in the past to help others. Don’t make the mistake of messing with my airplane without authorization.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I don't consider putting a bucket under your drain and sumping out fuel tampering with an airplane. Taking some scat tubing out of the engine cowl or taking a fuel cap or taking a spark plug, something like that I would consider tampering. We obviously have different definitions of tampering.

You don’t have the authority to decide what constitutes tampering on my airplane. You can decide that for your ride not someone else’s.

One of the basic principles of our country is the right of the individual to own and maintain private property. Your attitude on this is an affront to that most basic concept of ownership. To make it worse it’s not like you’re rattling on about borrowing a tool you’re messing with an airplane. What if that note you leave doesn’t get noticed and it results in a negative outcome for the other party.

I do not have the vocabulary to accurately describe just how selfish that guy was for taking the fuel.

It is amazing to me how many people here are defending the actions with anecdotes about borrowing from people they know and have established relationships. This thread is about a total stranger messing with an airplane without authorization in an unknown manner. No one knows how that fuel was removed or how much was actually taken. It’s not ok. If anyone here thinks it is ok and they are looking at messing with a strangers airplane they should stop.

 

[3393RP]

That vein is gonna pop.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

That vein is gonna pop.

You might just be right. The idea that educated and qualified aviators would thinking’s ok to mess with an aircraft of a stranger in any way is just crazy.

I don’t care how many times your neighbor, good buddy or a hangar mate borrowed anything you have. That is a completely different moral construct than the hypothetical one proposed in this thread.

 

[MuseChaser]

I haven't seen this much chest thumping since...well..since ever. Disgusting. Somebody in need grabs a few gallons from a tank, leaves a thank you note and overpays for the gas he took, and some of you hope he has good dental insurance because you're going to bash his teeth in. Seriously? You think a milliliter of whatever inside a mystery siphon hose is going to contaminate a 25 (or more) gallon tank of 100LL to the point it'll being your plane down? You don't preflight carefully enough to notice you're missing a few gallons (assuming you didn't read the note the "unauthorized purchaser" left for you?)?

This is why I like my dogs more than most people. "You touch my stuff, I break your face." Whatever. Life isn't about stuff. Thump away if you need to... But chest thumping really only makes the thumper feel stronger. Nothing else.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I haven't seen this much chest thumping since...well..since ever. Disgusting. Somebody in need grabs a few gallons from a tank, leaves a thank you note and overpays for the gas he took, and some of you hope he has good dental insurance because you're going to bash his teeth in. Seriously? You think a milliliter of whatever inside a mystery siphon hose is going to contaminate a 25 (or more) gallon tank of 100LL to the point it'll being your plane down? You don't preflight carefully enough to notice you're missing a few gallons (assuming you didn't read the note the "unauthorized purchaser" left for you?)?

This is why I like my dogs more than most people. "You touch my stuff, I break your face." Whatever. Life isn't about stuff. Thump away if you need to... But chest thumping really only makes the thumper feel stronger. Nothing else.

I never said I would break anyone’s face. Where are you getting that crap from? In fact I’m a former law enforcement officer. I took and acted on an oath to protect others from harm. You must be referencing someone else’s response.

If you don’t see the moral failure of the gas taker or agree with me that’s fine but remember you do not have the right to decide for me what is ok to take from me. If you’re my friend, neighbor or significant other then the moral equation changes significantly. If you never learned this in life I’m here to tell you it is not ok to mess with others private property without permission. You don’t have to agree in your mind or heart but you are well advised to in your actions.

Edit:


Let me ask you this question. How can you think it’s ok if it results in a crash? Let’s just for the purpose of our little thought exercise run this out.

You acquire fuel from my airplane without authorization and leave a note in the cockpit so it doesn’t get lost.

I show back up at the airport after my lunch and when my kids open up the door while I’m taking a leak the note blows away.

I do a quick walk around sump my tanks, check my oil and roll out.

While flying home I notice my fuel gauges are indicating a little less than normal for the amount of time I’ve flown but I know I left with full tanks, I know how long I’ve flown and I know that no one else has flown the airplane. So I drive on thinking it’s just those crappy fuel gauges.

Short of my destination the engine quits. In the ensuing off airport landing one my kids is critically injured.

Now do I own that screwup. Sure I do. Should I have more accurately determined fuel load before departure: sure. Should I have diverted when there was any doubt about my fuel situation in flight: sure. Did I have multiple opportunities as a PIC to prevent the off airport landing? You are damned right I did.

would any of this have happened if you didn’t take that gas? Probably not.

I am not telling you I don’t preflight. I’m telling you that when you take that gas without the knowledge of the PIC of that aircraft you have no idea how that plays out after you leave.

Don’t touch other people’s airplanes. I’m not thumping my chest. I’m not threatening you. Where are you getting those vibes from? You think every time someone disagrees with you it’s just because we are bullies? What I’m trying to get you to understand is you just never know what the consequences will be when you act the way you’re talking about. The risk is just not worth it and frankly most of the liability is not yours to bear.


second edit:
@Snowmass @MuseChaser
@EdFred


I want you to read my thought experiment above. Do you think it’s reasonable? Do you see how messing with fuel, Unknown to the PIC, can affect decision making? Do you not agree that could potentially contribute to a very negative outcome? Arguing that it’s ok and no one gets harmed assumes a lot of things that I don’t believe it’s reasonable to assume in the context of a situation where the two pilots don’t know each other.

I am not willing to make those assumptions about you. I would never put you in a situation that required you to make decisions in a particular manner to detect and appropriately deal with some action I took. Especially in the context of flight safety. I still can’t wrap my head around your willingness to accept that from someone else or your apparent willingness to do that to someone.