Helping yourself to fuel.

[MuseChaser]

....

Touching anything on my aircraft is tampering with it. If I caught someone fiddling with my planes sumps, Hope He ais dental plan.

I never said I would break anyone’s face. Where are you getting that crap from? ...

From the post I quoted above yours. I understand and agree that known neighbors sharing possessions is different than strangers helping themselves. I, personally, would not feel justified threatening someone with bodily harm for siphoning a few gallons of avgas, leaving a note, and paying for the gas twice over. As a former LEO, wouldn't you agree that assaulting that person would be a more serious crime than the relatively innocent act of the fuel "thief?" I've never been robbed by anyone who left me a note and twice the value of what he " stole" in cash.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

From the post I quoted above yours. I understand and agree that known neighbors sharing possessions is different than strangers helping themselves. I, personally, would not feel justified threatening someone with bodily harm for siphoning a few gallons of avgas, leaving a note, and paying for the gas twice over. As a former LEO, wouldn't you agree that assaulting that person would be a more serious crime than the relatively innocent act of the fuel "thief?" I've never been robbed by anyone who left me a note and twice the value of what he " stole" in cash.

As a former law enforcement officer I can tell you if I responded to the airport you both would be arrested. Deciding who’s crime was more or less significant would be up to the folks dealing with the cases after you were arrested. Leaving money for the fuel does not make the act legal.

 

[Kritchlow]

Did not read all responses. But, taking fuel from another airplane (even though oId) is okay???? What if that guy needed the fuel to get to destination the next day? Now he needs to stop and refuel??

There are some *ediots+* that I will never understand. Than again, I’m already on that jerks list.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

I think I'm going to leave a note like this along with some money WITHOUT taking any fuel just to mind-**** with some people that overreact.

Although it is funny that you feel that you can mess with another person’s airplane, but we can’t ask you to wear a mask. So is it ok to cause another person a slight hardship for the greater good, or not? Seems that you are a bit hypocritical.

 

[Salty]

Although it is funny that you feel that you can mess with another person’s airplane, but we can’t ask you to wear a mask. So is it ok to cause another person a slight hardship for the greater good, or not? Seems that you are a bit hypocritical.

Labored attempts at metaphors (especially when they make no sense) don’t help your point.

 

[EdFred]

I never said I would break anyone’s face. Where are you getting that crap from? In fact I’m a former law enforcement officer. I took and acted on an oath to protect others from harm. You must be referencing someone else’s response.

If you don’t see the moral failure of the gas taker or agree with me that’s fine but remember you do not have the right to decide for me what is ok to take from me. If you’re my friend, neighbor or significant other then the moral equation changes significantly. If you never learned this in life I’m here to tell you it is not ok to mess with others private property without permission. You don’t have to agree in your mind or heart but you are well advised to in your actions.

Edit:


Let me ask you this question. How can you think it’s ok if it results in a crash? Let’s just for the purpose of our little thought exercise run this out.

You acquire fuel from my airplane without authorization and leave a note in the cockpit so it doesn’t get lost.

I show back up at the airport after my lunch and when my kids open up the door while I’m taking a leak the note blows away.

I do a quick walk around sump my tanks, check my oil and roll out.

While flying home I notice my fuel gauges are indicating a little less than normal for the amount of time I’ve flown but I know I left with full tanks, I know how long I’ve flown and I know that no one else has flown the airplane. So I drive on thinking it’s just those crappy fuel gauges.

Short of my destination the engine quits. In the ensuing off airport landing one my kids is critically injured.

Now do I own that screwup. Sure I do. Should I have more accurately determined fuel load before departure: sure. Should I have diverted when there was any doubt about my fuel situation in flight: sure. Did I have multiple opportunities as a PIC to prevent the off airport landing? You are damned right I did.

would any of this have happened if you didn’t take that gas? Probably not.

I am not telling you I don’t preflight. I’m telling you that when you take that gas without the knowledge of the PIC of that aircraft you have no idea how that plays out after you leave.

Don’t touch other people’s airplanes. I’m not thumping my chest. I’m not threatening you. Where are you getting those vibes from? You think every time someone disagrees with you it’s just because we are bullies? What I’m trying to get you to understand is you just never know what the consequences will be when you act the way you’re talking about. The risk is just not worth it and frankly most of the liability is not yours to bear.


second edit:
@Snowmass @MuseChaser
@EdFred


I want you to read my thought experiment above. Do you think it’s reasonable? Do you see how messing with fuel, Unknown to the PIC, can affect decision making? Do you not agree that could potentially contribute to a very negative outcome? Arguing that it’s ok and no one gets harmed assumes a lot of things that I don’t believe it’s reasonable to assume in the context of a situation where the two pilots don’t know each other.

I am not willing to make those assumptions about you. I would never put you in a situation that required you to make decisions in a particular manner to detect and appropriately deal with some action I took. Especially in the context of flight safety. I still can’t wrap my head around your willingness to accept that from someone else or your apparent willingness to do that to someone.

What if the other person was in a emergency situation where that purchasing/borrowing was or could have been life or death? I'm not talkin the opening scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark but maybe the person is flying a kidney for a transplant, or maybe they're flying plasma, or maybe they had a patient on board for a Lifeline flight or maybe they got a phone call that their wife or kid was in an accident and might not make it and they could not wait around for the airport manager to get back in 12 hours to open up the fuel pumps and they don't get see them before their loved one died.

I suppose you'd rather them just sit there and then you can show up to your airplane and see the spoiled kidney or come across somebody who is broken down in tears and when you ask them what's wrong they say well I would have borrowed some fuel and left a note but I read this thread on pilotsofamerica...

Of course the guy that took the fuel might have just been a butthole. I'm not saying I would ever take fuel without exhausting other possibilities, but the reason for why it might be gone might be a little more justifiable. I mean say you live in town and you have metered water and someone grabs the hose to your house helps themselves to 5 gallons and leaves money. Is that as much an affront as taking fuel?

And no it wasn't you that made threats but somebody did. Although I'd love to see whoever it is try something with me.

 

[Bob Noel]

poor planning doesn't constitute an emergency.

As much as some might imagine it, there simply isn't any such thing as an emergency take-off.

 

[EdFred]

poor planning doesn't constitute an emergency.

As much as some might imagine it, there simply isn't any such thing as an emergency take-off.

So every flight you've ever had has gone 100% to the minute exactly as you planned it? Never no changes you are down to the exact tenth on the fuel burn... that's some damn good planning.

So a person is doing a medical flight and they plan to land at some airport for fuel. That airport is regularly attended and is not a credit card reading airport the manager has to be there. The pilot talks to the manager on the phone before doing the flight and ask the manager if he will be there so he can refuel and be on his way. The manager says yes I will be there until x time. Pilot takes off with is plenty of fuel, headwinds are not as forecast. In the meantime while he would still make it there in plenty of time before the manager left, manager gets an emergency call and has to leave because his wife ends up in the hospital . The only person the pilot ever talked to was manager so nobody else at the airport knows what's going on and nobody's around and the pumps are locked up. He had plenty of fuelreserves to get to this Airport but now that the winds have picked up does not look like he can make it to the next airport safely or legally to the next one with fuel without 10 gallons.

He also happens to have T-Mobile which has zero service in this rural airport area while they're on the ground his passenger starts to look worse and it changes from a Lifeline flight to a Lifeguard Flight if he doesn't get going in the next hour or two. His cell phone service doesn't connect at all so he can't even make a phone call to 911. There's a plane sitting out on the ramp with some some fuel in it...

Now while these three things have not happened to me all on one flight all three of these things have happened to me on separate flights and two of the three have happened on one flight. Let me guess he planned poorly because he didn't get a satellite phone and he planned poorly because the managers wife had an accident and he planned poorly because...

 

[Tarheelpilot]

What if the other person was in a emergency situation where that purchasing/borrowing was or could have been life or death? I'm not talkin the opening scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark but maybe the person is flying a kidney for a transplant, or maybe they're flying plasma, or maybe they had a patient on board for a Lifeline flight or maybe they got a phone call that their wife or kid was in an accident and might not make it and they could not wait around for the airport manager to get back in 12 hours to open up the fuel pumps and they don't get see them before their loved one died.

I suppose you'd rather them just sit there and then you can show up to your airplane and see the spoiled kidney or come across somebody who is broken down in tears and when you ask them what's wrong they say well I would have borrowed some fuel and left a note but I read this thread on pilotsofamerica...

Of course the guy that took the fuel might have just been a butthole. I'm not saying I would ever take fuel without exhausting other possibilities, but the reason for why it might be gone might be a little more justifiable. I mean say you live in town and you have metered water and someone grabs the hose to your house helps themselves to 5 gallons and leaves money. Is that as much an affront as taking fuel?

And no it wasn't you that made threats but somebody did. Although I'd love to see whoever it is try something with me.

If it’s life or death? Well then it becomes a different choice? How do , I, as a person taking decide which one is morally right? What if my choice to take the fuel saves the kidney transplant patient but kills a family of four. Did I make the right choice? You tell me. That’s a real life reasonable outcome to taking fuel from someone’s airplane.

In regards to seeing someone before death... It’s funny that you bring up this hypothetical scenario. In 1999 I actually had to make this exact choice. I was a young CFI and my brother, PPL rated, were a 4 hour flight in a Cessna or 10 hour drive away from a father in ICU after a traumatic bicycle accident. The weather was very questionable. We were both under a lot of stress. One of the unknowns was fuel. The route covered some places with unreliable data on fuel availability late at night. We drove. Do you think there is any possibility that being willing to get creative in finding fuel may have influenced that decision? Anyone flying under those circumstances is at a high risk of poor decision making and just might do something dumb like taking gas from a stranger and risking the strangers life because they perceive their immediate need as a greater moral value.

you see the underlying issue in any scenario you propose is this: Is my immediate need more morally valuable than the lives I may be risking. Is it ok for me to make that choice in a vacuum for another person? That is the underlying question you are working so hard to avoid. It has absolutely nothing to do with the monetary value of fuel or emotional attachment to material possessions. It’s about just who the F are you to think it’s ok to make decisions that impact someone else just because you think your immediate need is that important. It’s selfish beyond words.

Taking five gallons of water out of a water hose in town is a straw man argument.

It’s nice of you to acknowledge I was not threatening you while simultaneously puffing out your chest and challenging anyone to question your actions. Classy

 

[danhagan]

Because winds are always exactly as forecast, fuel burn never varies, another airport with fuel is always 10 minutes away, someone is always at the airport when they say they will be, and sump drains are an extremely complex mechanism.

I guess no one should ever land anywhere without at least 3.5 hours of fuel remaining.

Winds in my area of the USA are NEVER as forecast ... I've had 50 knot headwinds at all levels that were supposed to be 10. I haven't siphoned off another AC in 900 hours of flying, and at least 100 of those are long night XC. Poor flight planning on your part doesn't give you the right to steal my fuel, and yes it is stealing as I don't want you touching the plane, or acting like "my bad brah, here's a little extra cash for the fuel I pilfered without your permission."

If your poor in flight fuel management led to a mistake that requires you to steal fuel, maybe you should fly commercial instead.

 

[Daniel Katz]

I'd be a little torn on this. On the one hand, I've seen someone land first hand expecting fuel, only to find there isn't, and they don't have enough to get to the next nearest airport and the desperation that causes.

On the other hand, that seems like a planning problem. Didn't verify fuel available at their stop. Didn't have enough reserve to make it anywhere else. If the airport doesn't have fuel, that leaves you now in the bind without fuel in your plane, so just shifted the problem.

Same here. My only issue is taking instead of giving. If I were at the airport and you asked, hell yeah, I'd help and ask nothing more than the actual cost (not double). However, just taking.... nah, I think that's a bad idea.

 

[EdFred]

If it’s life or death? Well then it becomes a different choice? How do , I, as a person taking decide which one is morally right? What if my choice to take the fuel saves the kidney transplant patient but kills a family of four. Did I make the right choice? You tell me. That’s a real life reasonable outcome to taking fuel from someone’s airplane.

In regards to seeing someone before death... It’s funny that you bring up this hypothetical scenario. In 1999 I actually had to make this exact choice. I was a young CFI and my brother, PPL rated, were a 4 hour flight in a Cessna or 10 hour drive away from a father in ICU after a traumatic bicycle accident. The weather was very questionable. We were both under a lot of stress. One of the unknowns was fuel. The route covered some places with unreliable data on fuel availability late at night. We drove. Do you think there is any possibility that being willing to get creative in finding fuel may have influenced that decision? Anyone flying under those circumstances is at a high risk of poor decision making and just might do something dumb like taking gas from a stranger and risking the strangers life because they perceive their immediate need as a greater moral value.

you see the underlying issue in any scenario you propose is this: Is my immediate need more morally valuable than the lives I may be risking. Is it ok for me to make that choice in a vacuum for another person? That is the underlying question you are working so hard to avoid. It has absolutely nothing to do with the monetary value of fuel or emotional attachment to material possessions. It’s about just who the F are you to think it’s ok to make decisions that impact someone else just because you think your immediate need is that important. It’s selfish beyond words.

Taking five gallons of water out of a water hose in town is a straw man argument.

It’s nice of you to acknowledge I was not threatening you while simultaneously puffing out your chest and challenging anyone to question your actions. Classy

See, I differentiate the lack someone else performing a fuel level preflight as putting me at fault. It would also be no different than if you had a new few leak (Just had one that I fixed), or if you were stupid like I was and thought you turned one side to off, but actually turned it to tip, and left the other side on main, and the fuel ran from the tip, through the octopus, and overflowed the main on the other side. This is why I always, always, always, check fuel before a preflight.

As far as the puffing my chest, it was a response to the guy saying I needed a dental plan if I ever did this - which I can't say I ever would. Unless he has 9" and 75lbs of muscle on me, which I doubt considering which percentile I am in, the chest puffing isn't on my end.

 

[EdFred]

Winds in my area of the USA are NEVER as forecast ... I've had 50 knot headwinds at all levels that were supposed to be 10. I haven't siphoned off another AC in 900 hours of flying, and at least 100 of those are long night XC. Poor flight planning on your part doesn't give you the right to steal my fuel, and yes it is stealing as I don't want you touching the plane, or acting like "my bad brah, here's a little extra cash for the fuel I pilfered without your permission."

If your poor in flight fuel management led to a mistake that requires you to steal fuel, maybe you should fly commercial instead.

I haven't either, and I've had the flight that's taken 50% longer than it was supposed to as well. But sometimes things are past our planning (see other scenario in the thread).

Everyone is interpreting this as I condone taking fuel out of pure laziness, where I am saying there MAY be mitigating circumstances that doesn't make the guy the Green River Killer.

 

[Salty]

One time I landed with less fuel than I'd have wanted to take back off with again and realized I didn't have a credit card with me. Fortunately there was someone around willing to swipe their card in trade for an equal amount of cash. But, if they hadn't been around, it would have never occurred to me in a million years (and I think that is the key here) to take fuel out of someone else's aircraft. Maybe if I was in a remote area and my passenger needed medical care.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

See, I differentiate the lack someone else performing a fuel level preflight as putting me at fault. It would also be no different than if you had a new few leak (Just had one that I fixed), or if you were stupid like I was and thought you turned one side to off, but actually turned it to tip, and left the other side on main, and the fuel ran from the tip, through the octopus, and overflowed the main on the other side. This is why I always, always, always, check fuel before a preflight.

As far as the puffing my chest, it was a response to the guy saying I needed a dental plan if I ever did this - which I can't say I ever would. Unless he has 9" and 75lbs of muscle on me, which I doubt considering which percentile I am in, the chest puffing isn't on my end.

Just because you see it that way doesn’t absolve you. Your actions have consequences.


To the chest thumping you once again can call it what you want but you’re just as guilty as @NordicDave

 

[EdFred]

Just because you see it that way doesn’t absolve you. Your actions have consequences.


To the chest thumping you once again can call it what you want but you’re just as guilty as @NordicDave

I'm guilty because I said that person would be in for a surprise? That's a stretch.

If anything and everything I do has consequences, where is the actions that have consequences line drawn? I drove my truck to work today, and I was driving below the speed limit on purpose like I tend to do on my road. Someone followed me who was running late and I wasn't driving as fast as they wanted me to. I turn off, and they decide to run the next red light to make up time and kill someone. Am I now to blame? I mean, I put them in a situation where they had to make a conscious decision to run the red light.

Also this person was advised that there was missing fuel, it wasn't like it was taken and no notice was given. Someone not performing a preflight can not in any circumstances put the blame on someone else.

 

[MuseChaser]

I never said I would break anyone’s face. Where are you getting that crap from? In fact I’m a former law enforcement officer. I took and acted on an oath to protect others from harm. You must be referencing someone else’s response.

If you don’t see the moral failure of the gas taker or agree with me that’s fine but remember you do not have the right to decide for me what is ok to take from me. If you’re my friend, neighbor or significant other then the moral equation changes significantly. If you never learned this in life I’m here to tell you it is not ok to mess with others private property without permission. You don’t have to agree in your mind or heart but you are well advised to in your actions.

Edit:


Let me ask you this question. How can you think it’s ok if it results in a crash? Let’s just for the purpose of our little thought exercise run this out.

You acquire fuel from my airplane without authorization and leave a note in the cockpit so it doesn’t get lost.

I show back up at the airport after my lunch and when my kids open up the door while I’m taking a leak the note blows away.

I do a quick walk around sump my tanks, check my oil and roll out.

While flying home I notice my fuel gauges are indicating a little less than normal for the amount of time I’ve flown but I know I left with full tanks, I know how long I’ve flown and I know that no one else has flown the airplane. So I drive on thinking it’s just those crappy fuel gauges.

Short of my destination the engine quits. In the ensuing off airport landing one my kids is critically injured.

Now do I own that screwup. Sure I do. Should I have more accurately determined fuel load before departure: sure. Should I have diverted when there was any doubt about my fuel situation in flight: sure. Did I have multiple opportunities as a PIC to prevent the off airport landing? You are damned right I did.

would any of this have happened if you didn’t take that gas? Probably not.

I am not telling you I don’t preflight. I’m telling you that when you take that gas without the knowledge of the PIC of that aircraft you have no idea how that plays out after you leave.

Don’t touch other people’s airplanes. I’m not thumping my chest. I’m not threatening you. Where are you getting those vibes from? You think every time someone disagrees with you it’s just because we are bullies? What I’m trying to get you to understand is you just never know what the consequences will be when you act the way you’re talking about. The risk is just not worth it and frankly most of the liability is not yours to bear.


second edit:
@Snowmass @MuseChaser
@EdFred


I want you to read my thought experiment above. Do you think it’s reasonable? Do you see how messing with fuel, Unknown to the PIC, can affect decision making? Do you not agree that could potentially contribute to a very negative outcome? Arguing that it’s ok and no one gets harmed assumes a lot of things that I don’t believe it’s reasonable to assume in the context of a situation where the two pilots don’t know each other.

I am not willing to make those assumptions about you. I would never put you in a situation that required you to make decisions in a particular manner to detect and appropriately deal with some action I took. Especially in the context of flight safety. I still can’t wrap my head around your willingness to accept that from someone else or your apparent willingness to do that to someone.

Since you tagged me, I'll respond although I've already "said my piece" and was going to leave it alone. A couple points...

1. Personally, I wouldn't take fuel or mess with another person's aircraft without their permission. I never said I would, or that it's ok. I said I can understand why someone could do it, and gave an example based on a community in which I lived at one time.

2. My point was aimed at the amount of anger and/or threats of violence at a person who would take fuel. I don't condone the act, but wouldn't verbally or physically assault someone who left me a note and paid for the gas, and I certainly wouldn't involve law enforcement. If I assaulted him, he definitely SHOULD involve law enforcement against me.

3. I read your thought exercise. In my opinion, if we are forced to find places to assign blame for everything that happens in life (we SHOULDNT, and that's where a lot of our current problems arise in society), then the majority of blame in your scenario would rest on your shoulders for not accurately determining how much fuel you had during preflight. If we fly solely based on the expectation that the plane is how we left it, we are not safe pilots, and are not living up to the Wright quote in your sig file.

4. This is probably the most important part of my response. People disagree. You and I disagree on the severity of the "great siphoning caper." That's OK. It doesn't mean that one of us is right or wrong, or one of us is a jerk, or that there is a need for one of us to convince the other that their opinion and interpretation is the only valid one. @Timbeck2 's sig file is one of the better ones, much as I like yours, too.

That's about it.

 

[NordicDave]

...strangers helping themselves. I, personally, would not feel justified threatening someone with bodily harm for siphoning a few gallons of avgas, leaving a note, and paying for the gas twice over. As a former LEO, wouldn't you agree that assaulting that person would be a more serious crime than the relatively innocent act of the fuel "thief?" I've never been robbed by anyone who left me a note and twice the value of what he " stole" in cash.

One of the leading causes of crashes is fuel contamination and fuel exhaustion. People who mess around with someone else's fuel system are illiterately messing with someone's life tampering with their fuel.

Question: Did this guy carry a siphon system with him, or did he take the dirty garden hose from the wash rack?

I'm betting the vest majority of POA members, including myself, will go way out of their way to help a fellow traveler. Ask, don't take, and make alternate arrangements. Don't touch or mess with other people's airplanes without permission.

I stick my tanks 100% of the time, even when the plane is in my hangar. A lot of pilots unfortunately don't.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Since you tagged me, I'll respond although I've already "said my piece" and was going to leave it alone. A couple points...

1. Personally, I wouldn't take fuel or mess with another person's aircraft without their permission. I never said I would, or that it's ok. I said I can understand why someone could do it, and gave an example based on a community in which I lived at one time.

2. My point was aimed at the amount of anger and/or threats of violence at a person who would take fuel. I don't condone the act, but wouldn't verbally or physically assault someone who left me a note and paid for the gas, and I certainly wouldn't involve law enforcement. If I assaulted him, he definitely SHOULD involve law enforcement against me.

3. I read your thought exercise. In my opinion, if we are forced to find places to assign blame for everything that happens in life (we SHOULDNT, and that's where a lot of our current problems arise in society), then the majority of blame in your scenario would rest on your shoulders for not accurately determining how much fuel you had during preflight. If we fly solely based on the expectation that the plane is how we left it, we are not safe pilots, and are not living up to the Wright quote in your sig file.

4. This is probably the most important part of my response. People disagree. You and I disagree on the severity of the "great siphoning caper." That's OK. It doesn't mean that one of us is right or wrong, or one of us is a jerk, or that there is a need for one of us to convince the other that their opinion and interpretation is the only valid one. @Timbeck2 's sig file is one of the better ones, much as I like yours, too.

That's about it.

I agree that any violence is not appropriate in this context.

I agree that “most” of the blame would fall on the PIC in my thought exercise. My question was to be more specific how would you feel if you were the gas buyer and that was the result. Would you as @EdFred has stated feel it wasn’t anything you did because the other pilot sucked or would you be like me and feel some responsibility for the outcome? It’s not a matter of black or white. It’s very much a shade between the two. I have my opinion. I think that @EdFred enjoys being the tough guy on the Internet. I think if this scenario became a reality he would have a hard time maintaining a clear conscience. Just a hunch. He will he along shortly with a picture of his biceps to emphasize how wrong I am.

all of this is academic. Taking the gas without authorization is most likely illegal in most places in the US. I know it is where I live. That alone should deter most honest people and will aid any civil liabilities that need to be assigned after the fact if it’s necessary.

I like @Timbeck2 sig line as well.

 

[NordicDave]

Just because you see it that way doesn’t absolve you. Your actions have consequences.


To the chest thumping you once again can call it what you want but you’re just as guilty as @NordicDave

Chest thumping? Don't steal. Basic respect for others and their property. As pilots we need to watch-out for each other, especially for mischief when exposed on a ramp. Tampering with an aircraft is a federal offense.

 

[Bob Noel]

So every flight you've ever had has gone 100% to the minute exactly as you planned it? Never no changes you are down to the exact tenth on the fuel burn... that's some damn good planning.

good grief. Talk about pulling stuff out of dark places...

 

[EdFred]

good grief. Talk about pulling stuff out of dark places...

I see you conveniently ignored the rest of the post. That tells me all I need to know.

 

[EdFred]

Chest thumping? Don't steal. Basic respect for others and their property. As pilots we need to watch-out for each other, especially for mischief when exposed on a ramp. Tampering with an aircraft is a federal offense.

Looking at the definition of tampering (general and legal), I am not entirely sure that this scenario would necessarily be a case of tampering as no damage would have been caused to the plane and the owner was notified of what was done. Theft may be a fuzzier issue depending on the jurisdiction.

 

[Piper18O]

Taking five gallons of water out of a water hose in town is a straw man argument.

However, I guess it is still theft........

 

[Flying Doc]

Its easy to see why there are still so many GA accidents in an era of improved information, situational awareness and safety. Darn human beings get in the way of things. I am new to this site and I know many are just messing around on here but hell guys.....With attitudes of "It's just an airplane made of rivets", "They just took some gas get over it". This is the kind of attitude that eventually gets one into trouble. What do you tell your buddies when you go flying. "Dont worry Beavis, she is strong made of rivets and metal and can take you... the 4th 200 lb male in the 172. In this case hopefully someone stole all the gas

 

[Flying Doc]

Looking at the definition of tampering (general and legal), I am not entirely sure that this scenario would necessarily be a case of tampering as no damage would have been caused to the plane and the owner was notified of what was done. Theft may be a fuzzier issue depending on the jurisdiction.

If the plane crashes due to fuel exhaustion, and they find the note and the individual. You can betcha there is either gonna be a civil or criminal problem for that individual. May even be federal crime. But yes... this is taking the situation way overboard. LOL in summary someone took some gas, pilot figured it out, no harm done. All is well. However now that I know some of you dont think its wrong...at least I'll lock my hangar and the fuel caps...After adding 1/2 liter of water to the tanks...in case someone wants to borrow via the sump I just need to leave myself a note to drain the water before I go.

 

[WDD]

Taking something without permission, without entering into a contract agreed to by both parties is stealing. Contract can be written of course, or verbal. "Can I have some gas from your plane" is the offer, the reply can be yes or no. A person has the right to be asked and to say no, even if the other person gives money.

There is some old English common law that a business law professor came up with as a loop hole. If the person was truly facing death, he/she might have an out for tampering/stealing/etc. But that's a long shot, only used is a few obscure cases.

Facing staying longer at an airport, getting a hotel room while waiting for gas doesn't fit in.

 

[Dogflyer]

Hello!
Used to be a member, quit because of the sheer mean-spiritness of this group, which this thread so spectacularly embraces!

But like Tony Montana, find myself being drug back in by this discussion.

Here is my input which based on reading 4 pages I think is unique:

In 3100+ hours of flying I have both had gas stolen, and stolen gas.

Had gas stolen: landed at an airport in NH, gassed up, did a job, came back later, found one tank way low. Going crazy looking for a leak. Until the lineman came up and said,"I wouldn't spend too much time looking for a leak. I just put 5 gallons into your tank." Somebody, most likely a racer, had helped himself to 5 gallons. I don't recall being too busted up about it, yeah it cost about $20, but not a big deal. And who DOES NOT check tanks right before takeoff? That is a way to get dead quick.

Stole gas: Flying across country, landed in Arkansas (it is ALWAYS Arkansas!). A duster field , Mad Max kind of place. A dog is trotting around with a human hand in its jaws. That kind of field. Self service pump doesn't technically "work" but it does put out 2 gallons each time the CC is run through, but doesn't charge the CC. What to do? Do it a dozen times until the tanks are full, of course! Resolve to send the field a check and a note to fix their pump.

Until. Later, same trip. Driving further west, in a rental car. Stopped by a state trooper on a pure pretext stop, "following too close". The fellow just wanted to stop me and see if I was trafficking drugs. After it was clear that I was not,he let me go, but not until he mustered levels of rage in me for getting hassled that would be difficult to assuage. Decided an appropriate quid for the trooper's quo was thanking the state of Arkansas for their free tanks of gas. Petty, maybe. But as the saying goes, treat us like criminals and we will oblige.

As a former steal-er and steal-ee, my message is this: Lighten up! Getting a few gallons of gas drained out of a tank is not that big a deal. When the history of the death of GA is written, this thread, and all the mean spiritness and "get off my lawn you damned kids" vibe which it channels, will feature prominently.

 

[NordicDave]

But like Tony Montana, find myself being drug back in by this discussion.

Actually it was Michael Corleone in Godfather 3 who said that.

 

[3393RP]

I liked the post about the 'contaminated garden hose'.

Yeah, because running water will do that.

 

[woodchucker]

Wow what an entertaining thread. I will just say this. If I am ever in a position where the only alternative is pilfering fuel in an emergency situation I would leave my contact info. I think that is the right thing to do if the situation has come to that. At least then if further compensation is warranted due to whatever reason then that can be worked out. Or maybe they just want to meet in the park for a good old fashioned rumble over it. Lol

 

[Kritchlow]

Wow what an entertaining thread. I will just say this. If I am ever in a position where the only alternative is pilfering fuel in an emergency situation I would leave my contact info. I think that is the right thing to do if the situation has come to that. At least then if further compensation is warranted due to whatever reason then that can be worked out. Or maybe they just want to meet in the park for a good old fashioned rumble over it. Lol

Just what might constitute such an emergency?

 

[SkyChaser]

Just what might constitute such an emergency?

Maybe you're chasing a terrorist with a nuclear bomb that you've got to catch before he blows up the whole place.

Or maybe the Mafia's after your passenger.

Or maybe you bet your life savings on finishing a trip in so many days, and it's almost up.

Or maybe you really gotta go, the podunk FBO's closed, you're too "civilized" to make use of a creative alternative, and the next airport's maybe ten minutes and only a few galloons away.

Or maybe you're in rural, no-roads Alaska, with a critically injured passenger, who needs a doctor yesterday, and the fuel pump's broken.

I think what this crazy thread has clearly determined that not everyone's idea of an emergency is the same. To some, all of the above are valid emergencies, while I am sure somone will find good reasons why none are an actual emergency.

 

[Flying Doc]

Hello!
Used to be a member, quit because of the sheer mean-spiritness of this group, which this thread so spectacularly embraces!

But like Tony Montana, find myself being drug back in by this discussion.

Here is my input which based on reading 4 pages I think is unique:

In 3100+ hours of flying I have both had gas stolen, and stolen gas.

Had gas stolen: landed at an airport in NH, gassed up, did a job, came back later, found one tank way low. Going crazy looking for a leak. Until the lineman came up and said,"I wouldn't spend too much time looking for a leak. I just put 5 gallons into your tank." Somebody, most likely a racer, had helped himself to 5 gallons. I don't recall being too busted up about it, yeah it cost about $20, but not a big deal. And who DOES NOT check tanks right before takeoff? That is a way to get dead quick.

Stole gas: Flying across country, landed in Arkansas (it is ALWAYS Arkansas!). A duster field , Mad Max kind of place. A dog is trotting around with a human hand in its jaws. That kind of field. Self service pump doesn't technically "work" but it does put out 2 gallons each time the CC is run through, but doesn't charge the CC. What to do? Do it a dozen times until the tanks are full, of course! Resolve to send the field a check and a note to fix their pump.

As a former steal-er and steal-ee, my message is this: Lighten up! Getting a few gallons of gas drained out of a tank is not that big a deal. When the history of the death of GA is written, this thread, and all the mean spiritness and "get off my lawn you damned kids" vibe which it channels, will feature prominently.

Mean spiritless? Friend why be so quick to judge as mean spirited an opinion that is not in line with yours? I guess its just a reflection of the times.

Back to the topic...I suppose if I need some bolts and break pads or perhaps a tire I can borrow those as well and clearly a thorough preflight should catch that. I mean who wants to get stuck in Arkansas when in GA you can take at will? If you never paid for that pump gas, you stole it, and that passive-aggressive behavior of punishing the Field for something a police officer did to you is somewhat anti-social. Because in the future that pump may be turned off completely for other aviators, due to your action. I would suggest if you have a fuel stop call ahead and find out if they have gas if not find a field that does.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I don't consider putting a bucket under your drain and sumping out fuel tampering with an airplane. Taking some scat tubing out of the engine cowl or taking a fuel cap or taking a spark plug, something like that I would consider tampering. We obviously have different definitions of tampering.

You have all the right in the world to hold that opinion, but I will reiterate my request. Please don’t touch my plane without my permission. I can assure you that I won’t be touching yours.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I haven't seen this much chest thumping since...well..since ever. Disgusting. Somebody in need grabs a few gallons from a tank, leaves a thank you note and overpays for the gas he took, and some of you hope he has good dental insurance because you're going to bash his teeth in. Seriously? You think a milliliter of whatever inside a mystery siphon hose is going to contaminate a 25 (or more) gallon tank of 100LL to the point it'll being your plane down? You don't preflight carefully enough to notice you're missing a few gallons (assuming you didn't read the note the "unauthorized purchaser" left for you?)?

This is why I like my dogs more than most people. "You touch my stuff, I break your face." Whatever. Life isn't about stuff. Thump away if you need to... But chest thumping really only makes the thumper feel stronger. Nothing else.

It is NOT about my “stuff.” It is about the safety of my family. Don’t touch my plane and there will never be any chance that you will have any effect, at least in that way, on the safety of my family.

If you want to drain every drop of fuel from my road vehicles and reimburse me for it, particularly if you’re in a jam, help yourself. If you are indeed in a jam, then don’t even worry about paying me for it. That poses no threat to me or my family. I’m glad to help. Touching my airplane, however, even though an extremely remote possibility DOES pose such a chance. DONT TOUCH.

If you are stranded needing fuel at my airport, give me a call. I will very cheerfully come out and get you fueled up. If you’re in a pinch, you don’t even have to pay me for it.

The issue here is RESPECT, not fuel. I have all the respect in the world for other people’s property and safety. It would be courteous for others to offer me at least a small amount of the same respect.

 

[Piper18O]

Touching my airplane, however, even though an extremely remote possibility DOES pose such a chance. DONT TOUCH.

I landed just ahead of a gust front, taxied up and tied my airplane right next to yours. A few seconds later, the gust front arrived. Your airplane was faced the wrong direction, and with winds blowing 60+ miles per hour, your ailerons started flapping violently. I quickly went over and grabbed a hold of your ailerons and held them steady, trying to protect your airplane from damage in that wind. Oops! I touched your airplane, even though you told me not to. Are you going to break my face? Did I do something wrong?

 

[MBDiagMan]

I landed just ahead of a gust front, taxied up and tied my airplane right next to yours. A few seconds later, the gust front arrived. Your airplane was faced the wrong direction, and with winds blowing 60+ miles per hour, your ailerons started flapping violently. I quickly went over and grabbed a hold of your ailerons and held them steady, trying to protect your airplane from damage in that wind. Oops! I touched your airplane, even though you told me not to. Are you going to break my face? Did I do something wrong?

Now you’re being ridiculous.

 

[Piper18O]

Looking at the definition of tampering (general and legal), I am not entirely sure that this scenario would necessarily be a case of tampering as no damage would have been caused to the plane and the owner was notified of what was done. Theft may be a fuzzier issue depending on the jurisdiction.

Thanks for trying to look at things from a more practical viewpoint while still being willing to look at others viewpoints with an open mind. Still, though, in my mind, I think we are missing the point. Do we want to live in a purely legalistic world? When we decide to paint everything in black or white, without regard for humanity, I think we might just find ourselves living in a sad cold world. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." If I have an emergency, even if only in my own mind, and I have to borrow 5 or 10 gallons of fuel in order to prevent my disaster, I would absolutely be as careful as I could to drain the fuel from your sumps so as not to cause any problem. I would then tell you about what I felt I had to do because of my own perceived emergency, make just compensation, and leave you a way to get a hold of me if you determined that you were not fairly compensated. Once you read my note, I would hope that you would be able to put yourself in my shoes and would show some understanding and compassion. Once the ability to show compassion becomes the exception instead of the rule, I fear we then will all be living in misery.

 

[Piper18O]

Now you’re being ridiculous.

Why? Is it because I was being completely legalistic without regard for common sense or a sense of humanity?