Grumman electrical failure. Crashes into Cessna on runway.

I think it was supremely foolish and multiple horrible decisions to put him in this position, but I will grant one thing. It looks like he was offsetting to the left because the Cessna was offset to the right, and then the Cessna cut a quick left in front of him. That seems like a reasonable mistake to me. It's one of my pet peeves when people do this in cars. Swerving to the right before a left turn does nothing but confuse the people behind you. You can tell he was surprised when the Cessna cut in front of him. He didn't expect that. He probably thought the Cessna was making room for him.

Had the Cessna turned right, or just gone straight, there probably wouldn't have been an accident. Stay on the center line until your turn.


Screenshot 2025-01-11 at 3.26.21 PM.pngScreenshot 2025-01-11 at 3.26.21 PMx.png
 
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Salty said:
I think it was supremely foolish and multiple horrible decisions to put him in this position, but I will grant one thing. It looks like he was offsetting to the left because the Cessna was offset to the right, and then the Cessna cut a quick left in front of him. That seems like a reasonable mistake to me. It's one of my pet peeves when people do this in cars. Swerving to the right before a left turn does nothing but confuse the people behind you. You can tell he was surprised when the Cessna cut in front of him. He didn't expect that. He probably thought the Cessna was making room for him.

Had the Cessna turned right, or just gone straight, there probably wouldn't have been an accident. Stay on the center line until your turn.
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say whaaaat? 1) the RUNWAY is yours when landing, 2) "cut a quick left"? do you mean he turned left to exit the runway onto the taxiway like people do? 3) the cessna "cut in front of him"? wait, maybe this is all sarcasm that I'm not picking up on, if so I apologize.
 
Salty said:
I think it was supremely foolish and multiple horrible decisions to put him in this position, but I will grant one thing. It looks like he was offsetting to the left because the Cessna was offset to the right, and then the Cessna cut a quick left in front of him. That seems like a reasonable mistake to me. It's one of my pet peeves when people do this in cars. Swerving to the right before a left turn does nothing but confuse the people behind you. You can tell he was surprised when the Cessna cut in front of him. He didn't expect that. He probably thought the Cessna was making room for him.

Had the Cessna turned right, or just gone straight, there probably wouldn't have been an accident. Stay on the center line until your turn.
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I think you give the Grumman too much credit. This is a pilot out of control. Looks to me like he was offsetting to the left for no reason other than that's what many light aircraft pilots do unintentionally all the time - land left of centerline. Given the complete lack of any emergency (unless sometimes shows up in the investigation), even giving him that much benefit of the doubt is a stretch.

IMO, the only thing that could have saved the 182 from the Grumman would have been someone on the ramp with a radio yelling out, "Cessna 182, go around!!!" in enough time to make it happen and the 182 doing it. That would have been a lot to ask for.
 
eman1200 said:
say whaaaat? 1) the RUNWAY is yours when landing, 2) "cut a quick left"? do you mean he turned left to exit the runway onto the taxiway like people do? 3) the cessna "cut in front of him"? wait, maybe this is all sarcasm that I'm not picking up on, if so I apologize.
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I did not say they did anything "wrong". But if they'd stayed on the center line until the turn, it may not have happened.
 
lol.

based on the 1st pic salty posted, whoever said there's no room to land on the grass is cra cra. easily could have landed on the grass on the left. might have taken out the second taxiway sign but who cares.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think you give the Grumman too much credit. This is a pilot out of control. Looks to me like he was offsetting to the left for no reason other than that's what many light aircraft pilots do unintentionally all the time - land left of centerline.
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My wife gets upset when I make comments about the centerline being out of service during her landings.
 
Salty said:
I did not say they did anything "wrong". But if they'd stayed on the center line until the turn, it may not have happened.
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If the 182 pilot had decided to do something other than fly on that day he wouldn't have been hit either.
 
JackL-3J said:
If the 182 pilot had decided to do something other than fly on that day he wouldn't have been hit either.
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Ok, there's nothing for anyone to learn here but don't be the Grumman guy. I got it.
 
Salty said:
I did not say they did anything "wrong". But if they'd stayed on the center line until the turn, it may not have happened.
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I didn't understand. If the thesis is that the Grumman pilot cheated left because the 182 pilot cheated right, what would the Grumman pilot have done that would have saved the day if the 182 pilot stayed on the centerline?
 
Lindberg said:
I didn't understand. If the thesis is that the Grumman pilot cheated left because the 182 pilot cheated right, what would the Grumman pilot have done that would have saved the day if the 182 pilot stayed on the centerline?
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Hit the brakes harder? Actually sidestep off the runway? Two just off the top of my head.
 
Salty said:
Hit the brakes harder? Actually sidestep off the runway? Two just off the top of my head.
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All that assumes a pilot with a helmet fire who is thinking anything other than, “I gotta get down NOW no matter what else happens.”

Maybe there is a rational explanation for what happened. I keep hoping. But I’m naturally optimistic.
 
In that situation - VMC, engine running normally, flight controls functioning - doing anything but a normal landing doesn’t make sense. There was, in fact, no urgency.
 
midlifeflyer said:
All that assumes a pilot with a helmet fire who is thinking anything other than, “I gotta get down NOW no matter what else happens.”

Maybe there is a rational explanation for what happened. I keep hoping. But I’m naturally optimistic.
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Unfortunately, it now seems possible that the rational explanation is that the pilot was consciously reckless, as opposed to unconsciously negligent. Some part of me wishes this was a total flub and not a situation he deliberately created through a multi-step decision tree, but the NTSB prelim now has me thinking otherwise as I discussed in my earlier post.
 
eman1200 said:
lol.

based on the 1st pic salty posted, whoever said there's no room to land on the grass is cra cra. easily could have landed on the grass on the left. might have taken out the second taxiway sign but who cares.
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You REALLY don’t want to try to land on that grass between the runway and taxiway. It’s a drainage swale, not flat and level.
 
The
eman1200 said:
I guess I have to believe you if you're based there but you're saying this area specifically isn't flat?

View attachment 137044
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The dropoff is more than you can see from this angle, and it's gently sloped into the center swale (which is obvious even from this angle). If you drift down into the swale even a little bit, it's going to hurt A LOT when you reach the next taxiway.

Were I to be landing dead-stick there with a blocked runway, I would go for the taxiway (which was empty) before attempting the grass.
 
StraightnLevel said:
The

The dropoff is more than you can see from this angle, and it's gently sloped into the center swale (which is obvious even from this angle). If you drift down into the swale even a little bit, it's going to hurt A LOT when you reach the next taxiway.

Were I to be landing dead-stick there with a blocked runway, I would go for the taxiway (which was empty) before attempting the grass.
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ok so "gently sloped", not flat, got it.
 
eman1200 said:
ok so "gently sloped", not flat, got it.
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That was the excuse some quarterback gave for his three interceptions playing on a natural grass field. (The astroturf in his team's dome was perfectly flat.)

But, to be fair to @StraightnLevel, with the Grumman driver's, ahem, skill set, he probably would have ended up hanging upside down from his safety harness.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Or how about just go around and not destroy any planes?
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That would have been the smart thing to do. I mentioned on another site that he could have even overflown the Cessna and landed on the remaining runway. Not a great option but that might have only gotten him a 709 ride. Lots of options available but it seems he had "target fixation" ... :eek:
 
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Salty said:
It looks like he was offsetting to the left because the Cessna was offset to the right, and then the Cessna cut a quick left in front of him. That seems like a reasonable mistake to me. It's one of my pet peeves when people do this in cars. Swerving to the right before a left turn does nothing but confuse the people behind you.
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Come on, that is not at all what happened. The Grumman almost loses directional control on touchdown, nearly going off the left side of the runway. He straightens it out after touchdown and then the Cessna starts the turn toward the exit. The Cessna is to the right of the Grumman because the Grumman is on the left side of the runway. The Cessna is perfectly on the centerline the whole time until turning off at the taxiway exit.
 
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StraightnLevel said:
You REALLY don’t want to try to land on that grass between the runway and taxiway. It’s a drainage swale, not flat and level.
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I thought about the grass between the rwy and taxiway at an airport I frequent, just in case. One day I had to retrieve something dropped from an airplane and walked that grass area. That’s when I noticed the hidden drainage culverts when I tripped in one.

Do what you need to do, but don’t assume there aren’t hazards.
 
dmspilot said:
Come on, that is not at all what happened. The Grumman almost loses directional control on touchdown, nearly going off the left side of the runway. He straightens it out after touchdown and then the Cessna starts the turn toward the exit. The Cessna is to the right of the Grumman because the Grumman is on the left side of the runway. The Cessna is perfectly on the centerline the whole time until turning off at the taxiway exit.
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How do you get all that? The image I posted suggests otherwise.
 
Salty said:
How do you get all that? The image I posted suggests otherwise.
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By watching the video.

The image you posted does not show the Cessna to the right of the centerline. It shows the Grumman's nose pointed off the side of the runway toward the 1,000 foot marking.

You need to watch the video again, and put your glasses on this time. The Grumman touches down in a left 15 degree bank with a right crosswind. It's out of control.
 
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"A witness pilot who was holding short of runway 32 stated that he observed the AA-5 following
about 100 yards behind the 182T. He stated that the pilot of the AA-5 flew an unstable final approach, bounced on the runway, and veered left of the runway centerline before impacting the 182T."

This does not sound like a pilot that was skillful enough to purposely land left of center in order to overtake.
 
yeah salty put your glasses on!!

this was at touchdown, actually the cessna was on centerline, which is a weird thing to see high wing pilots do:

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and this was when the grumman bounced it on the ground with the cezzna mostly on the centerline:

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and this is salty watching the video:

bubbles.gif
 
Racerx said:
"A witness pilot who was holding short of runway 32 stated that he observed the AA-5 following
about 100 yards behind the 182T. He stated that the pilot of the AA-5 flew an unstable final approach, bounced on the runway, and veered left of the runway centerline before impacting the 182T" . . ..
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This does not sound like a driver that either made good decisions or was technically skillful.
 
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