Get A&P license to maintain own Airplane

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MikeG2572

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Michael
Hi Guys,

I going to start my PPL training here in the next week or 2 and i have already started to look into the buy a plane vs rent after i get my PPL. Everyone talks about the cost of maintenance when it comes to owning a place (annuals, labor to change a starter, overhaul cost... etc) and seeing that i live in Los Angeles, i would think A&P hourly rate is more than most places in the country.

So i did a little research on getting an A&P license. My local community college is an approved FAA mechanic school, and it is a total of 60 units for both Airframe and Power plant which would total roughly $3000 over 2 years maybe $3500 with books and materials.

When it comes to annuals alone costing $1000 on a small single, going through the training and being licensed seems cheap.

Is there something that i am missing?

Thanks
Mike
 
There are a lot of things one can ‘legally’ do without an A&P license. Those items are listed in the regs.

Of course an A&P license would be handy, if so inclined. One can also sniff around for an owner assisted annual, just have to find the right shop. At this point in training I would concentrate on pilot training, not worry about the mechanics license.

Some depends on what you want to do down the road, if desiring a piloting career, concentrate on flying.
 
To do annuals on a type certificated aircraft you need an IA not just an A&P.

You would save money on labor, but you still have to buy the stupid expensive "aircraft grade" parts.

What kind of airplane do you need that you won't find out there in the homebuilt world?
 
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To do annuals you’ll need your IA as well as your A&P. You will need to wait for three years after getting your A&P to test for the IA and you will need 24 months of being actively engaged as well. That means full time work as an A&P. Then there are renewal requirements every two years which also require that you be actively engaged. So unless you plan on working as an A&P/IA full time, it makes no sense to even think about it.
 
MikeG2572 said:
Is there something that i am missing?
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Are you retired? If not, will you be able to spend the time required by the program? FWIW, $3,500.00 sounds like a pretty good deal for an A&P school...
 
mscard88 said:
Hey, you'll also need your.....never mind, already answered 2-3 times! :rofl::rofl::rofl:
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yup....and it's easy enough to get all that. Prolly only takes a few years of full time work or classes....any fool can do it. o_O
 
MikeG2572 said:
Hi Guys,

I going to start my PPL training here in the next week or 2 and i have already started to look into the buy a plane vs rent after i get my PPL. Everyone talks about the cost of maintenance when it comes to owning a place (annuals, labor to change a starter, overhaul cost... etc) and seeing that i live in Los Angeles, i would think A&P hourly rate is more than most places in the country.

So i did a little research on getting an A&P license. My local community college is an approved FAA mechanic school, and it is a total of 60 units for both Airframe and Power plant which would total roughly $3000 over 2 years maybe $3500 with books and materials.

When it comes to annuals alone costing $1000 on a small single, going through the training and being licensed seems cheap.

Is there something that i am missing?

Thanks
Mike
Click to expand...
no
 
SkyDog58 said:
To do annuals you’ll need your IA as well as your A&P. You will need to wait for three years after getting your A&P to test for the IA and you will need 24 months of being actively engaged as well. That means full time work as an A&P. Then there are renewal requirements every two years which also require that you be actively engaged. So unless you plan on working as an A&P/IA full time, it makes no sense to even think about it.
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Depends on your level of dedication. I got both my mechanic certificate and IA primarily to maintain my own airplane(s) but I also maintain a few other airplanes that a friend of mine owns.

As you implied, there will be a significant amount of time and energy spent in earning the certificate and gaining the IA but maintaining it afterward shouldn’t be too bad. The OP needs to decide how much the privilege/responsibility is worth to him.
 
MikeG2572 said:
Hi Guys,

I going to start my PPL training here in the next week or 2 and i have already started to look into the buy a plane vs rent after i get my PPL. Everyone talks about the cost of maintenance when it comes to owning a place (annuals, labor to change a starter, overhaul cost... etc) and seeing that i live in Los Angeles, i would think A&P hourly rate is more than most places in the country.

So i did a little research on getting an A&P license. My local community college is an approved FAA mechanic school, and it is a total of 60 units for both Airframe and Power plant which would total roughly $3000 over 2 years maybe $3500 with books and materials.

When it comes to annuals alone costing $1000 on a small single, going through the training and being licensed seems cheap.

Is there something that i am missing?

Thanks
Mike
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Yeah, all the liability and nonsense that comes to those folks exercising those privileges. I can't imagine the airport authorities and EPAs in the state of CA are tickled to have freelancing mechanics do whatever they want.
 
MikeG2572 said:
Hi Guys,


So i did a little research on getting an A&P license. My local community college is an approved FAA mechanic school, and it is a total of 60 units for both Airframe and Power plant which would total roughly $3000 over 2 years maybe $3500 with books and materials.

When it comes to annuals alone costing $1000 on a small single, going through the training and being licensed seems cheap.

Is there something that i am missing?

Thanks
Mike
Click to expand...

For $3500 I would go for it. My nearest community college with an A&P program (out of county) was going to be more like $12000 and a long commute so it was not worth it to me. Luckily I have found an A&P/IA who does owner assisted annuals for $375 and supervises my own maintenance work.
 
I did it.
There are (huge) pros and cons.

One thing about taking on all the mx for your own a/c which is often ignored is, YOU will probably be responsible for anything mechanical which happens to the airplane and the occupants when it crashes. Add that to your already-existing responsibility as pic for that airplane when it crashes. The sum of those two means for 98% of the time....it's all on you.
For me that's more of a mental stressor than a legal-liability thing.
 
MikeG2572 said:
Is there something that i am missing?
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Just a few things. But you may want to get your pilot license first and see if aviation is your thing. In the mean time network with any mechanic that will answer your questions. Once you get comfortable flying and have an understanding on how aviation works, then would I start looking at A&P school if still interested.

However, if your thought process is strictly that working on your own aircraft as an A&P will save you money... well that depends. Unfortunately, an A&P certificate does not give you instant experience nor provide the necessary tools to maintain your aircraft at the same level as a 20 year full-time mechanic with a shop. So I would use the term "savings" loosely in this regard. As mentioned above, finding a A&P/IA who offers owner-assisted mx/annuals is a solid way to "save" on aircraft costs and learn more on your aircraft. You might consider the PPL>>owner-assisted>>A&P>>IA route as a Plan B over jumping into both worlds head first at the beginning.
 
If you want to get it to get it, for sure!

But from a cost benifit ratio, if you’re ONLY working on your own plane, don’t think it’ll make the P&L list happy
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
when it crashes... when it crashes.
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I assume you don't often get accused of being an optimist?

As far as I'm concerned, the big downside to maintaining my own airplane ('cepen the annual condition inspection) is nothing gets fixed until I get it fixed. My ride was down for a good 6 months last winter while I piddled around fabricating a new gas tank.
 
yup....mine was down a full year getting a top overhaul. But, it only cost me $7,000. ;)
 
Well, um ... it would be a HELL of a lot easier and a lot easier on your pocketbook if you BOUGHT the airplane and started working on it under the watchful eye of a friendly A/P. Remember, that time it takes to qualify for the A/P certificate isn't all greasy fingernails. Simply LOOKING at and STUDYING maintenance manuals qualifies. I'm not sure if reading Richard Bach's books qualifies. I have been inspecting a few airplanes in my last 50 years and I've signed off a few folks that I would trust working on my own airplane. Then it is YOUR logbook showing how much time you spent to qualify to sit for the IA. YOUR word and YOUR logbook. Capiche?
 
Probably the best money in aviation you will ever spend, the education you will get will be with you forever unlike those who would not spend the time and show their lack of aircraft maintenance knowledge around here.
 
The most important things are to lose all arrogance and realize how much you dont know -even about the simplest things that you thought you had nailed, be eager to learn, dont hesitate to stop the repair and crack a book to make sure you are doing it right.
Things change so be flexible and stay abreast of changes (‘we’ve always done it that way’ may not cut it)
And one thing I’m looking out for is, when will I be too old to stay motivated/healthy/mentally sharp enough to keep at it?
 
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I would say it's not worth it. Full time at school for almost 2 years. You could have your commercial rating by then for less effort. Also not only does the IA have currency requirements you'll never meet maintaining only one plane, you also have an a&p currency to think of. It's been a long time since I've been in the field but I believe it is 6 months of exercising your licence every 2 years minimum.
 
will44s said:
I would say it's not worth it. Full time at school for almost 2 years. You could have your commercial rating by then for less effort. Also not only does the IA have currency requirements you'll never meet maintaining only one plane, you also have an a&p currency to think of. It's been a long time since I've been in the field but I believe it is 6 months of exercising your licence every 2 years minimum.
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The currency of an IA isn't an issue...I do it. It requires 8 hrs of training each year...and it can be done online using a $50 Gleim program.
 
I like to do an owner assisted annual,and minor maintenance.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
The currency of an IA isn't an issue...I do it. It requires 8 hrs of training each year...and it can be done online using a $50 Gleim program.
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True but being actively engaged as an A&P is the larger threshold and aircraft owners who only do their own maintenance simply cannot meet that threshold.
 
Here is what you are missing.

1. Double-check that cost. I looked at one similar program recently and there were A&P "lab fees" that doubled the tuition cost. I don't need it, I have my A&P.

2. I hope you are a damn good mechanic if you think you can just jump on fixing an airplane. I am 65 and have been repairing and restoring cars, boats, and motorcycles since I was 15. I have worked professionally at that. I am a damn good mechanic. Just now, after one year of my "self-directed apprenticeship" as an A&P, do I feel I have the skills to work unsupervised at a professional level.

3. You cannot do an annual inspection. That is done by an A&P/IA, which you will not become as a casual mechanic. All you can do as an A&P is grunt work and you can do that already. I am talking about the inspection. Yes, the A&P can make needed repairs but you can do that without the license provided an A&P supervises and it is not hard to find an A&P to supervise for a nominal fee, probably no fee at all if the supervising mechanic is also getting paid to perform the annual.

4. So, best case scenario. You are a freshly-minted A&P and notice that your front strut is leaking oil. You are ready to jump in, repair it, and sign the aircraft off as airworthy. WooHoo, I don't have to pay an A&P!! Wait...
- have you previously done similar work at an earlier date? If not, you need someone else to supervise and sign off.
- have you worked 6 months in the past 24 as a A&P? If not, you need someone else to supervise and sign off.
- do you feel competent to tackle this job unsupervised and then put your loved ones in the airplane? If not, you need someone else to supervise and sign off.

Long short. I have a friend that restores Luscombes from baskets of part. He is not an A&P. He is not even a pilot. He is mechanical engineer that loves doing that. He pays an A&P/IA to check his work. That is all you need.
 
SkyDog58 said:
but being actively engaged as an A&P is the larger threshold
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FYI: "actively engaged" technically only applies to IA renewals not A&P "recent experience." Yes it's a larger threshold but much easier to comply with.

alfadog said:
- have you previously done similar work at an earlier date? If not, you need someone else to supervise and sign off.
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Not quite. There are 3 methods that allow an A&P to perform a specific task and sign it off: performed prior; performed it under supervision; or show ability to perform it to the Administrator. The 3rd item is the catchall and is how A&Ps work/sign on new models or other types with no prior experience of the task. And the Feds usually define "show ability" as having/following a written procedure like OEM STC instructions, ICAs, or MMs.

alfadog said:
- have you worked 6 months in the past 24 as a A&P? If not, you need someone else to supervise and sign off.
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It's not "worked" but "served under his rating" which is very broad in definition. So broad, that when you put your hand on your aircraft to look it over or change the oil you do it with your A&P hat on which counts as "recent experience." As such there is no regulatory requirement to log that experience as an IA must do to exercise their privileges.
 
SkyDog58 said:
True but being actively engaged as an A&P is the larger threshold and aircraft owners who only do their own maintenance simply cannot meet that threshold.
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Nope...any loggable Maint entry counts as being actively engaged. ;)

And the Balt FSDO agrees...for almost 10 years with multiple renewals.
 
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I wonder if that $3500 factors in the cost of the certification tests -- add another grand. You'll have to take three writtens and two practicals from a DME--ka ching. The community college I went to only provided the paperwork to allow me to take the tests. Many in my class never got their certification--what a waste. Also, I don't believe anyone has mentioned the cost of tools --ka ching. Sure you can do a lot with some screwdrivers and wrenches you might already have, but there's lots of tasks that require some specific aviation tools. Unless you intend to turn wrenches for a career or are retired (why I got my A&P--the VA paid for it and wanted to save some money on my own airplane), you're talking about a huge investment in time and effort. If I was a young pilot, I'd look more at the experimental market and forego the A&P. Or. as others suggested, work under the supervision of an A&P.
 
Witmo said:
I wonder if that $3500 factors in the cost of the certification tests -- add another grand. You'll have to take three writtens and two practicals from a DME--ka ching. The community college I went to only provided the paperwork to allow me to take the tests. Many in my class never got their certification--what a waste. Also, I don't believe anyone has mentioned the cost of tools --ka ching. Sure you can do a lot with some screwdrivers and wrenches you might already have, but there's lots of tasks that require some specific aviation tools. Unless you intend to turn wrenches for a career or are retired (why I got my A&P--the VA paid for it and wanted to save some money on my own airplane), you're talking about a huge investment in time and effort. If I was a young pilot, I'd look more at the experimental market and forego the A&P. Or. as others suggested, work under the supervision of an A&P.
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and tools, my mechanics tool box cost more than 3500 lol
 
Timbeck2 said:
Just wondering and this seems like a good thread to ask - do you need an IA to sign off annuals?
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No, you need an IA to perform the annual inspection. Then he can sign it off. Anything else is "pencil-whipping". Here is a couple of thing I have seen so far...
- IA signs off on an annual after an A&P performs and signs off on a 100-hr. Pencil-whipping.
- IA comes on site and signs off the annual taking the word of the A&P that he performed the inspection and everything is good to go. Pencil-whipping.
- IA works as a CFII for the aircraft owner and signs off the annual after work done by non-A&P workers with minimal supervision by A&P. Pencil-whipping.
 
Witmo said:
I wonder if that $3500 factors in the cost of the certification tests -- add another grand. You'll have to take three writtens and two practicals from a DME--ka ching. The community college I went to only provided the paperwork to allow me to take the tests. Many in my class never got their certification--what a waste.
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As far as I know, your experience is standard at a part 147 school. The training only qualifies you to take take the written and practical tests.

That said, the only DME I am aware of in my local FSDO works for the community college with the aviation maintenance program. So effectively you’re graduating and getting your FAA certificate at the same place and time. I believe the testing comes at an additional charge.
 
alfadog said:
No, you need an IA to perform the annual inspection. Then he can sign it off. Anything else is "pencil-whipping". Here is a couple of thing I have seen so far...
- IA signs off on an annual after an A&P performs and signs off on a 100-hr. Pencil-whipping.
- IA comes on site and signs off the annual taking the word of the A&P that he performed the inspection and everything is good to go. Pencil-whipping.
- IA works as a CFII for the aircraft owner and signs off the annual after work done by non-A&P workers with minimal supervision by A&P. Pencil-whipping.
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The IAs doing these sorts of things should really get some remedial training and be forced to take the IA exam again. In the testing it is made very clear that the annual inspection cannot be delegated.
 
I thought about getting the A&P. With a back ground of working on cars, medium and heavy duty trucks, high performance street cars and race cars, I thought it would be worth it. But I planned to fly for a living and I did not want two jobs and one paycheck.

I figured I would leave the mechanical work to the professionals. So far that has worked out for me. In 22 years I have only met one mechanic that should never allowed close to a plane.
 
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