Garmin G5 Yellow Heading & Warranty Saga (retitled)

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machkhatib

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4/15/2024 update: Problem solved. See https://pilotsofamerica.com/communi...anty-saga-retitled.146190/page-3#post-3509076

Original post below…

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What a nightmare.

My avionics shop installed dual Garmin G5’s for me in early October 2023. Ever since the install, I’ve experienced intermittent yellow heading anomalies (the heading is highlighted “yellow,” indicating an error). My avionics shop is a licensed Garmin dealer and has installed hundreds of G5's. They've never had this issue before. My shop is standing by its work and promised to resolve the issue at no additional cost to me. My shop has done everything Garmin has asked and I've been flying nearly every week to test fly my plane after my shop's numerous attempted fixes. It is mind-boggling how hard Garmin is trying to duck from replacing equipment under warranty.

1. Garmin told my shop to update the G5 units to the latest software. Done.

2. Garmin told my shop to redo the AHRS calibration. Done.

3. Garmin told my shop to swap the G5 units (top AI unit becomes the bottom HSI unit, and vice versa) and redo the AHRS calibration again. Done.

4. Garmin told my shop to redo the magnetometer calibration. Done.

5. Garmin told my shop to download the data from the G5 units and send it to its engineering team. Done, twice.

6. Garmin told my shop to relocate the magnetometer, redo the magnetometer calibration again, replace the wing light wiring with shielded wires, and redo the AHRS calibration again. Done.

7. My shop, desperate for ideas, took a guess that maybe my old turn coordinator might be creating some magnetic interference. I bought a brand-new brushless Mid-Continent turn coordinator ($1400) and had my shop install it. The issue persists.

Garmin now begrudgingly sent us a new magnetometer BUT PRESENTLY REFUSES TO REPLACE THE G5 UNIT THAT PERSISTENTLY SHOWS THE YELLOW HEADING ERRORS! They want us to first replace the magnetometer (and redo the magnetometer calibration a third time) before they'll consider it, and we only got the new magnetometer after my shop begged and pleaded with Garmin. To put things in perspective, I have now spent 20 hours test-flying and took a gamble on a new turn coordinator, and my shop says it has lost "thousands of dollars on this install" (I believe it). A G5 retails for $2500, Garmin. What. The. Frick.

Garmin has been slow-rolling us for months on replacing anomalous equipment and at this point it is beyond frustrating. I also feel bad for my shop and I can't believe Garmin makes it such a PITA for their own licensed dealers to get equipment replaced under warranty.

Is there a secret to succeeding with a Garmin warranty claim? Or is it always hell?
 
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Is there any way to test fly it with all the electrics in the airplane off, except those required to run the G5s?
If no fault after x hours, gradually bring each circuit breaker online and see if you can find interference?
(I realize you believe the G5 is faulty, and it could be)
 
These things are tough to diagnose. We had to relocate the magnetometer on ours to solve a similar problem only to later find the white LED light on mounted on the tail was also inducing enough noise to cause heading errors.

Replaced that light with a different LED and that solved our problem.

Unfortunately, G’s maintenance manual states there’s very little that can be done to the individual parts; they are pretty much LRUs other than software updates.

Can’t really help with convincing Garmin to provide better support though.
 
Sorry, I don't have any words of wisdom for you. Does the problem follow one particular G5, as you swap it from the AI to the DG position? Does it manifest itself in the same slot, regardless of the unit installed in that slot?

Garmin is not what it used to be, when it comes to the little guy in GA. They're now big boys, competing for cockpits in things significantly larger than a 172. And their product mindset seems to reflect that.
The fact that Avidyne could come up with drop-in replacements for the 400/500 series units, but Garmin wanted GA to rip their panels and install 650s or 750s says a lot. It is frustrating that none of the players in the avionics market have come up with a viable and cost-effective certified IFR navigator at a price that doesn't add up to half the appraised value of the aircraft once installed by the "dealer network".

These days, I try to avoid giving Garmin money. Their attitude was one of the deciding factors in making me chose the AV-30 over the G5, for example.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Is there any way to test fly it with all the electrics in the airplane off, except those required to run the G5s?
If no fault after x hours, gradually bring each circuit breaker online and see if you can find interference?
(I realize you believe the G5 is faulty, and it could be)
Click to expand...
They can swap out the unit, and test the one sent back to them. If the returned unit tests fine, then they can "recondition" and resell it. If the problem persists on the replacement unit, they can definitively say it's not their issue. Then an exhaustive process like you propose might be appropriate.

Or they can act like they don't charge $5,000 for $500 worth of electronics, which is my read on the OP's experience.
 
machkhatib said:
3. Garmin told my shop to swap the G5 units (top AI unit becomes the bottom HSI unit, and vice versa) and redo the AHRS calibration again. Done.
Click to expand...
Did the problem follow the unit when swaped?
machkhatib said:
Is there a secret to succeeding with a Garmin warranty claim? Or is it always hell?
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AV8R_87 said:
Does the problem follow one particular G5, as you swap it from the AI to the DG position?
Click to expand...

It seems to follow one particular G5 unit. One unit is responsible for 80-90% of the anomalies, regardless of what position it is in. The other unit, during all the troubleshooting, did occasionally exhibit the same yellow heading anomaly, but it isn’t doing it presently. It’s only the other unit continuing to exhibit the anomalies.

DJTorrente said:
They can swap out the unit, and test the one sent back to them. If the returned unit tests fine, then they can "recondition" and resell it.
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Garmin said it would charge my shop for the new unit if the returned unit came back and tested fine. So my shop - a Garmin dealer !!! - is in fear of losing money to Garmin and forced to jump through all their hoops, despite the warranty Garmin markets to the consumer.

It feels like a Garmin executive is under pressure to crush warranty claims.
 
machkhatib said:
Garmin said it would charge my shop for the new unit if the returned unit came back and tested fine. So my shop - a Garmin dealer !!! - is in fear of losing money to Garmin and forced to jump through all their hoops, despite the warranty Garmin markets to the consumer.
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So they want to keep the old unit and the and keep the money for the new unit? Yeah, eff them.

I was offering what they could (and should) do. As you're finding, they're not exactly eager to stand behind their product. I suppose they have a provision (restocking fee?) why their own dealer couldn't just send back the replacement unit for refund if they decide to hit you for it?
 
Took my dealer a year and multiple calls to service to figure a simple configuration issue.

You can use a simple compass to check for magnetic fields or download an App for your smartphone.
 
I just had this almost exact same problem and actually picked up my airplane today. Through thorough troubleshooting, the shop determined the CAN Bus termination block located at the magnetometer had a pin loose in the socket. They were close to replacing the magnetometer when they discovered the problem. The loose pin would interrupt the CAN Bus communications and cause havoc, beginning with failure of heading indication, then OAT, then AP failure.

It was a very simple fix once it was discovered.
 
Walboy said:
Through thorough troubleshooting, the shop determined the CAN Bus termination block located at the magnetometer had a pin loose in the socket… The loose pin would interrupt the CAN Bus communications and cause havoc, beginning with failure of heading indication, then OAT, then AP failure.
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Thanks for the reminder. Replacing the CAN bus terminators was another step Garmin had my shop do. When I say it has been an odyssey, I mean it. Every week since October, I have test-flown my plane to check another iteration of a Garmin-ordered “solution.”

We are long past the point where Garmin should have replaced the equipment. Again, my shop is a Garmin dealer that has installed hundreds of G5s and yet they are treating him like it’s the first G5 he ever installed.
 
I had the same exact problem. At the end they installed a GPS antenna directly to the G5 with the yellow warning on heading. Problem solved! It's a dash mount antenna, I think GA 25MCX. It was $100 ish installed.
 
I think it depends on how good your avionics shop is as to how good the garmin warranty service is?
I think it is too soon to completely blame garmin.
Garmin should not have to tell your shop step by step how to trouble shoot it.
If you have a magnetometer then the G5 is showing what is input to it.

I know this has been frustrating but maybe just get busy flying and enjoy it. See if it gets worse better or?
Is bad enough to be a safety issue? I really don’t know.

I have been flying with a whole panel of garmin including 2 G5s since 2018, 1250 hrs now on my panel. I got a new hobbs meter at the same time so know at glance how many hours.It all worked 100% after the install. No issues.
It has been worth it.
Early on I knew I wanted to deal with someone close and Cincinnati Avionics is a good shop. Scott does all the updates and they performs SB that garmin comes out with. He calls me and gets me to bring it in and they do them while I wait and watch.
I do my own gps updates from my I pad through a fs510. Very handy.

Maybe it is time to get a second opinion from another shop.

Another thing is very rarely I have seen yellow on my heading. I have only seen it a few times for just seconds. I didn’t even know what it meant until reading posts online about it. I did ask Scott one time and he mentioned magnetometer as I remember.
How far off is it? Is it yellow all the time? I hope you find the problem soon.
I just landed a hour or so ago as I fly it 3-7 days a week.
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I have a little GRMN stock, but will never consider buying any of their products again.
 
That is super frustrating and expensive. Sorry.
As a data point, my SkyBeacon stopped working, as shown by the FAA report. uAvionix immediately sent a brand new unit to my mechanic and pre-paid for the return shipping of my old one. The original unit that was under warranty was purchased by the previous plane owner, and they did not ask me for any proof of anything. The replacement has been working flawlessly for the last 3 years.
 
Gary Ward said:
I have been flying with a whole panel of garmin including 2 G5s since 2018, 1250 hrs now on my panel. I got a new hobbs meter at the same time so know at glance how many hours.It all worked 100% after the install. No issues.
…
Another thing is very rarely I have seen yellow on my heading. I have only seen it a few times for just seconds. I didn’t even know what it meant until reading posts online about it.
Click to expand...

I’ve seen the yellow heading on most of my flights since the install. Some flights it is occasional; some flights I don’t see it at all; other flights it is frequent. The most annoying thing about the yellow heading is that when it happens on the HSI, you lose your wind data for a few minutes. If it is happening frequently, you could have a whole flight with no wind data. I don’t have an autopilot but if I did, my understanding is the yellow heading would kick off the autopilot.

Anyway, the yellow heading is not normal and it is a problem, but the airplane is still flyable and the G5’s are still useable. I don’t feel like I should have to settle for a problematic G5, though. It is certainly not what I expected when I paid tens of thousands of dollars for new avionics (dual G5’s, GNX-375, GTR-225, PMA 450). I like the G5’s (and I had one installed by the same shop on my prior airplane without any issues) but if I had known I was going to have this problem, I would have gone with something other than G5’s.
 
I think it just depends who you get at Garmin, I had some issues and have been back and forth, it takes about 3 months to get a reply to an email from Garmin, but they seemed willing to replace a device that I was having an issue with. The device suddenly started working again, I thought it was weather dependent, like their stuff doesn’t like to work well in the summer, but I don’t know. I responded and provided an update (and hopefully some suggestions to their engineering team) to Garmin over a month ago and haven’t heard from them. Keep trying, email email, maybe you’ll get someone who wants to do their job and be helpful.
 
machkhatib said:
I’ve seen the yellow heading on most of my flights since the install. Some flights it is occasional; some flights I don’t see it at all; other flights it is frequent. The most annoying thing about the yellow heading is that when it happens on the HSI, you lose your wind data for a few minutes. If it is happening frequently, you could have a whole flight with no wind data. I don’t have an autopilot but if I did, my understanding is the yellow heading would kick off the autopilot.

Anyway, the yellow heading is not normal and it is a problem, but the airplane is still flyable and the G5’s are still useable. I don’t feel like I should have to settle for a problematic G5, though. It is certainly not what I expected when I paid tens of thousands of dollars for new avionics (dual G5’s, GNX-375, GTR-225, PMA 450). I like the G5’s (and I had one installed by the same shop on my prior airplane without any issues) but if I had known I was going to have this problem, I would have gone with something other than G5’s.
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Yes I agree with you, something is up.
I don't think garmin equipment should work and then not work.
The magnetometer installation is critical I was told.
I rely on my dealer to communicate with garmin, they talk to them regularly and that what I pay them for.
I can understand why garmin is slow to get back to someone they don't know.
 
I don’t recall the installation process, but can your G5 be pulled and swapped with another G5 equipped airplane at your home field to confirm it works properly and that you are chasing an airplane/install issue rather than a lemon G5?
 
Gary Ward said:
I rely on my dealer to communicate with garmin, they talk to them regularly and that what I pay them for.
I can understand why garmin is slow to get back to someone they don't know.
Click to expand...

To clarify, Garmin has been slow-rolling my avionics shop, which is a Garmin dealer. I called Garmin way back in October, in the beginning of this saga. They told me they don't deal with warranty issues directly through the consumer and that I would have to deal with my avionics shop / Garmin dealer.

TrueCourse said:
I don’t recall the installation process, but can your G5 be pulled and swapped with another G5 equipped airplane at your home field to confirm it works properly and that you are chasing an airplane/install issue rather than a lemon G5?
Click to expand...

How would my avionics shop / Garmin dealer get some third-party to volunteer to let them take their perfectly good G5 out of their airplane and put in a problematic G5 in its place? Wouldn't it make more sense for Garmin to send their dealer a new G5 and we send the problematic G5 back to Garmin?

Said another way, why the hell does everyone have to do backflips just so Garmin doesn't have to do what it is supposed to under its warranty?
 
Update: My shop went ahead and installed the new magnetometer, redid the magnetometer calibration (4th magnetometer calibration if we count the initial install), swapped the G5's again (top unit AI is now bottom HSI, bottom HSI is now top AI), redid the AHRS calibration (I've honestly lost count on AHRS calibrations), and updated the G5's to the latest G5 software (was previously on 8.25 but 8.26 is now out). My shop's hypothesis is that I will see the yellow anomaly on the top unit, because the anomalies seem to follow that unit regardless of position.
 
I missed the fact that one of the G5’s has most of the issues, no matter where it goes. Of course, I would want Garmin or a shop to try a loaner in your airplane or simply swap a defective unit.

If you send it out to Garmin and they test it as good, you can get it back and keep troubleshooting the issue. You’ll just be without a G5 for awhile, and not flying. Don't put a new one in there, while the original one is tested by Garmin and you run the risk of it found to be OK and losing the $ as you mentioned.

As far as getting someone to volunteer a temp installation of a working G5 into your airplane for a flight or two is predicated on how easy a swap is. Which is why I mentioned not knowing how complex it is. If the swap out is easy, a shop can somehow find a unit to put in temporarily. But that is the most challenging logistics path to take.
 
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mandm said:
I think it just depends who you get at Garmin, I had some issues and have been back and forth, it takes about 3 months to get a reply to an email from Garmin, but they seemed willing to replace a device that I was having an issue with. The device suddenly started working again, I thought it was weather dependent, like their stuff doesn’t like to work well in the summer, but I don’t know. I responded and provided an update (and hopefully some suggestions to their engineering team) to Garmin over a month ago and haven’t heard from them. Keep trying, email email, maybe you’ll get someone who wants to do their job and be helpful.
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They responded quickly to a problem I had…probably because I was standing in their bldg at Oshkosh lol.
 
Randomskylane said:
They responded quickly to a problem I had…probably because I was standing in their bldg at Oshkosh lol.
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If you bought directly from Garmin, that’s probably why. Ironically, since my equipment was purchased through an avionics shop which is a Garmin dealer, Garmin is dragging this out. It’s not my shop’s fault, of course, but Garmin’s policy results in the customer getting a worse warranty experience when they buy through a Garmin dealer. Some equipment (like the GI275 and GNX375) can only be purchased through a Garmin dealer.

If I bought a G5 from an online retailer to put into an experimental airplane, I’m guessing Garmin would have replaced the G5 months ago.

I wonder if Garmin will reimburse my shop for the tens of incremental hours (I’m estimating somewhere around 40-50 extra hours) of Garmin-directed troubleshooting steps they’ve been forced to do because Garmin doesn’t want to replace the equipment until they’re 300% sure it wasn’t an install issue. I’m skeptical because if Garmin is resistant to taking a < $2500 hit to replace a G5, why would they put themselves on the hook for $5000 in labor plus the unit cost? There’s some warranty math behind this, of course, and Garmin must be playing the odds. I assume Garmin values the hit to its customer NPS (net promoter score) at $0 because there’s no other way to justify this behavior.
 
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Something seems off. I haven't heard of shops having a relationship THAT bad with Garmin. I know Garmin is the 500lb gorilla everyone loves to hate though.
 
Well Garmin did send us a new magnetometer, which was just installed. If the anomaly persists, my shop is confident that Garmin will finally - FINALLY - send a new G5.
 
Let the forum know if the anomaly persists - have the same yellow heading issue, but only appears after make a high-rate-of-turn change of direction. Otherwise seems ok - i.e. in normal flight all is well with no yellow. Usually the heading is actually correct-ish when yellow and fixes to white in ten to twenty seconds.
 
For what it’s worth, I momentarily get the yellow heading as well. This only started happening more since doing the update to 8.20. Prior to that they were both rock solid so I believe it’s more of an issue with whatever the current software happens to be whether it’s the G5 itself or magnetometer. It might be worth asking the shop if they can roll back the unit to an earlier version as they would have obviously updated everything to the latest if it’s a new install. And before anyone asks - yes you can 100% do that. Garmin even sent me the older software at one point due to an issue.
 
Steamflyer said:
Let the forum know if the anomaly persists - have the same yellow heading issue, but only appears after make a high-rate-of-turn change of direction. Otherwise seems ok - i.e. in normal flight all is well with no yellow. Usually the heading is actually correct-ish when yellow and fixes to white in ten to twenty seconds.
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I just flew on Feb. 17 (after the new magnetometer was installed) and the anomaly persisted. I saw it occur on both G5’s (alternating between them). Yes, when the anomaly occurs, the heading is off by less than 5 degrees (typically 1-3 degrees). It may only last 10 seconds or so each occurrence, but it reoccurs throughout the flight.

Is the G5 just buggy with magnetometer-derived headings? Am I putting my avionics shop through all of this when it might just be bad hardware/software design by Garmin, and no matter what my shop does, and no matter what replacement equipment Garmin sends, the yellow heading anomalies will continue to occur on G5’s?

It’s ironic because people here were beating up the AV-30 for heading inaccuracies when a magnetometer wasn’t installed, but my experience with Garmin G5’s WITH a magnetometer installed has been plagued with anomalies.
 
I have a G-5 as back up to an Aspen in my plane. In 160 hours, no yellow annunciations at all.

It may be a bad G-5, but I am betting on some interference to the magnetometer.
 
Pinecone said:
I have a G-5 as back up to an Aspen in my plane. In 160 hours, no yellow annunciations at all.

It may be a bad G-5, but I am betting on some interference to the magnetometer.
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Good to know. Anyone else have G5 experiences they can share?
 
Have 5 G5s in two different airplanes, three magnetometers between them, a yellow once in a while has happened, and I don't care about it. These are individual separate gyros comparing a measurement and occasionally throw a flag. IIRC it does not kick off the GCF500 autopilot.

I have always wondered if there are certain aircraft/engine/prop harmonics that can screw these up.
 
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By any chance do you have strobes (non-LED)? Have you tried turning them off when you get the error?
 
machkhatib said:
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Is the G5 just buggy with magnetometer-derived headings? Am I putting my avionics shop through all of this when it might just be bad hardware/software design by Garmin, and no matter what my shop does, and no matter what replacement equipment Garmin sends, the yellow heading anomalies will continue to occur on G5’s?
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Once we found a source of electromagnetic interference and resolved the interference, we had no issues with our heading.

I suspect there is something generating EMI that’s causing the problem. This could be anything in your electrical system. We traced ours to activation of an LED position light. After we ruled out the strobes, the taxi and landing lights, each radio, the ADF, pretty much anything we could isolate and turn on/offoff by a switch, circuit breaker, or power supply disconnect, we found a single LED bulb that was causing the problem and swapped it out.

It’s no fun troubleshooting.
 
asicer said:
Not it hasn't, but the 430/530 hasn't had warranty coverage in over a decade (see thread title). :)
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I have a couple Garmin products (nothing mentioned in the article) but the part that struck me was the $500.00 "processing fee" for units that can't be fixed due to them not having the parts. I understand there would be some costs involved for shipping and having them look at it to determine the problem but that seems a bit much ...
 
Daleandee said:
I have a couple Garmin products (nothing mentioned in the article) but the part that struck me was the $500.00 "processing fee" for units that can't be fixed due to them not having the parts. I understand there would be some costs involved for shipping and having them look at it to determine the problem but that seems a bit much ...
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As I recall, they said they're still trying to harvest usable parts. I'll bet they'll gladly waive the $500 if you elect not to have it shipped back to you.
 
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