From the Vet Thread: Do not commit murder

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Feb 22, 2005
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Display name:
Ben
רָצַח : (ratzákh): To to kill deliberately, or murder

Please discuss respectfully

Here's my take, as a vegetarian.


What won't surprise you:

1) Killing another human being in cold blood, outside of cases of self-defence, is רָצַח

2) As a vegetarian, I obviously don't eat animals, because I feel that God gave us dominion over them, and we either leave them alone, or become their caretakers (pet owners, dairy farmers, etc.). This is especially important, since consumption of animals is not needed to sustain our lives. But I also bear in mind Romans 14:6 "Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God."

Self defense:

3) Killing a human or animal (insect, etc.) in self-defense is not רָצַח , because it is not done with the purpose of extinguishing a helpless life.

AND

4) Killing during war is also not רָצַח , because a) the enemy is neither helpless nor innocent, and b) it is a form of self-defense, of country. (Note that this does not, of course, apply to raping and pillaging.)

PLEASE NOTE: The above is only my opinion. And I do NOT presume to judge anyone, PERIOD, because I know that I am imperfect in God's eyes, and that only God can judge.
 
And...here....we.....go!! (That's an MMA reference for those who don't follow)

Two quick points as to stewardship over animals and what that entails.
1) "The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." Gen 3 God is obviously ok with leather.
2) "The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tent of meeting'......'Every male among the priests may eat of it; it is most holy." Lev 6
Almost the entire OT sacrificial system revolved around animal sacrifice, and the meat was given to the Priests for food. God is also ok with eating meat.

But, to each their own. If people want to skip it, that is ok with me.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Thanks for your vegetarian "take" or opinion, on it Ben. Many people have fought and died for your right to have one and express it.

Now I think I'll just cook up an unborn chicken or two and part of a pig to go with it. ;)
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LOL
 
Cooter said:
And...here....we.....go!! (That's an MMA reference for those who don't follow)

Two quick points as to stewardship over animals and what that entails.
1) "The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." Gen 3 God is obviously ok with leather.
2) "The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tent of meeting'......'Every male among the priests may eat of it; it is most holy." Lev 6
Almost the entire OT sacrificial system revolved around animal sacrifice, and the meat was given to the Priests for food. God is also ok with eating meat.

But, to each their own. If people want to skip it, that is ok with me.
Click to expand...
I agree with you mostly, because of the Romans excerpt I quoted, above.

I might quibble a bit with the Leviticus quote, because I think Jesus' reforms make it unnecessary (though not wrong).
 
Timbeck2 said:
Thanks for your vegetarian "take" or opinion, on it Ben. Many people have fought and died for your right to have one and express it.

Now I think I'll just cook up an unborn chicken or two and part of a pig to go with it. ;)
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That's the one thing I really miss, even after 27 years of no meat: bacon!
 
If slaughtering pigs and eating the delicious, juicy sizzling bacon that comes out of their dead bodies is my fast ticket to Hell, then I better get to packin' my flame proof clothing, because even promises of Heaven won't get me to quit my sinning ways.
 
spiderweb said:
I agree with you mostly, because of the Romans excerpt I quoted, above.

I might quibble a bit with the Leviticus quote, because I think Jesus' reforms make it unnecessary (though not wrong).
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I'm genuinely curious as to how that is so. I've never heard any discussion along those lines or that put forth for a positive argument for vegetarianism. I'm guessing your thinking is along the lines of Jesus fulfilling the requirements of the Law? Or maybe He set in motion the reversing of the curse which will ultimately be fulfilled at the complete restoration of the Kingdom?
 
Cooter said:
And...here....we.....go!! (That's an MMA reference for those who don't follow)

Two quick points as to stewardship over animals and what that entails.
1) "The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them." Gen 3 God is obviously ok with leather.
2) "The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tent of meeting'......'Every male among the priests may eat of it; it is most holy." Lev 6
Almost the entire OT sacrificial system revolved around animal sacrifice, and the meat was given to the Priests for food. God is also ok with eating meat.

But, to each their own. If people want to skip it, that is ok with me.
Click to expand...
The laws of kashrut lay out what animals are kosher and which aren't. It'd be much shorter if the rule was just don't eat meat.
 
Then, of course, there's Genesis 9:
3Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
Click to expand...

Sounds like specific permission to me.
 
It sounds like there is a consensus building. We can all eat our dinners with a clean conscience!
 
I look at it this way. Species domesticated for food are highly successful, evolutionarily speaking. They have found an almost guaranteed safeguard against extinction. So I have no moral qualm whatsoever using them for food to continue my own species and in turn my descendants will ensure the continuation of their species. No problem with that. What I do have a moral problem with is allowing them to suffer deplorable living conditions. Hence I prefer pastured beef, true free range chicken, etc. I like my meat to have lived happy.

I also think hunting wild meat is fine with certain exceptions. African bushmeat for example (the great apes) - these guys are just way too cool to hunt to extinction, and NOT suitable for mass production as a food source.
 
I became a vegetarian due to economic factors, I was desperately poor. I continued due to social considerations, food animals are an environmental train wreck. Later health concerns motivated me, animal free diets tend to be lower in fat calories.





Now I just do it to pi$$ people off.
 
Cooter said:
I'm genuinely curious as to how that is so. I've never heard any discussion along those lines or that put forth for a positive argument for vegetarianism. I'm guessing your thinking is along the lines of Jesus fulfilling the requirements of the Law? Or maybe He set in motion the reversing of the curse which will ultimately be fulfilled at the complete restoration of the Kingdom?
Click to expand...

That's basically it. Jesus essentially reformed elements of the Law, saying that it should be based on the two Great Commandments (example: Luke 10:25-28). This reform recognized that humanity had advanced, but was still in great need of change. For example, no longer was animal sacrifice needed--we offer ourselves to God (Romans 12:1).

For me, the overall arc of the Bible message as well as from other religions is this storyline:

Started in Paradise --> Humanity's rejection of Paradise --> Saints sent to teach us how to return --> Return to Paradise.

One notes that there is no mention of meat-eating or any killing in Paradise stories across all religions. Thus, endeavoring to return to this state, and following Jesus' and other religion's leaders' command to love one another, I am trying to cultivate understanding and strength, and again, defer any judgment for ANYTHING to God.
 
steingar said:
I became a vegetarian due to economic factors, I was desperately poor. I continued due to social considerations, food animals are an environmental train wreck. Later health concerns motivated me, animal free diets tend to be lower in fat calories.





Now I just do it to pi$$ people off.
Click to expand...
That's essentially my story, except that I don't try to upset or even convince anyone to eat or not eat anything.
 
I hope people aren't missing that I agree that killing in war is NOT on the soldiers, and that they can have a clear conscience, because it is a form of self-defense.
 
spiderweb said:
That's essentially my story, except that I don't try to upset or even convince anyone to eat or not eat anything.
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We are in agreement. I get pretty militant about smoking, but not about a vegetarian diet. I do vociferously defend myself from detractors, though.
 
As a carnivore leaning omnivore, I love meat but I am ok with anyone who wants to be a vegetarian or vegan. It is a personal choice, period. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't care for those who have made a different choice than I have made to tell me I am wrong or to turn up their nose at what I eat.

I also think it is laughable that anyone wants to parse the words in a book of children's stories to help them make this personal choice. Just take ownership of your personal decision on what to eat or not to eat as bring your decision to make. Don't try to justify it or rationalize it with silly ideology.
 
I don't have a dog in the fight. My daughter (8) and I always discuss how we love animals and don't want them to be killed but we like eating meet.
I have offered to go vegeterian with her if she ever decides and wants a buddy that will share unique meals with her.

I like meet but I do sometimes look at my teeth and wonder if I was really designed to be a meat eater. Lots of grinding ability and they don't resemble a lot of other obvious meat eating creatures.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I like meet but I do sometimes look at my teeth and wonder if I was really designed to be a meat eater. Lots of grinding ability and they don't resemble a lot of other obvious meat eating creatures.
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Human dentition is actually poorly evolved (much like our appendages). As a result we can easily masticate a large variety of foodstuffs. Moreover, the human digestive tract is also wonderfully unspecialized, so we can successfully utilize a variety of foodstuffs. Making arguments like this based on our biology is at best a loosing proposition.
 
steingar said:
Human dentition is actually poorly evolved (much like our appendages). As a result we can easily masticate a large variety of foodstuffs. Moreover, the human digestive tract is also wonderfully unspecialized, so we can successfully utilize a variety of foodstuffs. Making arguments like this based on our biology is at best a loosing proposition.
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I tend to look mostly at what we ate as a species when homo sapiens were evolving in the first place. Of course, some of this does vary depending on region, as different regions had different food sources readily available. We evolved around eating those things, which were an omnivorous diet.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I tend to look mostly at what we ate as a species when homo sapiens were evolving in the first place. Of course, some of this does vary depending on region, as different regions had different food sources readily available. We evolved around eating those things, which were an omnivorous diet.
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First, our dentition evolved in Africa along with the rest of us. Humans haven't been in other parts of the world for sufficient time for evolutionary change of that nature. My guess is our teeth are actually designed for plant based foods. It wood explain all the surface area in our molars and our long digestive tract. Moreover, it is thought that our earliest hominid censors were really apes that evolved to walk upright as Africa dried out. Even that bit of evolution is far from complete, we don't have gravitoportal articular skeletons, which is why so many people have back problems.

But like I said, we can successfully utilize a variety of foodstuffs. The Biological arguments bear no weight whatsoever.
 
If God wanted to me to be a vegetarian, he wouldn't have given me incisors.
 
steingar said:
Even that bit of evolution is far from complete, we don't have gravitoportal articular skeletons, which is why so many people have back problems.
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Also with better nutrition we tend to be larger in size than our ancestors. Back problems are more common for taller people. Our skeletal structure has gotten bigger with better nutrition, but didn't necessarily evolve to correctly support that larger size. It's like taking an engine and just making a 125% scale version of that engine. It'll still work, but the dimensions and clearances won't be ideal.
 
SkyDog58 said:
As a carnivore leaning omnivore, I love meat but I am ok with anyone who wants to be a vegetarian or vegan. It is a personal choice, period. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't care for those who have made a different choice than I have made to tell me I am wrong or to turn up their nose at what I eat.

I also think it is laughable that anyone wants to parse the words in a book of children's stories to help them make this personal choice. Just take ownership of your personal decision on what to eat or not to eat as bring your decision to make. Don't try to justify it or rationalize it with silly ideology.
Click to expand...
Watch out: people take religion seriously and may not appreciate it being called "silly ideology" and "children's stories."
 
And after reading this, I am off to Grandpa's Grill, home of the best 1/2 pound burger in Gallup.

Which isn't saying much....
 
steingar said:
First, our dentition evolved in Africa along with the rest of us. Humans haven't been in other parts of the world for sufficient time for evolutionary change of that nature. My guess is our teeth are actually designed for plant based foods. It wood explain all the surface area in our molars and our long digestive tract. Moreover, it is thought that our earliest hominid censors were really apes that evolved to walk upright as Africa dried out. Even that bit of evolution is far from complete, we don't have gravitoportal articular skeletons, which is why so many people have back problems.

But like I said, we can successfully utilize a variety of foodstuffs. The Biological arguments bear no weight whatsoever.
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Very interesting!
 
spiderweb said:
I hope people aren't missing that I agree that killing in war is NOT on the soldiers, and that they can have a clear conscience, because it is a form of self-defense.
Click to expand...

Does that go for both sides of the conflict, or does it only cover the righteous American "Soldiers" fighting for mom, apple pie and Coca-Cola?
 
steingar said:
First, our dentition evolved in Africa along with the rest of us. Humans haven't been in other parts of the world for sufficient time for evolutionary change of that nature. My guess is our teeth are actually designed for plant based foods. It wood explain all the surface area in our molars and our long digestive tract. Moreover, it is thought that our earliest hominid censors were really apes that evolved to walk upright as Africa dried out. Even that bit of evolution is far from complete, we don't have gravitoportal articular skeletons, which is why so many people have back problems.

But like I said, we can successfully utilize a variety of foodstuffs. The Biological arguments bear no weight whatsoever.
Click to expand...

Biology probably does but it has yet to be conclusively determined. It is very possible that the "sudden" (in evolutionary terms) explosive growth of our brain was fueled by meat and could not have occurred without meat being a daily part of our diet (not, as with the chimpanzee, the occasional monkey).
 
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