I've had the briefer omit pertinent notams even when I specifically asked for them. Get the briefing from the live guy if you want, but you'd best follow it up with other sources if available.
FAA seems to encourage self weather/pre flight briefings
- Thread starter Walboy
- Start date
Kenny Phillips
Final Approach
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2018
- Messages
- 5,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Kenny Phillips
As soon as DUATS was up and running, I stopped calling.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Probably not. If
No it didn’t. There are still places - and I personally hope that there continue to be places, where my iPad doesn’t have signal but I can go get a briefing on a landline. Same as I don’t want to be told that the 1943 Taylorcraft is grounded unless I install ADS-B.
MuseChaser
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2019
- Messages
- 2,038
- Display Name
Display name:
MuseChaser
Maybe a bit more like.... I could walk outside and take a look at the sky, or I could do that and then call an experienced professional who looks at and interprets the sky for a living and get a second opinion/confirmation of my observations and interpretations. I don't call for every flight, but when I'm planning a longer trip or there's something I'd like to clarify, I call and I'm grateful for that ability.
That's fair. I don't fly professionally, so if I'm not certain of the weather, I just don't go, so there's really no benefit to me.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
We do have to fly professionally and there are some fairly sparse areas even in Texas. Take the stretch between Snyder and Wichita Falls (that we just flew) for instance - very few reporting stations and airports. Gotta be able to get a good "big picture" call on the weather.
Tantalum
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2017
- Messages
- 9,250
- Display Name
Display name:
San_Diego_Pilot
So who gets the money back we're going to save the FAA?
Mind you, I don't mind talking to an individual briefer, mainly for the following reasons:
-it validates whatever weather flight planning I did with Foreflight, etc.
-it is "free"
-if there is some additional NOTAM I may have missed the extra 5-10 minutes on the phone is worth it to me
EXACTLY. Planning a flight at 17K and you're seeing reports of moderate icing, numerous scattered, broken, and OVC cloud layers, etc., it is well worth the extra time to talk to someone
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
So how much less tax will I enjoy on ticket prices, fuel, etc for this DECREASE in SERVICE from my government?
midwestpa24
Final Approach
You'll never see a decrease in taxes, but we can at least hope the money is redirected to a better purpose than keeping an out of date service in operation for sentimental reasons. That is half the reason for inefficiency with the FAA, they can't shut down a 60 year old system for a new one without divine intervention.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 20,309
- Display Name
Display name:
James331
but be sure to let us all know when you figure it out, then write your congressman
Why would you write them?
You don’t actually think they care do you?
And I’d HIGHLY doubt there will be any refund for the reduction of services rendered.
You must be new here!
welcome to big gov, may your chains rest lightly
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,597
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Personally I think Leidos flight services needs to go bye bye completely. I grew up around Flight Service Stations. Dad worked FSS and brother worked AFSS. During their time, it was an important service and in the case of Dad, it was absolutely crucial. Today, unless you’re not confident in your weather guessing / NOTAM dissecting as a pilot, or you’re an old dude that doesn’t get the internet, no need for a briefer. I also prefer ForeFlight, AWC and Weathermiester over 1800wxbrief any day.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,597
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
I’m not sure they lead the way in getting weather briefs though. I used to have to use a military weather forecaster either face to face or internet and then have proof of said forecast. Then, it became void 1+30 minutes later. Required to file a flight plan for most flights as well. The military has a way of adding unnecessary red tape in everything they do.
dtuuri
Final Approach
It's going to be an interesting adaptation for me soon. Although I stay as current as possible through participation in this forum, it's been years since I flew on a daily basis and interfaced with FSS or DUATS. My typical day at work as a corporate pilot started by showing up 30 to 45 minutes prior to takeoff, calling FSS on the landline and filing, say, three IFR flight plans and writing down the salient points of the ensuing weather briefing. No thought given to the weather the night before or before leaving for the hangar in the morning. The few times I played with DUATS I came to the conclusion it was a colossal waste of time, not to mention the trees sacrificed to make the paper the plain language readout was printed on. I'd rather talk to even a rookie briefer than hunt around for information myself on a website using a keyboard and mouse and looking up unfamiliar abbreviations. If I can't plan, file three IFRs and get briefed in less than 45 minutes from scratch — it'll be just another example of the world gone to he11, to me.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2017
- Messages
- 2,537
- Display Name
Display name:
Hang 4
Go on to the new https://www.1800wxbrief.com/ site and brief a flight plan. I was a skeptic based on earlier experiences. Used it everyday while getting my IFR and I have to say it works well. Let's you skip through the dumb stuff like not flying through North Korean airspace and focus on the salient points like what altitude has ice. It forces you to click through everything, but you can choose what to focus on or skim. I briefed my DPE on a 400 mile XC using my laptop in about 10 minutes, and got basically no other questions on flight planning. Not sure why all the negative reactions. It's like using a ATM vs a teller. You get the money either way, just more useful with the graphic view.
To give a specific example, let's say there is a strong cold front coming through in the next 24 hours. If you brief a flight well before it's passage, it might not come up. On the other hand, if you go through the computer briefing, with all those nasty graphics, you can see the cold front coming and realize that you either need to get out at the planned time or you might not want to go at all if you get delayed.
I've called for partial brief 3 times when I had a specific question. Once I got "it's likely ok to go" when I was going solo to my PP practical and there was some rain in the area. That was just the boost I needed and the flight was uneventful. One other time he pretty much told me what I knew already, pop up showers around, hard to know exactly where they will be. The last call was looking for a specific forecast of the tops of a layer between Atlanta and Florida. I was hoping to fly over it, but looking for a second opinion on the tops. Got a "not recommended for VFR as I would be flying between layers. I ended up going anyways as there were plenty of bail out options. It ended up the upper layer was thin cirrus at 20k+ and the layer I wanted to go over was topped at about 7k. Total non-event and mostly over the Okefenokee swamp where landing options are non-existent. i get the sense that the briefers are not at the same level as they used to be, but rather looking at the same thing I am looking at.
To give a specific example, let's say there is a strong cold front coming through in the next 24 hours. If you brief a flight well before it's passage, it might not come up. On the other hand, if you go through the computer briefing, with all those nasty graphics, you can see the cold front coming and realize that you either need to get out at the planned time or you might not want to go at all if you get delayed.
I've called for partial brief 3 times when I had a specific question. Once I got "it's likely ok to go" when I was going solo to my PP practical and there was some rain in the area. That was just the boost I needed and the flight was uneventful. One other time he pretty much told me what I knew already, pop up showers around, hard to know exactly where they will be. The last call was looking for a specific forecast of the tops of a layer between Atlanta and Florida. I was hoping to fly over it, but looking for a second opinion on the tops. Got a "not recommended for VFR as I would be flying between layers. I ended up going anyways as there were plenty of bail out options. It ended up the upper layer was thin cirrus at 20k+ and the layer I wanted to go over was topped at about 7k. Total non-event and mostly over the Okefenokee swamp where landing options are non-existent. i get the sense that the briefers are not at the same level as they used to be, but rather looking at the same thing I am looking at.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,597
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Once upon a time you could talk to a briefer face-to-face. Sometimes the best go/no-go information was the look in the briefer's eye.
That pic brings back memories. I remember visiting my Dad at work (FSS) in the 70s, they all had slacks, button collared shirt, pocket protector and tie. When he retired, they were just collared polo shirts and slacks. Last year went to visit my brother at his tower. Baseball caps, goatees and blue jeans with holes in them.
Man times have changed.
Last edited:
Believe it or not, there are places where you can't get an Internet connection. I drove through one of them last Sunday.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,597
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
No internet but you had cell service?
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
You do realize the fixed federal excise tax on fuel hasn’t increased in a very long time and your federal income taxes were reduced 3 years ago?
Everyone likes small govt and lower taxes, but doesn’t want less services. Life doesn’t work like that.
donjohnston
Pattern Altitude
I think it's only a matter of time before every briefer on the phone is named "Steve" or "Mark" and has an Indian accent you can hardly understand. And when you ask where they are located they say "Florida".
There are bunches of ways to gather information. I miss being able to talk with an informed briefer who is familiar with local conditions and trends, especially when things are iffy. In 121 you could always mull things over with your dispatcher.
Part 91 it would be great to have something similar but those days are gone. Of course even when that capability was available not everyone took advantage of it. The crew at the FSS back home were great professionals, always helpful, and enjoyed being mentors. They could translate the raw info in a way that helped you see and understand.
Part 91 it would be great to have something similar but those days are gone. Of course even when that capability was available not everyone took advantage of it. The crew at the FSS back home were great professionals, always helpful, and enjoyed being mentors. They could translate the raw info in a way that helped you see and understand.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
No, but sometimes there is a landline. Mountainous areas are frequently like that, and some rural spots. I've also landed at airports (within the month) in Texas where I could get cell phone signal but no data.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,597
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Ok, so there’s a landline but no dial up internet?
Tantalum
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2017
- Messages
- 9,250
- Display Name
Display name:
San_Diego_Pilot
You know a frog will jump out if you toss it in
the services I do get that I did not ask for or need are massive surveillance programs and a foreign policy that's going to make me a target in many places that I travel outside of the US
Trust me, the gov has plenty of waste, much of what they do is not a service to you or I.. the IRS is a service we pay for that costs $12B to run
I get taxes are important, but there is an inordinate amount of inefficiency, frustration with that inefficiency is warranted
If they can reduce the cost of a service they provide by orders of magnitude.. then is it not fair to see that manifest elsewhere?
unfortunately the services that benefit me and the general populace the most, like good education and responsible law enforcement, with access to competent healthcare, are either dramatically underfunded, corrupt, or simply unavailable
the services I do get that I did not ask for or need are massive surveillance programs and a foreign policy that's going to make me a target in many places that I travel outside of the US
Trust me, the gov has plenty of waste, much of what they do is not a service to you or I.. the IRS is a service we pay for that costs $12B to run
I get taxes are important, but there is an inordinate amount of inefficiency, frustration with that inefficiency is warranted
If they can reduce the cost of a service they provide by orders of magnitude.. then is it not fair to see that manifest elsewhere?
Weekend Warrior
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2019
- Messages
- 425
- Display Name
Display name:
Mr Madman
Could someone please explain: why the hell does 1800wxbrief.com require such stringent passwords? Are they afraid hackers are going to steal my weather briefings?
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Or why you can’t use a previous password.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
One airport there wasn't even a landline I could find and I could only get one bar of signal and no data. It's a real issue if you want / need a briefing, and like the old VOR system and the unfortunate closure of LORAN, I would prefer some legacy stuff to be left in place in the case of mass internet disruptions. Especially when you are legally required to get a briefing before you fly. Hate on the old system all you like, I want redundancy in anything the government REQUIRES me to obtain and can theoretically punish me for not obtaining in the event of a non-related event such as a mechanical failure of my airplane.
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2017
- Messages
- 3,912
- Location
- hopefully not at work
- Display Name
Display name:
Meet the Fokkers
Most likely to protect any filed flight plans from terrorists or other bad actors.
I did not.
Since the reg says all "available" information, I suppose one could argue that the information wasn't available under the circumstances, and therefore not legally required.
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 7,838
- Location
- Marietta, GA
- Display Name
Display name:
Drake the Outlaw
My reality is that it is ~45 minutes from my chair at the house to the airport. Add another 15-30 minutes for preflight, and it is often an hour between my last detailed weather info and the start of my flight. So I call the FSS when I'm boarding the airplane. I genuinely believe a guy on the phone can give me more information (a better synopsis and more pertinent details) than I would be able to process on the little screen on my phone.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,597
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Well technically you’re not required to get a briefing. There’s actually no definition of what meets a “legal weather briefing” either. Only to get “weather reports and forecasts.” If your only option is dial phone then yes, you will need humans at Leidos manning the phones.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
For IFR? Ya gotta have a forecast, bro!Since the reg says all "available" information, I suppose one could argue that the information wasn't available under the circumstances, and therefore not legally required.
It's also great to listen to a briefer during the drive to the airport. Tell me you aren't buried nose in your screen during that drive...
Well technically this is what you're required to do. Whether you call it a briefing or not is your choice.
§91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—
(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;
(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:
(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and
(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.
Tantalum
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2017
- Messages
- 9,250
- Display Name
Display name:
San_Diego_Pilot
..it is a small legal CYA as well, should anything go south there is a record that you made a reasonable effort to "become familiar with all available information concerning that flight" .. something that may be hard to prove without that phone call, especially if your flight planning consistent of going to weather.comWell technically this is what you're required to do. Whether you call it a briefing or not is your choice.
§91.103 Preflight action.
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—
(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;
(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:
(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and
(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.
I don't always call a briefer, but for locally filed flights I do appreciate the emails Foreflight sends as it's a good review of all pertinent info, and should anything go south there is at least some proof that I at least attempted to become familiar
RyanShort1
Final Approach
AND CYA is definitely worth something. A student of mine did something pretty dumb once upon a time, and one of the things that actually proved that was my recorded call to FSS... I was specific on the briefing that it was for a student flight and what the intentions of the flight were and that's probably the only reason the FAA inspector believed me instead of nailing me.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
No, available where there is DATA signal. There are places with cell phone signal and no data. BTDT last week.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,597
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
I think it’s a good idea to have some sort of proof of obtaining the weather but that doesn’t necessarily mean the FAA won’t take the pilot’s word for it. Especially if the incident has nothing to do with weather. On the flip side of that, even if you have proof of obtaining weather reports and forecasts, that doesn’t make you immune from legal action either. Either way, my point was that there is no definition of a legal weather brief.
https://support.foreflight.com/hc/e...-for-FAR-Part-91-operations-?mobile_site=true
https://support.foreflight.com/hc/e...-for-FAR-Part-91-operations-?mobile_site=true
Years ago I worked for the US Army. It was in the middle of the Reagan era and we got a lot of funding. On a bad year, I'd buy something like $2MM worth of computers. My last year, I signed my name to a $25MM CRAY 2 procurement.
A lot of our funding came through a program called QRIP (or as we called it QRipOff). Something like QUICK RETURN ON INVESTMENT PROGRAM. We had to show that, let's say, that with a new, faster computer we would get things done in less time, which would mean that we would save a fraction of our salaries. Of course, the fallacy was that nobody gave any of our salaries back or had any reduction in force. We'd do the same justification with the same scientists' salaries the next year as well.
A lot of our funding came through a program called QRIP (or as we called it QRipOff). Something like QUICK RETURN ON INVESTMENT PROGRAM. We had to show that, let's say, that with a new, faster computer we would get things done in less time, which would mean that we would save a fraction of our salaries. Of course, the fallacy was that nobody gave any of our salaries back or had any reduction in force. We'd do the same justification with the same scientists' salaries the next year as well.
I dont really get the impression that anyone here is really advocating for the absolute dismantling of the phone service. I think we're all just acknowledging that its not used by many for many reasons (accuracy, ease of use, efficiency, etc) and that its days are numbered. There are of course edge cases like the ones you've specified here where one has to use the phone service as alternative means of obtaining the weather are not available but in the vast majority of cases, the online briefing methods are the defacto standard today.
Calling the briefer an "experienced professional who looks at and interprets the sky for a living" is probably a stretch. Dont get me wrong, there are varying levels of proficiency and knowledge but these guys aren't necessarily hired on the basis of their weather knowledge. Maybe it was true at one point in time but today, most of them are simply reading back the same information that is available to you directly. Even among the more experienced where there might be some ability to interpret that information (which, from what I understand, is frowned upon) the likelihood of them "looking at the sky" in forming that opinion is likely very small.