Egregious FBO charges

dans2992 said:
It’s not very secure. Unmanned after hours and the fence is… laughable.

1 hour in one direction, I can park for $10 a night and 1 hour (closer to the major city) there is a 24/7 FBO that charges zero handling/ramp. Perhaps I’ll patronize those in the future. But, yeah given that the “going rate” in the area is $0, and $10…. I think $385 is a bit uncalled for.

Sure, the aircraft is expensive, but it takes up about the same ramp space as a DA40, or C182.

Don’t get your panties in a bunch, I’ll pay the fee, because I did park there, but…. I’m not sure how this meets the “reasonable” price requirements of the grant assurance given that it’s literal orders of magnitude greater than other local providers.
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I teach post flight procedures in a private pilot ground school. I can send you the slides since you don’t seem to know FBOs charge fees and parking the plane your self doesn’t relieve you of paying.
 
One benefit of having a FBO on field with services might be increased air traffic numbers for some airports, if reasonable. But in this case $385 is stupid, and has quite the opposite effect obviously.

That's 1 to 3 times an entire month of hangar rent at a lot of places...for one night, outside, providing no service or effort (or liability I'm assuming) whatsoever. Seems crazy to me.

But for fun, I'm inclined to see about leasing a bridge close by, set up a porta-potty, coffee station, and a toll booth.

And some CBD goods of course.
 
So, I have my own tale of egregious fees.

I fly my Cessna to a small class-D airport in a fancy area that gets a lot of jet traffic. There is only one place to park, at Atlantic. I have been charged ridiculous fees for parking there and walking through the building - I never need services. It drives me crazy because it’s a public airport, there is no where else to park, I use no services, and then Atlantic gets to charge me for it?

Well… I did some research and it’s a community that I know well so I managed to track down the airport manager and basically said “look, it’s a public airport, you’re required to provide public parking, what is the story”?

After some back and forth, it turns out that there *is* some public parking, but the airport manager had to send me a satellite image of the airport with the two “public” spots circled. No lines, no signs identifying them as such - and this is the kicker - no way to access them (without either going through Atlantic and getting an escort (fees) or having airport credentials, which is kind of beside the point for transient aircraft). On top of all that, reportedly, a major portion of the fees that Atlantic collects are fees mandated by the city, which is kind of crazy to me - it’s not like the city could afford to put in the airport, that’s federal money that did that! And, best of all, even if you managed to use these “public”, landlocked spaces, you’d still be required to pay the city fees.

Yes, I know these are first world problems. But that’s only sort of true. At the margin, we are all stung by unexpected costs, and public airports are supposed to be a public good, not minor fiefdoms that Atlantic is allowed to exclusively lease, exclusively sell fuel to, and exclusively exploit in monopolistic fashion, or for municipal governments to use to fill their coffers when it’s not even their property.

In summary, the whole thing stinks.
 
Fees are a comin'
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Florida Airports Lining Up To Impose New Fees

New airport fees could be coming to several Florida airports, with invoices autogenerated using ADS-B data.
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There are multiple issues in this thread from stratified fees to 3rd parties keeping credit card data to charging said credit card, etc. The fee structures based on fuel type have been discussed in the past here on this forum. When I hear about jet-a users being charged significantly higher rates I can't help but compare it to the politicians saying pay your fair share. That argument really bugs me as those targeted are usually already paying significantly more on a percentage of income. When I consider upgrading to a Lancair IVPT, I keep coming back to the tales I hear of exorbitant fees just because it is a jet-a burner. Knowing I would get so ****ed off being charged like that, I just couldn't buy one of those planes for that reason alone. Seems to me if they just want to extract more form the jet-a burner, just raise the price of jet-a.
 
AA5Bman said:
it’s not like the city could afford to put in the airport, that’s federal money that did that!
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Are you saying the Feds put up 100% of the money for construction and maintenance of the airport?
 
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Salty said:
It should be since it's a prerequisite. You can't skip out on a payment that you were not notified was necessary. Kinda obvious.
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The OP indicated he knew payment would be expected, so why would a sign be necessary?

But the point of my question really revolves around the psychic abilities that are being used as arguments in this thread.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The OP indicated he knew payment would be expected, so why would a sign be necessary?
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No he didn't. I know you will argue that he did. But he in fact did not.
 
MauleSkinner said:
No, I’m not going to argue that he did, because that encroaches too closely on the psychic argument.
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Good. I will grant that he had good reason to believe he did.
 
Clip4 said:
Honestly, you fly a Meridan worth $2 million that burns $3.50 a minute in fuel and $385 to park on a secured ramp overnight is egregious?
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This is an utterly toxic view and is part of what's killing general aviation. The fact that the guy can afford to own and fly a fancy airplane does not make $385 a reasonable fee. This idea that outrageous fees and pricing is ok because the "rich airplane owners" can afford it is just f'd up.
 
On a related issue, the information about Vector providing a service to track down aircraft/owners and collect fees reminds me of ATC services in the United Kingdom. Pilots are charged ala carte for services provided. Shoot an approach, ka ching. Touch and go, ka ching. File a flight plan, ka ching. Want flight following, ka ching. Coming soon.
 
Lindberg said:
Imagine buying groceries and then days later finding that in addition to your groceries, the store had billed your card $200 for parking in it's parking lot.

Or worse, you go to the donut shop and the grocery store charges you $200 for parking because "it owns all the parking in the strip mall."
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Another example:

People like to park under the shade of my Magnolia tree. It's a publicly-owned street, so no problem. It would be great if I could lease that strip of pavement from the city and then charge people $385 for parking there without any advance notice.
 
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Palmpilot said:
Another example:

People like to park under the shade of my Magnolia tree. It's a publicly-owned street, so no problem. It would be great if I could lease that strip of pavement from the city and then charge people $385 for parking there without without any advance notice.
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Even better if you could charge $40 for a minivan, $100 for a Corvette, and $400 for a Porsche or delivery truck.
 
Palmpilot said:
Another example:

People like to park under the shade of my Magnolia tree. It's a publicly-owned street, so no problem. It would be great if I could lease that strip of pavement from the city and then charge people $385 for parking there without without any advance notice.
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And if you had guidance from the Feds authorizing the city to lease you that strip of pavement, it would be pretty easy to do.
 
Do any of you guys defending this behavior ever ask yourselves why these companies don't just post the rates where it's easy to see? I can help with the answer if you're struggling with it.
 
Salty said:
Do any of you guys defending this behavior ever ask yourselves why these companies don't just post the rates where it's easy to see? I can help with the answer if you're struggling with it.
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It's obviously because they don't want everyone to know how reasonable they are.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Please explain to me how you know what they’re thinking.
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When they submitted a charge to his credit card, they pretty much made it clear that they were thinking there was a reasonable expectation that he would pay. Unless you're suggesting that they were just stealing from him. That could support your statement for sure.
 
AA5Bman said:
- it’s not like the city could afford to put in the airport, that’s federal money that did that!

for municipal governments to use to fill their coffers when it’s not even their property.
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Two points from AA5's post I'd like to comment on.

1. Yes the FAA provides infrastructure grants to airports. While those grants cover a large portion of the cost, there is always a local match, and a limit on how much money an airport can get. The FAA provides $0 to fund the operation and maintenance of the airport. Say it with me, $0. The utility bills, staffing, mowing, plowing snow, replacing light bulbs, painting markings, etc., all local funded.

2. It is a violation of Grant Assurances for airport revenue to be diverted from the airport. The Municipal Government can't touch that money. Even if the airport makes a profit, which few actually do, that money has to stay on the airport. Most airports actually depend on receiving money from the local government to fund at least part their operations.

And BTW, most airports are government owned and operated. Meaning the Airport Manager and staff are city/county employees. Pay and benefits may not be bad, but no one in local government is getting rich. Doesn't matter how much money the airport makes, the staff is on a municipal pay scale. There is no profit sharing, no bonuses, not even a Christmas ham.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Two points from AA5's post I'd like to comment on.

1. Yes the FAA provides infrastructure grants to airports. While those grants cover a large portion of the cost, there is always a local match, and a limit on how much money an airport can get. The FAA provides $0 to fund the operation and maintenance of the airport. Say it with me, $0. The utility bills, staffing, mowing, plowing snow, replacing light bulbs, painting markings, etc., all local funded.

2. It is a violation of Grant Assurances for airport revenue to be diverted from the airport. The Municipal Government can't touch that money. Even if the airport makes a profit, which few actually do, that money has to stay on the airport. Most airports actually depend on receiving money from the local government to fund at least part their operations.

And BTW, most airports are government owned and operated. Meaning the Airport Manager and staff are city/county employees. Pay and benefits may not be bad, but no one in local government is getting rich. Doesn't matter how much money the airport makes, the staff is on a municipal pay scale. There is no profit sharing, no bonuses, not even a Christmas ham.
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The Federal Aviation Administration requires airports receiving grants to be as self-sustaining as possible, and they receive little or no direct taxpayer support. Or in other words, the FAA isn’t giving grant money to an airport that will be in financial problems if the politics change.
 
RyanB said:
Welcome to a capitalist society. I don’t think anybody here is arguing against outrageous fees. My point is that many of you seem to believe that you should be able to park where you want free of charge and if you don’t like the price, than you should try to dispute it with your bank and charge it back to the business - which is an absolute entitled way of thought that I simply didn’t believe many of you had.

Do you know the best way to boycott outrageous fees? Simply don’t return.

Give me an example. Being told facility fees over the phone is still being transparent and I’ve never had an FBO refuse to do so, if I cannot find them posted online.
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Some of the advantages of a capitalist society go out the window when there's a monopoly, which is what you have when the sole transient parking area at at airport is leased to a single private-sector entity.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Is he claiming Sovereign Citizen status?
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"Sovereign citizens" are generally at odds with governmental entities like police and courts. FBOs are a private-sector entities, which don't usually have a right to your money without agreement in advance.
 
bradg33 said:
This is an utterly toxic view and is part of what's killing general aviation. The fact that the guy can afford to own and fly a fancy airplane does not make $385 a reasonable fee. This idea that outrageous fees and pricing is ok because the "rich airplane owners" can afford it is just f'd up.
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I've got an idea: Let's price the middle class out of aviation. Who cares if the airlines won't be able to find experienced pilots to hire twenty years from now?
 
Palmpilot said:
I've got an idea: Let's price the middle class out of aviation. Who cares if the airlines won't be able to find experienced pilots to hire twenty years from now?
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hey that works... in 20 years no one will need to risk flying, we'll just take road trips with all those self-driving electric vehicles.
 
Witmo said:
On a related issue, the information about Vector providing a service to track down aircraft/owners and collect fees reminds me of ATC services in the United Kingdom. Pilots are charged ala carte for services provided. Shoot an approach, ka ching. Touch and go, ka ching. File a flight plan, ka ching. Want flight following, ka ching. Coming soon.
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Makes me wonder how many pilots over there are just flyin IFR in the soup not talking to anyone with their transponders off, flying the own nav on approaches.
 
Palmpilot said:
Some of the advantages of a capitalist society go out the window when there's a monopoly, which is what you have when the sole transient parking area at at airport is leased to a single private-sector entity.
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Here you go. Getting rich is at your finger tips.


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FBO Redevelopment Project

The Santa Barbara Airport currently has two FBO's (Fixed Based Operators): Atlantic Aviation and Signature Flight Support. These FBO's provide management services to the general aviation community and provide fueling services to the general, charter, and commercial aviation industries. The FBO...
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Lindberg said:
Please explain how someone I have no agreement with has a reasonable expectation that I will pay them.
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If someone uses your open hangar or tie down spot, remember it is a public airport and you never told them they couldn’t use it or there would be a charge.

You have no reasonable expectations and just because you paid the airport rent for those items doesn’t matter.
 
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Clip4 said:
I don’t know". If someone comes your and uses your open hangar or tie down spot, remember it is a public airport and you never told them they couldn’t use it or there would be a charge.
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Good point, maybe, BUT:

If you pull into an urban public multi-story garage and park in an empty marked spot that doesn’t have any signage or notice of fees, nor any sort of access gate, tickets or payment system, do you expect to have your bank account debited for a parking fee that you had no notice of? Sure, if you have to grab a ticket or drive through an automated gate, or even if there is a big sign stating parking rates at the entrance….but none of those are present in this situation.

Yes, if you pull into someone’s detached garage your comparison makes sense….but that’s not a reasonable comparison to open, public parking without any signage to indicate price, payment, or process.

I hate to ever support the idea of regulation, but it seems reasonable that there be a requirement to post rates and payment methods visibly if a public airport intends to charge for landing and/or parking. IMO, I would also suggest a legal requirement to waive any and all such fees in the case of a declared emergency.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I would also suggest a legal requirement to waive any and all such fees in the case of a declared emergency.
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100%. The one time i felt the most ripped off was when i landed at an airport i didn’t want to land at. I had to land there due to a malfunction. That’s when they tried charging me the “door opening fee”. On the other extreme, I once landed at Williston, ND and before leaving i noticed the fuel selector was leaking. The FBO’s mechanic fixed it (obviously they charged me for it) but they also kept the plane in the heated hangar free of charge for a whole week while I continued on to our vacation by car. Nice FBO vs. rip off FBO.
 
Flight planning starts on a ramp and ends on a ramp. If your planing is the flight starts at the runway hold line you are a rookie. So if are a pilot who taxis onto any FBO ramp and doesn’t know the applicable fees before doing so, you now know why you are surprised by the fees.

And no, the FBO should not have to waive fees because you had an emergency. It’s possible your plane may be on their ramp for months if the engine ate a piston. You are going have to negociate those charges or take the wings off and get the plane off their ramp.
 
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