Egregious FBO charges

[Anthem]

Me neither. But then again most don't charge a fee for parking away from the main ramp and not using any services.

I dont think OP parked "away from the main ramp". . if they did - the FBO wouldnt even know about it or thought to charge. Im willing to bet that the OP clearly knew they were parking on the ramp at an FBO. Claiming you didnt know is completely different than clearly you didnt - as the assertion is more - clearly I did know and I was hoping to get away with it.

I don't think you should be charging a fee if you aren't posting it clearly online, in your business, and on the ramp where the "services" would be provided. The only reason not to do so is to trick people into owing your fee. If it were posted, it could be avoided and we wouldn't be complaining.

You go in to a restaurant and you dont know prices until you ask someone. Same here. Sometimes its posted online, sometimes on the door/window. Sometimes it isnt. They didnt trick anyone in to owing a fee - as the OP already has a card on file and has been there before and paid it. The only "trick" being played (or attempted) is that he was hoping to get out of there without going to the front desk after being on their ramp. If you want to try and pull this off, go and park it where they have hangars and maybe part it out of the way and not blocking anyone. That might be more successful than parking at an fbo and hoping not to be charged because you never checked in.

 

[Tusayan]

The issue is that you want to treat this outside of the vacuum and leverage existing people that have a cost, for free - namely FBO staff. Lets work the numbers then - you will have to have a minimum of two people to work a separate security gate. The "ramp" that you now propose probably cant be used for renting to others as well. Since thats not a known cost we'll skip that for now. Assume 8k a month for two(and partial 3rd) people to be staffed their at all times to handle whatever traffic there is to let people out and let people in. You can argue a code key gate, but that isnt happening at any class B/C/D airports. So 8k a month for how many planes ? we're talking planes who arent going to fuel, or use the bathrooms. Because all of those will be subject to ramp/fuel fees at the fbo or you have to run a self service fuel farm. All this for how many "exceptions" that want no service and in/out access a day ? Perhaps many days that number is 0. Even at 5 a day, you're talking $50+ for cost recovery assuming that its a consistent 5 a day. You'll have to factor in rain days with no traffic and what not but yet you still have to pay the gate security staff.

You'll argue - well we can maybe piggy back this on to TSA. Good luck getting anyone from TSA to do it. Or existing airport personnel. . . Good luck there. Thats the whole point of them negotiating an FBO lease. So the entire premise of "reasonable" doesnt work in the math to do this.

And the irony of all this is that in most places - the fees ARE reasonable for piston aircraft. Even in most class B airports, ALL piston aircraft are for all intents and purposes being subsidized by the jet-a guys. Even if generally the turbine guys can "handle" the charges - the reality is that they are paying way more than their fair share compared to a piston regardless of the metric you use (sq footage, whatever). So anyone making the argument from a piston perspective is way way off base as compared to the jet-a crowd. Now if you're arguing for the jet-a crowd - Im sure they appreciate your concern. . lol

I’m based at a public 600 operations/day airport with two public parking ramps that have likely 200 aircraft capacity. They are well used, few people in actuality need the services of an FBO. Access to public parking is by gate code, the usual radio frequency method, and payment is cash into a box. There is a light rail station across the street and Uber is easy.

Fuel is available from two different providers/trucks on the field, and two self serve pumps. Extra pricing for the truck pays for the drivers, and they deliver anywhere on the field.

There is also one large full service FBO for those who need it, and it has lots of people and plenty of business from companies and others interested in paying for what they want to buy, versus having other transient aircraft who have no interest subsidize them. It’s on the other side of the airport from public parking with secure entry, nobody wanders by to use the bathroom. I buzz in and get picked up there by my employers jet when making business trips. It all works fine. Anybody who doesn’t want to use the FBO or enter its ground leasehold doesn’t, no FBO monopoly, and this is most people.

 

[Anthem]

I’m based at a public 600 operations/day airport with two public parking ramps that have likely 200 aircraft capacity. They are well used, few people in actuality need the services of an FBO. Access is by gate code, the usual radio frequency method. There is also one large full service FBO for those who need it, and it has lots of people and plenty of business from companies and others interested in paying for it. I get picked up there by my employers jet when making business trips. It all works fine, and anybody who doesn’t want to use FBO doesn’t - which is most people.

Awesome. Lets see if this works at BNA. . . . even better - lets do this at LGA. . .. good luck with that one.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If it were posted, it could be avoided and we wouldn't be complaining.

Now that’s funny right there!

 

[Bob Noel]

You go in to a restaurant and you dont know prices until you ask someone.

But do they bill you if you don't order anything?

I just had dental surgery. They told me the costs before I had the procedure.

 

[Anthem]

But do they bill you if you don't order anything?

I just had dental surgery. They told me the costs before I had the procedure.

But he did. he parked on their ramp. thats the "product". the ramp is leased to the FBO where they pay for the privilege of renting it out.

otherwise go park where the hangars are and dont block anyone.

 

[Lindberg]

I have… car actually towed. Cahoots with tow company, but that’s a different thread.

Which is illegal in my state.

What does that have to do with my post? I don’t see the connection.

Why would it make a difference whether you're parking a car or an airplane?

 

[Kritchlow]

Which is illegal in my state.

Why would it make a difference whether you're parking a car or an airplane?

Well just how and where would they put the signage ?

 

[Salty]

Well just how and where would they put the signage ?

Something tells me that if they wanted to they could somehow solve that problem.

 

[midwestpa24]

I think Federal taxpayer funded airports should mandatorily have a substantial amount of public parking on unleased airport property in addition to leasing land to FBOs. The direct cost of providing that option is close to zero (public airport land is/was mostly given to the airport owner) and competing with e.g. $5/night makes the FBOs earn their money.

Ever parked downtown in any major metropolitan area. Find a lot of free parking, even on the taxpayer funded streets?

Another thing I'd note, if the FBO is granted exclusive use of the ramp space by their lease, that ramp is not funded by FAA grants. Either the Airport or the FBO is paying for that pavement.

 

[Tusayan]

Ever parked downtown in any major metropolitan area. Find a lot of free parking, even on the taxpayer funded streets?

I didn’t say free, I said public.

 

[Anthem]

I didn’t say free, I said public.

Haha, you mean like $18 for crossing a bridge thats tax payer funded. . . . and thats assuming its a 2 axle. With more axles it goes from $50-$150 per trip.. . . Thats for like 1 min to cross whatever bridge/tunnel. . . You dont even get to park overnight there. . . . . Again, taxpayer funded, on public land. . . so 1 min traversing a bridge can be $150. Where are you drawing the line on "reasonable" ?

 

[EdFred]

Have you ever parked at an airport that had fees posted and visible before you parked? I haven't

Many times. At least on the automobile side of things. Every parking ramp I have been to has a fee structure posted before getting the ticket at the gate.

 

[EdFred]

The issue is that you want to treat this outside of the vacuum and leverage existing people that have a cost, for free - namely FBO staff. Lets work the numbers then - you will have to have a minimum of two people to work a separate security gate. The "ramp" that you now propose probably cant be used for renting to others as well. Since thats not a known cost we'll skip that for now. Assume 8k a month for two(and partial 3rd) people to be staffed their at all times to handle whatever traffic there is to let people out and let people in. You can argue a code key gate, but that isnt happening at any class B/C/D airports. So 8k a month for how many planes ? we're talking planes who arent going to fuel, or use the bathrooms. Because all of those will be subject to ramp/fuel fees at the fbo or you have to run a self service fuel farm. All this for how many "exceptions" that want no service and in/out access a day ? Perhaps many days that number is 0. Even at 5 a day, you're talking $50+ for cost recovery assuming that its a consistent 5 a day. You'll have to factor in rain days with no traffic and what not but yet you still have to pay the gate security staff.

You'll argue - well we can maybe piggy back this on to TSA. Good luck getting anyone from TSA to do it. Or existing airport personnel. . . Good luck there. Thats the whole point of them negotiating an FBO lease. So the entire premise of "reasonable" doesnt work in the math to do this.

And the irony of all this is that in most places - the fees ARE reasonable for piston aircraft. Even in most class B airports, ALL piston aircraft are for all intents and purposes being subsidized by the jet-a guys. Even if generally the turbine guys can "handle" the charges - the reality is that they are paying way more than their fair share compared to a piston regardless of the metric you use (sq footage, whatever). So anyone making the argument from a piston perspective is way way off base as compared to the jet-a crowd. Now if you're arguing for the jet-a crowd - Im sure they appreciate your concern. . lol

No need for a security person. There's your first bad assumption. Code posted on the inside for re-entry. Done.

 

[EdFred]

From:

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/airports/airport_compliance/compliance_guidance/QAs-FBO-Consolidation-Pricing-final.pdf

Airport sponsors are prohibited from granting an exclusive right for the use of the airport, including granting an exclusive right to an FBO providing or intending to provide aeronautical services to the public

Call the airport manager EVERY DAMN DAY asking where the non-exclusive entrance/parking is.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Call the airport manager EVERY DAMN DAY asking where the non-exclusive entrance/parking is.

Probably better yet, have your attorney call every day.

 

[Anthem]

No need for a security person. There's your first bad assumption. Code posted on the inside for re-entry. Done.

will never pass for any controlled field. lets propose to do this at La Guardia. . . see how far you get.

 

[bradg33]

will never pass for any controlled field. lets propose to do this at La Guardia. . . see how far you get.

Plenty of controlled airports have minimal perimeter security. I can think of at least 2 local Class D airports where I can very easily walk or drive onto the ramp without the need for a badge, code or opening a gate. Those with airline service are a different matter, but not every controlled airport has "controlled" access to the ramp.

 

[Tusayan]

will never pass for any controlled field. lets propose to do this at La Guardia. . . see how far you get.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense but maybe what you’re trying to say is that where GA is mixed with CAT, ramp security is a greater challenge? The way that is normally addressed is with separate GA parking, a security perimeter around the CAT terminal area and simpler security measures for the rest of the airport. There aren’t in any case many US airports used by GA where mixing security with CAT is an issue.

Otherwise I think most reading here will have visited many ATC controlled fields where punch pads and codes for access to public transient GA parking works just fine. It’s more the rule than the exception in which a monopoly FBO situation exists. The issue is that the exceptions are very problematic.

 

[MikeNY]

a code key gate, but that isn't happening at any class B/C/D airports ...
will never pass for any controlled field

Agree with Ed, brad33 and Tusayan.

It is not unusual for gate code posted for transients ramp access (re-entry), even at Class D airports.
For scenario described in post #200, required 'security staffing' (and corresponding cost), does not appear to be an accurate assumption.

... in most places -the fees ARE reasonable for piston aircraft. Even in most class B airports ...

Revisit this assumption after flying piston aircraft into ... Logan, LGA, etc.

 

[Anthem]

Revisit this assumption after flying piston aircraft into ... Logan, LGA, etc.

Notice the keyword "most"... besides the entire metro NY area is serviced by "feeder" airports KTEB, FRG and HPN. KTEB for piston is not prohibitively "unreasonable"....

I fly in to KTEB all the time. Singles are like $40 ramp (waived with gas) and $20 a night. For being as close as it is to NYC - thats totally "reasonable". Twins are $60 ramp / $30 nightly. KTEB does charge a security and landing fee ($32 I believe). But again - you cant park a car in NY for $30 nightly (well you can, but its pretty rare and difficult).

 

[EdFred]

will never pass for any controlled field. lets propose to do this at La Guardia. . . see how far you get.

I've been to a number of controlled fields where there has been a code on the gate to get back in after hours. No reason it couldn't apply to attended hours either. So no idea where you are getting your "never."

 

[EdFred]

Probably better yet, have your attorney call every day.

Not when he bills me in 15 minute increments for every phone call!

 

[MauleSkinner]

Not when he bills me in 15 minute increments for every phone call!

If an individual called every day, it could very easily be interpreted as just whining about the money. If someone paid their attorney to make the calls, it would more easily be interpreted as trying to ensure that the applicable laws are being followed, and money is not the primary issue.

 

[Anthem]

I've been to a number of controlled fields where there has been a code on the gate to get back in after hours. No reason it couldn't apply to attended hours either. So no idea where you are getting your "never."

if you want to nit pick - sure. Almost never, and even rarer at airfields with commercial aviation present. Its certainly not common at controlled fields and it wouldnt apply to many other airports that have any decent amount of airline service - which is usually where these "egregious" or "unreasonable" examples arise.

 

[EdFred]

if you want to nit pick - sure. Almost never, and even rarer at airfields with commercial aviation present. Its certainly not common at controlled fields and it wouldnt apply to many other airports that have any decent amount of airline service - which is usually where these "egregious" or "unreasonable" examples arise.

These were airports with airline traffic. Your descriptors of never and rarely are way off. Maybe you just need to travel more.

 

[midwestpa24]

Controlled Airport - Airport having a control tower

Commercial Airport - Airport have scheduled airline service

Commercial airports typically have higher security requirements. Controlled airports are usually the cause for heightened security. An airport can be one, both, or neither.

 

[Anthem]

These were airports with airline traffic. Your descriptors of never and rarely are way off. Maybe you just need to travel more.

So if “rarely” is way off - then there isn’t any point to have this discussion. As way off of rarely would be what? Widely available. And if GA access with keycode is wide available at airline airports - then what are people complaining about ?

Ok people - EdFred says gate access is widely available at airports with airline traffic. Not sure what tree you guys are barking up with this….

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

And BTW, most airports are government owned and operated. Meaning the Airport Manager and staff are city/county employees.

Our airport (KAUW) is owned by the city, but the airport manager and staff are NOT city employees. Well, I should say the airport manager is an unpaid city employee. The city does not operate the airport; the FBO has a contract to provide instruction, airplane rental, and the exclusive right to pump fuel. The manager oversees hangar rentals, but the rent is paid directly to the city, not the FBO.

 

[EdFred]

So if “rarely” is way off - then there isn’t any point to have this discussion. As way off of rarely would be what? Widely available. And if GA access with keycode is wide available at airline airports - then what are people complaining about ?

Ok people - EdFred says gate access is widely available at airports with airline traffic. Not sure what tree you guys are barking up with this….

You realize there is a huge gradient between almost never and widely available, right? No, of course you don't.

 

[Anthem]

You realize there is a huge gradient between almost never and widely available, right? No, of course you don't.

You do realize there is NOT a huge gradient from "way off" "rarely" to "widely available", right ? No, of course you dont. . .

 

[EdFred]

You do realize there is NOT a huge gradient from "way off" "rarely" to "widely available", right ? No, of course you dont. . .

Actually there is. Sorry that you don't have as much of a vocabulary or the math knowledge as the rest of us.

 

[DJTorrente]

I fly in to KTEB all the time. Singles are like $40 ramp (waived with gas) and $20 a night. For being as close as it is to NYC - thats totally "reasonable". Twins are $60 ramp / $30 nightly. KTEB does charge a security and landing fee ($32 I believe). But again - you cant park a car in NY for $30 nightly (well you can, but its pretty rare and difficult).

Signature at KTEB charges $8.80/gal for 100LL. (At nearby KMMU, they charge $8.90 -- but they have no competition at KMMU. But I digress...) Also nearby, KCDW charges $6.87/gal. $2/gal. diff. * 20 gal min. == $40 "ramp" fee... more if you fill the tanks.

As for comparison to Manhattan parking, while it may be as close as one can get in an ASEL, Teterboro sure ain't Manhattan. After paying for a parking spot in Manhattan, I'm usually not a 30-minute cab ride from my final destination.

I'll grant you its not a mortgage payment or anything. But if it was, it would be self-defeating -- no one at all would pay it. At the margin, event additional dollar in fees is one less pilot. Every one less pilot is the closer we drive this hobby we love into extinction. I don't want aviation relegated to the "Force", only practiced by Jedi priests.

 

[Anthem]

Signature at KTEB charges $8.80/gal for 100LL. (At nearby KMMU, they charge $8.90 -- but they have no competition at KMMU. But I digress...) Also nearby, KCDW charges $6.87/gal. $2/gal. diff. * 20 gal min. == $40 "ramp" fee... more if you fill the tanks.

As for comparison to Manhattan parking, while it may be as close as one can get in an ASEL, Teterboro sure ain't Manhattan. After paying for a parking spot in Manhattan, I'm usually not a 30-minute cab ride from my final destination.

I'll grant you its not a mortgage payment or anything. But if it was, it would be self-defeating -- no one at all would pay it. At the margin, event additional dollar in fees is one less pilot. Every one less pilot is the closer we drive this hobby we love into extinction. I don't want aviation relegated to the "Force", only practiced by Jedi priests.

are you arguing ramp/landing fees or fuel costs ? Because if you're arguing fuel costs - its going to get messy. And maybe you should target the entire state of California as being "egregious" - but yet people continue to live in the state.

But I concur that sometimes the ramp and fuel fees are tied together as they are interrelated (but not as much as nightly charges, which are rising everywhere).

But all the piston SEL and MEL planes have it really easy. there are jet-a burning folks that have a similar or smaller footprint and being charged 4x, 8x, maybe 10x.

KTEB has just about more FBO's than any other GA airport. Granted signature has slowly eroded that by buying 4 others up there. But even with competition, fuel wasnt exactly what you call "competitive". So its not about single or multiple either. but KTEB is closer than just about any other airport there (for manhattan). Maybe LGA might come close, but its generally faster to get in from KTEB than any of the other 3.

And I dont think having CDW out another 15 miles is a good comparison. Further away is going to be cheaper. We know that. That is why ISP, FRG, and even HPN is cheaper than TEB. I mean you could use JFK, LGA, EWR for fuel examples also. . .

as for access - no doubt. cheaper is better. But this thing we're in isnt cheap. When one hour of rentals are $150-250/hour for a basic 172 - anything less than an hour worth of rental for landing/overnight fees is what I would not consider egregious (i actually use one hour of fuel burn as a good litmus test). Would I like it to be cheaper - absolutely. Every one would. But use one hour of fuel burn maybe as a good threshold.

 

[Tusayan]

Most US airport land was given the current owners by the Federal Government, as is the annual maintenance cost of runways and taxiways, with a limitation on the gifts that the entire plot of land be reserved for aeronautical use and thereby not subject to the same market forces that create land and rental values just outside the airport fence. What's happening at some airports is contrary to that direction: local government airport land owners are conspiring with their lessees to extract and split exorbitant rents from a regulated monopoly asset, using market value outside of the fence to defend their improper pricing. FAA is to blame for allowing it.

 

[hindsight2020]

Most US airport land was given the current owners by the Federal Government, as is the annual maintenance cost of runways and taxiways, with a limitation on the gifts that the entire plot of land be reserved for aeronautical use and thereby not subject to the same market forces that create land and rental values just outside the airport fence. What's happening at some airports is contrary to that direction: local government airport land owners are conspiring with their lessees to extract and split exorbitant rents from a regulated monopoly asset, using market value outside of the fence to defend their improper pricing. FAA is to blame for allowing it.

I've been lurking this thread and I kept thinking of land grants and the philosophy behind such efforts, especially when it came to public education institutions. Your comments beat me to it.

 

[dans2992]

Is there any reasonable justification to charge turbines more when they have similar footprint/weight as some of the pistons?

 

[Salty]

Is there any reasonable justification to charge turbines more when they have similar footprint/weight as some of the pistons?

I think there are, but I don't know if they equal all that much more money.

I think in general they are heavier

More wear on ramp​

Need heavier equipment to move​

Increased liability

More expensive to pay for repairs when you break them​

More likely to kill someone with it​

Customers are higher maintenance, typically require more services (Nuisance tax)

But the real reason is because the owner has to have lots of money.

 

[trenton]

Is there any reasonable justification to charge turbines more when they have similar footprint/weight as some of the pistons?

It an easy way for FBOs to capture consumer surplus ("the monetary gain obtained by consumers because they are able to purchase a product for a price that is less than the highest price that they would be willing to pay"). It's also why the sales process at car dealerships works the way it does (and why we love it so much).

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_surplus

 

[GoFly]

When I build GoFly International Airport and BBQ Shack, it’s gonna be 8k long, lighted, RNAV, ILS, 1.89 JetA, 1.99 AvGas, no landing fees, free parking, free crew car, free hangars when available, and 2 for 1 beverages and rib plates on Friday.