Egregious FBO charges

MauleSkinner said:
Actually, there is a “supply and demand” difference. It costs way more than $50 or $100 to heat a large hangar, and especially to reheat it after opening the doors. A small airport FBO would probably rather lose a little bit of income than lose money by reheating the hangar twice.

The larger airport FBO most likely didn’t open and close the doors twice for every airplane in the hangar. More likely they had a hangarful of airplanes ready to pull in at once, which would cover the reheating costs.
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This may be the case but then they should have told me the fee is $150 + $200 to get in and out instead of sneaking in that charge. Also, nowhere else have I ever been charged a door opening/closing fee. Not in ND, MT, SD and all of those places were pretty darn cold when I visited.
 
TCABM said:
We only have one side of the story, but the FBO didn’t steal credit card info, it was on file. That means OP had been there before (and admitted it). Ignorance or attempting avoidance of the policy isn’t a valid reason to not comply with the policy.


While not the exact concept, it’s already being done for landing fees.

www.vector-us.com

PLANEPASS | Landing fee billing | Vector Airport Systems

PLANEPASS is Vector Airport System's automated, full-service landing fee billing and collection system.
www.vector-us.com www.vector-us.com

ETA: my nearest airport and former base contracted for the system; there’s no exceptions for based aircraft, to include those who own airport homes with hangars. Prior to the ownership change a couple years ago, there was no landing fees at all, so there was some ruffling of feathers, to include a lawsuit as it seems the covenants for the homesites includes the phrase “free access to runway”. Don’t know how the case is going though.
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Is there a way to know what airports have PlanePass so I can avoid them?
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
This may be the case but then they should have told me the fee is $150 + $200 to get in and out instead of sneaking in that charge. Also, nowhere else have I ever been charged a door opening/closing fee. Not in ND, MT, SD and all of those places were pretty darn cold when I visited.
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No argument on whether they should inform you.

I have seen door opening fees, though.

I also have no issues with boycotting an FBO or community that structured things so as to appear not to want my business. If I’m understanding the OP’s post correctly, I refused to do business with the operator that was at that airport 15 years ago or more. That airport owner has a history of selecting contractors that I don’t care for.
 
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Salty said:
If people are flying in and staying the night, they are bringing economic benefit to that community.
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Says the Florida resident whose state and local goverment is absolute tax leaches on the people who bring economic benefit to that community. The amount of taxes directed at tourists is designed to subsidize to residents.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
^^^^^^ This.

I, as a pilot and aircraft owner have choices. If an FBO treats me crappy, and by extend the city or that part of the city does, I won't visit again. When I do visit, I spend at least two nights, $500 in hotel rates, food, rental car, etc. If I get fleeced at the airport, I won't return there. If the airport was reasonable, I most likely will come back and spend more. The example I gave above with the "door opening fee" B.S. - I landed there not exactly by choice (was a diversion). The town seemed nice enough though and I would have loved to come back and visit some time but due to how the FBO treated us, I won't. It's even more extreme now with our move to Texas. I've been writing to area airports and some just quoted outrageous monthly hangar fees. I make sure to not buy a home anywhere near those airports. Due to how the airport/FBO operates, they miss out on a family looking to spend six digits on a home, pay local taxes and contribute to the local economy for years to come. I can't imagine that's in the best interest of the municipality that owns the airport. I get supply and demand but let's go back to the example of the "door opening fee" B.S. airport - they're a 30 minute flight from a major airport. The FBO at that major airport charges $50 per night in the hangar and no "door opening fee". The B.S. airport was a ghost town compared to the nearby major airport so it absolutely had nothing to do with supply and demand. The hangar was empty. All they had in mind was taking advantage of someone they thought they could take advantage of. Some airports/municipalities unfortunately operate that way. Having said that, I've been to nearly 100 airports and FBOs and the vast majority of experiences were great.
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Maybe it's intentional: charge outrageous fees, less planes use the FBO, so they charge more to try to keep the same revenue, then when very few people go there, they tell the city the airport isn't viable and the city transforms the airport into a housing development.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Actually, there is a “supply and demand” difference. It costs way more than $50 or $100 to heat a large hangar, and especially to reheat it after opening the doors. A small airport FBO would probably rather lose a little bit of income than lose money by reheating the hangar twice.
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I call BS! Just how big is this hangar? I can move my hangar 25 degrees on less than 50 cents. Literally. I just did the math for the last time I opened my door. I have power tracking on my AC circuits. Six tons worth. My hangar is 33,000 cubic feet. I'm sure you're talking a lot larger than that, but 50 freaking cents. More than $100 is total BS.

To get to 200x my cost you're talking a 350 foot by 350 foot hangar (nearly 3 acres) with more than a 50 foot ceiling.
 
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KBVY has entered the chat.....

The last class C airport I flew to, the FBO sent me a thank you card after buying 15 gallons of fuel. And buying fuel ended up being cheaper than buying fuel at home and paying their fee.
 
Salty said:
I call BS! Just how big is this hangar? I can move my hangar 25 degrees on less than 50 cents. Literally. I just did the math for the last time I opened my door. I have power tracking on my AC circuits. Six tons worth. My hangar is 33,000 cubic feet. I'm sure you're talking a lot larger than that, but 50 freaking cents. More than $100 is total BS.
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Good for you.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Not always, and transparency is improving greatly. I agree that my comment is slightly dated. They are provided if you ask for the information. As I mentioned above, you need to check the box on the IHG hotel site- see attached image. Disclosure of these fees and taxes is recent due to proposed (in in CA, existing) laws like this:

Hotel booking sites, for example, would list only the room rates, not the "all-in" pricing. I note now that Booking.com, for example, lists the room rate with fine print indicating the price doesn't include fees and taxes, but they are listed now.
View attachment 133176
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There are multiple steps between what your screenshot shows and actually booking a room. Show the screen where you're actually entering payment information.
 
Salty said:
I call BS! Just how big is this hangar? I can move my hangar 25 degrees on less than 50 cents. Literally. I just did the math for the last time I opened my door. I have power tracking on my AC circuits. Six tons worth. My hangar is 33,000 cubic feet. I'm sure you're talking a lot larger than that, but 50 freaking cents. More than $100 is total BS.

To get to 200x my cost you're talking a 350 foot by 350 foot hangar with more than a 50 foot ceiling.
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I can answer the size question: I owned a Cherokee at the time. As mentioned, I was the only plane in the hangar that night. The hangar was pretty big but not gigantic. I would say it probably could have fit 8 Cherokee sized planes at the same time.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
I can answer the size question: I owned a Cherokee at the time. As mentioned, I was the only plane in the hangar that night. The hangar was pretty big but not gigantic. I would say it probably could have fit 8 Cherokee sized planes at the same time.
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You can fit 8 Cherokees on way less than an acre.
 
Clip4 said:
That site is terribly outdated. Some of the FBOs they list are no longer in business or no longer in business at that airport.
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There is always AirNav.... they list all the local numbers... and I believe the ForFlight provides this as well.
 
Salty said:
You can fit 8 Cherokees on way less than an acre.
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Maybe it was a little larger - it's been like two years since. I just went to Google Maps and measured the roof of the hangar. It measures 160 ft. by 70 ft.
 
Salty said:
I call BS! Just how big is this hangar? I can move my hangar 25 degrees on less than 50 cents. Literally. I just did the math for the last time I opened my door. I have power tracking on my AC circuits.
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Man, you must have really cheap electric rates or a bad math. If I put a kerosene 50,000 btu torpedo heater in a northern hangar I it would struggle to move the temperature 25°, let alone for 50 cents.
 
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Lindberg said:
There are multiple steps between what your screenshot shows and actually booking a room. Show the screen where you're actually entering payment information.
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Why? I already showed that you can click the check box to get the taxes and fees as your post indicated. This wasn't always the case until recently. As I stated, my comment was based on old information and doesn't hold now. What changed are recent laws in CA, and proposed legislation like this: https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...e-regulation-rule-on-unfair-or-deceptive-fees
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Why? I already showed that you can click the check box to get the taxes and fees as your post indicated. This wasn't always the case until recently. As I stated, my comment was based on old information and doesn't hold now. What changed are recent laws in CA, and proposed legislation like this: https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...e-regulation-rule-on-unfair-or-deceptive-fees
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You may have meant to link to this NPRM:


The NPRM deals with disclosing fees in advertising. It doesn't suggest that fees aren't fully discussed prior to actually booking a room. So nothing's inconsistent with what I wrote.
 
Lindberg said:
You may have meant to link to this NPRM:


The NPRM deals with disclosing fees in advertising. It doesn't suggest that fees aren't fully discussed prior to actually booking a room. So nothing's inconsistent with what I wrote.
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Yes- the same link. All from the reference we both cited:
In particular, they raised concerns that sellers do not advertise the total amount consumers will have to pay and disclose fees only after consumers are well into purchasing transactions, harming both consumers and businesses.
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"well into the purchasing transactions" includes billing at the end of a stay - note the next comment
In many comments, mandatory add-on fees omitted from an initial offer were not disclosed until checkout...
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Just as I've experienced
Consumer Reports commented that hotels and OTAs have continued to charge hidden resort fees after the FTC issued warning letters in 2012.
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I've no doubt that you had good experiences. But some of us didn't- the comments reflect my experience as well, and counts just as much as yours. There wouldn't be a need for such a rule if the hotels disclosed the taxes and fees up front.
 
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flyingron said:
Hey, I feel for you. My wife needed to use the bathroom and we popped into GYY which used to be a quaint sleepy little friendly place. Theyr'e still friendly, but that bathroom stop cost her $50.
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Well, optimistically speaking... if it was a $100 hamburger goin in, you got a 50% discount on the flip side :D
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Yes- the same link. All from the reference we both cited:

"well into the purchasing transactions" includes billing at the end of a stay - note the next comment

Just as I've experienced


I've no doubt that you had good experiences. But some of us didn't- the comments reflect my experience as well, and counts just as much as yours. There wouldn't be a need for such a rule if the hotels disclosed the taxes and fees up front.
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They're not the same link. I linked to the NPRM; you linked to a hearing transcript.

And you should reread what I wrote that you responded to:

www.pilotsofamerica.com

Egregious FBO charges

Have you been to this FBO before and did you know they charge for ramp use beforehand? Although I don't own it, I fly a PC12 and know there will be ramp and/or parking fees at Atlantic, Signature, etc. if I don't buy fuel. Usually 100 gallons. Whether you used their facilities or not, you parked...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
 
MountainDude said:
What if they charged him $15,000? Do you still justify that? Where is the limit?
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Welcome to a capitalist society. I don’t think anybody here is arguing against outrageous fees. My point is that many of you seem to believe that you should be able to park where you want free of charge and if you don’t like the price, than you should try to dispute it with your bank and charge it back to the business - which is an absolute entitled way of thought that I simply didn’t believe many of you had.

Do you know the best way to boycott outrageous fees? Simply don’t return.
MountainDude said:
Fees should be transparent. They are not, because they can get away with it.
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Give me an example. Being told facility fees over the phone is still being transparent and I’ve never had an FBO refuse to do so, if I cannot find them posted online.
 
I’ve been to, dozens of different FBO’s and I’ve never once been surprised or felt mislead by hidden fees or deception. I am certainly not sticking up for that side of the coin, but I frankly have never experienced the claims that many of y’all are making. It is your job as PIC to familiarize yourself with the FBO ahead of time. ;)
 
Lindberg said:
They're not the same link. I linked to the NPRM; you linked to a hearing transcript.

And you should reread what I wrote that you responded to:

www.pilotsofamerica.com

Egregious FBO charges

Have you been to this FBO before and did you know they charge for ramp use beforehand? Although I don't own it, I fly a PC12 and know there will be ramp and/or parking fees at Atlantic, Signature, etc. if I don't buy fuel. Usually 100 gallons. Whether you used their facilities or not, you parked...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
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This is where your link goes to:
Lindberg said:
I have never not known what those fees were before I spent the night.
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That's great, but many hotels weren't transparent with those fees. That's why there is a proposed rule. How about you show a screen shot from about 2 years ago showing that those fees were disclosed?
Also, the items I quoted were from your reference, the one that you asked if I"...may have meant to link to".
 
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RyanB said:
I’ve been to, dozens of different FBO’s and I’ve never once been surprised or felt mislead by hidden fees or deception. I am certainly not sticking up for that side of the coin, but I frankly have never experienced the claims that many of y’all are making. It is your job as PIC to familiarize yourself with the FBO ahead of time. ;)
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Generally agree in principle. But...

In my experience there's also a lot of revolving door of staff at a lot of FBOs and they can't answer questions correctly. They'll say whatever to keep you moving. In the last year I have two instances where my bill deviated significantly from what was expected. In both cases the person who answered the questions was just flat wrong.

And in both cases I ended up paying the higher amount without much more than a shrug on their behalf.

And it's hard to get anything in writing since I've rarely ever gotten email back from FBOs (except for the majors everyone loves to hate).
 
RyanB said:
I’ve been to, dozens of different FBO’s and I’ve never once been surprised or felt mislead by hidden fees or deception. I am certainly not sticking up for that side of the coin, but I frankly have never experienced the claims that many of y’all are making. It is your job as PIC to familiarize yourself with the FBO ahead of time. ;)
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I’ve only been to 133 unique airports and I’ve been charged more than I was told I would be three times. Total of more than $200. I’ve honestly not kept track of the times I was charged without prior notice. But it’s been a few times.

How often do you stay overnight at remote airports?
 
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RyanB said:
Welcome to a capitalist society. I don’t think anybody here is arguing against outrageous fees. My point is that many of you seem to believe that you should be able to park where you want free of charge and if you don’t like the price, than you should try to dispute it with your bank and charge it back to the business - which is an absolute entitled way of thought that I simply didn’t believe many of you had.
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What legal basis did the FBO have to charge him what it did?
 
Lindberg said:
What legal basis did the FBO have to charge him what it did?
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What legal basis did they *not* have? It sounds like they have exclusive rights to that ramp space or they own it as part of their agreement with the City. In other words, they control that pavement. They have every right to charge for parking there, whether you used their facilities or not.
 
Lindberg said:
I have never not known what those fees were before I spent the night.
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Yes! But you already know you need to pay them in order to spend the night.

The OP likely knew there were fees
Has previously engaged in avoidance behaviors-other peoples hangars
Did not go in the fbo to pay fees (where a little shmoozing might have made it better)
Took off without paying fees
And now that he has been caught, by the people that make the rules, wants to complain that his shoplifted item cost too much to buy.
Imagine if this were an episode of cops, John Walsh reporting from the FBO
 
dans2992 said:
Hello,

I parked on a ramp overnight, used my own chocks and never entered FBO facilities. The city has given this FBO a monopoly over all ramp space.

After I departed, I was emailed a receipt from the FBO for $385 ($270 "facility fee", and $115 "parking fee" - for a Meridian). It seems they kept my AvFuel info on file from > 1 yr ago when I was last there and just ran it again. I did not authorize any charges.

Usually, I try and beg/borrow hangar space from whoever I know at this airport who will let me crash in their hangar, and that usually works, but this time everyone was full. Realistically, I may need to use their ramp in the future, since it's the only ramp space (all I need is a square of concrete).

Do I just need to suck it up and pay these charges, or is it worth disputing with AvFuel (given that I did not authorize them)? I assume there is no way to realistically "fight the man" on this one, but just checking. What recourse does the FBO have?
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Honestly, you fly a Meridan worth $2 million that burns $3.50 a minute in fuel and $385 to park on a secured ramp overnight is egregious?
 
RyanB said:
What legal basis did they *not* have? It sounds like they have exclusive rights to that ramp space or they own it as part of their agreement with the City. In other words, they control that pavement. They have every right to charge for parking there, whether you used their facilities or not.
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Yeah, that's not how it works. Controlling the pavement, if they do, might give them the right to ask him to leave. Did they? If I stand on your front lawn I don't owe you money just because you say so. Of course not, that's absurd.
 
Lindberg said:
Yeah, that's not how it works. Controlling the pavement, if they do, might give them the right to ask him to leave. Did they? If I stand on your front lawn I don't owe you money just because you say so. Of course not, that's absurd.
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How would you feel if he just parked his car in your lawn overnight?
 
Lindberg said:
Yeah, that's not how it works.
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Curious, what’s your experience with airport management?

It seems you have a preconceived idea about how these types of things are facilitated, but differs from reality.
 
Lindberg said:
Yeah, that's not how it works. Controlling the pavement, if they do, might give them the right to ask him to leave. Did they? If I stand on your front lawn I don't owe you money just because you say so. Of course not, that's absurd.
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So exactly how to you ask me to leave when you walk out your front door to find my car parked your front lawn and I have walked off?

You can refuse to pay I suppose. The FBO and the airport can both send you trespass notice. If the FBO has more than one location, it would apply at those locations too.
 
Clip4 said:
Honestly, you fly a Meridan worth $2 million that burns $3.50 a minute in fuel and $385 to park on a secured ramp overnight is egregious?
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It’s not very secure. Unmanned after hours and the fence is… laughable.

1 hour in one direction, I can park for $10 a night and 1 hour (closer to the major city) there is a 24/7 FBO that charges zero handling/ramp. Perhaps I’ll patronize those in the future. But, yeah given that the “going rate” in the area is $0, and $10…. I think $385 is a bit uncalled for.

Sure, the aircraft is expensive, but it takes up about the same ramp space as a DA40, or C182.

Don’t get your panties in a bunch, I’ll pay the fee, because I did park there, but…. I’m not sure how this meets the “reasonable” price requirements of the grant assurance given that it’s literal orders of magnitude greater than other local providers.
 
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