midwestpa24
Final Approach
Nope. The Federal Government contributes $0 to operations and maintenance cost of an airport. The FAA will pay to pave it, but not to maintain it.
Egregious FBO charges
- Thread starter dans2992
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Nope. The Federal Government contributes $0 to operations and maintenance cost of an airport. The FAA will pay to pave it, but not to maintain it.
Runways, taxiways, aprons and runway lighting are the costs of maintaining an airport, as opposed to private FBO facilities. This week it was announced that my home base is getting $5 million this year from the Federal government, to support one GA airport that was originally donated to the current owner by the Federal government. In combination the airports in my county are getting approximately $32 million in Federal funding this year. Budgets like these generally allow for taxpayer funded transient parking areas that are not on property leased by the airport owner to FBOs. While those public facilities exist at many airports they do not at all GA airports because in some cases the owner is not using the Federal money in the public interest, it is instead setting up a monopoly FBO situation and splitting the resulting profits via ground rent from the FBO, who would otherwise not be able to pay the owner as much rent. If there are two or more FBOs on the field they just cooperate to fix prices, and the airport owner gets its money from both.
The FAA also supplies ATC for Class D and up airports, subsidizing them in that way too.
The FAA also supplies ATC for Class D and up airports, subsidizing them in that way too.
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Exactly. For instance an mu-2. Same footprint as a 421c. One is 60 ramp and 40 a night. The mu-2 is 350 ramp and 150 a night.
It is 2k lbs heavier.
But it comes down to that they know the pockets are probably deeper. It’s based on how much they think the customer can afford.
fasteddie
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Fasteddie
Isn't this just a matter of Signature and other FBOs charging what they do, because they can? Who's going to tell them no?
They're ratcheted up fees over time, with their eyes on corporate biz jet traffic. And I speculate that, your normal biz jet is just going to pay whatever fee they're charged and move on.
The average owner/operator and/or piston flyer is just a small part of their business. A place like Signature doesn't care, because a.) you're a small percentage of your business, and b.) you don't really have a voice in the discussion.
Realistically, what is someone supposed to do? Go complain to City Hall? Those people likely won't know **** about the inner workings of their airport. That's why they outsourced things to places like Signature in the first place. And the licensed pilot is such a vanishingly small percentage of the voting population.
Or Signature will serve Kansas City style instead of Memphis (Gods choice) of ribsSignature will buy you out in a month………….and no more ribs.
It is an FAA responsibility to force those who take FAA money for public GA airports to make them available to the flying public… with reasonable cost reimbursement, not gigantic fees extracted from an (un)regulated airport monopoly some of which ultimately get passed to the airport owner through FBO ground rent. I think the only solution is political pressure on FAA, as well ‘name and shame’ campaigns on those directly responsible at the public airports.
dans2992
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Dans2992
In many cases, they just get allocated to FBO profits, and the city just doesn’t care, I guess.
Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
Many, many times. Particularly out west I've flown to scores of small airports that post their fees right on the ramp, and often have a drop box and envelopes to leave money.
Gilbert Buettner
Cleared for Takeoff
Not exactly. There are many non-federal control towers where the controllers are county or city employees.
GoFly
Pre-takeoff checklist
Oooooooo, you don’t mess with a dudes ribs. No Sale!!!!Or Signature will serve Kansas City style instead of Memphis (Gods choice) of ribs
midwestpa24
Final Approach
There are a lot more costs associated with maintaining the airport than you realize. Yes there are Federal Grants given to airports, but there is never enough money to go around. Only certain projects are eligible. The FAA will pay to repave a runway, or rehabilitate a lighting system, but they do not MAINTAIN them. The Airport owner is responsible for crack sealing, re-striping, plowing snow, mowing grass, paying the light bill, etc, etc.
Also of note, the FAA will not pay for revenue producing facilities or anything exclusively leased to anyone, with only a few exceptions. So if the apron is under the exclusive control of the FBO, no Federal dollars for that pavement.
Many airports only have one FBO and not because of some conspiracy to fleece pilots, simply that there is not enough business or room to support two. Outside of the busiest of airports, the FBO business is not exactly high profit.
For reference here is a link to the Airport Improvement Program handbook that explains how the whole FAA Grant program works, because there is a lot of misunderstanding by pilots how it works.
As mentioned, I believe the best solution to the real (un)regulated monopoly situation given FAAs laziness in doing their job is that all public airport owners receiving FAA funds should be mandated to have a non-leased public parking ramp so that any FBO leaseholder must earn whatever it charges to utilize the FBO leasehold land and services, and is not in a monopoly business charging ridiculous prices - as is obviously the case at a number of airports, it’s not a theory. Then, if an FBO cannot compete with the public ramp because self serve fuel, Uber, Foreflight & cell service etc provide all that’s needed with better value to the public, that FBO will not survive, the facility can be leveled to provide more parking and few will care. Nonexistent FBOs do not cost money to maintain or staff. Alternately, if the FBO does provide enough extra services that enough people are interested in buying, it will survive.
By the way, the FAA funding that my base gets from the taxpayer works out to $14,000 a day, every day. Plenty enough to justify the flying public demanding reasonably priced parking.
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dans2992
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Ok, so if federal funds were used to construct a ramp, and that ramp was then exclusively leased to an FBO, that would be a violation?
Perhaps there is a path here. More investigation necessary.
midwestpa24
Final Approach
Correct, it would be in the wording of the lease with the FBO. One thing to note, when the FAA funds a project at an airport, they don't just write a check and walk away. The FAA has an engineer assigned to each project from concept to closeout, and use and "ownership" of that pavement is part of that process. FAA funded projects are way more structured than most would believe.
Pinecone
En-Route
That's why I CALL each FBO and ask about their fees. And get the name of the person who told me what the fees are.
Suppose you are told on the phone that there is no ramp fee, overnight fee only. Nonetheless, you get billed $385.00 after the fact, based on your N-number. FBO staff may turn over quickly; by the time the bill arrives, the person you spoke to may be gone. Or, upon inquiry, that person later says "I have no memory of ever speaking to [Pinecone]. I never told anyone that the ramp fee was zero." If you are told the ramp fee is zero, how can you be certain you're speaking with someone who has the authority to waive what may be a written (internal) business policy of charging ramp fees? Are you going to start recording every call you make to an FBO? Interrogating the CSR on the phone if they give an answer you like? And if you still get charged after all that, will you still think its pilot's fault?
Lying is ****ty (and deceptive) business practice. So is hitting someone with unannounced, inflated fees without obtaining their informed consent in advance. If a business is willing to do the latter, why wouldn't they be just as willing to do the former?
As I said above, "Just be reasonable" goes both ways.
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Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
The error in your logic - The airport isn’t going to provide you a free ramp because the FBO is a revenue source for the airport. The airport can lower all these fees by charging the FBO less rent or self managing the FBO.
At some airports, the Company you are claiming is ripping you off is contracted by the airport authority to manage the facility and they receive an FBO management fee. All the ramp fees and many of the other charges are set by the airport authority. The manager (FBO) collects and remits the fees to the airport authority.
this is the delusion that is GA. . . You arent the primary funding for almost all of these airports. Its the corporate traffic (or turbine/jet - a ) traffic. Almost all of these places, the Avgas crowd is a rounding error. Your example presumes that there would be significant revenue to be gained (or lost) by doing what you are proposing, and there just isnt. What you are proposing is just to lower your own costs at whatever other expense that doesnt matter to you. But the reality is - that at most of these places that "we" as a GA collective visit - is not proportionately funded by us - its the much larger spending corporate crowd. Your "better value" mostly applies to you but not the actual money spending crowd .. . namely you dont want to spend money but want the option and facilities to be there (whether you choose to use them or not).
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Your “base” gets zero dollars in FAA funding for the operation of the airport.
As mentioned a major funding mechanism for most airports is the FAA and taxpayer. My base will get $5M this year, plus Federal taxpayer paid full time ATC staffing. The FBOs are not the airport, they are businesses that operate on the airport at the pleasure of the airport and by extension, given that US public airports are mostly government owned, at the pleasure of the taxpayer. If they don’t serve the public at public airports, one might consider that they should be gone and replaced by a parking lot. How much would a parking lot cost the airport owner to run?
I don’t generally care if the airports I visit have any facilities or staff at all, or any of the associated expenses. Zero people,
a self-serve fuel pump and a reasonably priced parking lot will do just fine.
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midwestpa24
Final Approach
Who are you going to call when the self serve pump doesn't work?
It doesn’t work that way. Space is leased out. Businesses run the way they are owned and run. It isn’t “at the pleasure” of the taxpayer. Just like when the government leases out property for businesses - they run it at the pleasure of themselves - not the government of the taxpayer. And yes - they do lease out space to commercial entities.
Who would I call now at the airports I visit that have only a self serve pump? Calling somebody associated with a fuel pump and actually reaching somebody who could assist strikes me as something with a very remote chance of success, and it’s not what I’d try to do.
I use e.g. Foreflight to verify recent fuel availability before I stop at the airport, and also don’t fly to minimum reserve. My solution if I found the pump broken would be to use a different self serve pump on the airport or fly somewhere else, in the worst case searching out some auto gas (which I can burn) to allow me to do so.
Government owned airports are not run by FBOs, they are tenants and they can be removed. Moreover I think the FBO concept is becoming obsolete for piston powered GA. There’s nowadays enough infrastructure in self-serve fuel, Uber, Foreflight etc that there’s less and less need to have people standing around waiting, land lines to Flight Service (remember those?), pilot lounges and planning rooms etc. If biz jets want that, and want to pay for it, that’s fine but don’t burden the general flying public with paying for what is increasingly looking nonsensical to them. Make sure there’s a parking lot instead and if there’s enough demand for a full service FBO let those who actually are interested in it pay for it. If there’s enough demand for an airport restaurant, that’s fine too for those who eat there - the advantage for those airport tenants is that they can also draw business from the community, making them more viable businesses. Or alternately if there’s not enough demand for FBOs, bulldoze them and eliminate their labor and maintenance costs.
When was the last time you bought full serve fuel for your car assuming you had a choice not to do so?
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Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
The last time I was in New Jersey and Oregon. There is no self serve fuel in New Jersey and Oregon just recently ended their ban on self serve.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not the way life works buddy. The airport is going to force you to use the FBO ramp and the FBO to get to your plane. You can scream and kick all you want.
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And they do. Because you certainly aren’t paying for it. You’re just a rounding error to the entire equation.
I did think of Oregon when writing, and how their backwards policy on automotive self-serve has finally ended. That’s also why I wrote “assuming you had a choice not to do so”, understanding that there are a (very) few places where the choice doesn’t exist.
Re “kicking and screaming”, firstly I’m not the “buddy” of anybody posting here. And I haven’t paid any FBO for parking in quite a long time. I’ve never paid for parking unless overnighting, I’ve paid higher prices for gas to avoid it when I am overnighting (but not to excess) or I’ve used the “county ramp” or equivalent at well run airports, bypassing the FBOs. So I’ve generally been able to avoid subsidizing FBO services that others may want to buy, and in particular avoided egregiously priced FBO offerings. Airport monopoly pricing is problematic where it exists, as this thread demonstrates, but it’s not by any stretch universal in the US.
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Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Go some place fun like Marathon or Key West and see how that works out for ya.
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GaryM
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Gary M
Ironically, NJ is just fine with self-serve gas at airports. Crawl up on a wing dragging a hose full of leaded fuel? No problem!!
But they'll argue all day that fueling a car is far too dangerous unless done by a trained professional. Even though the trained professional is some crackhead who started the job earlier that morning.
I guess you haven’t been to either much. Neither has fees that are unreasonable for GA. Last two times I paid zero.
Gilbert Buettner
Cleared for Takeoff
A few years ago, after using a self-serve pump at Adams County (63C) in Wisconsin, I found the hose would not rewind. I called the phone number at the pump and informed the airport manager, who said he would come out and fix it immediately.
I work at a city-owned airport. The FBO manager is also the airport manager. If the city removed the FBO, there would be no rentals, no fuel, no hangar management, no security, no plowing and mowing, etc. I am aware of nearby airports that are managed by governments - they appear to be much less successful.
Pinecone
En-Route
Except you DO know the fees at a restaurant. And can leave without incurring any. They do not charge you to walk in the door.
The one like that where I’m based has about 600 aircraft on the field, two large county ramps for transient parking at $5 a night, two fuel suppliers, more FBOs that I can count (although only one fancy one is needed for transient traffic) and 550 operations per day. It seems to be working out OK.
It surprises me that a local government airport owner would be allowed to put the manager of an FBO leasehold into their airport manager position. That setup seems to me intrinsically corrupt.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Guess you haven’t been to Marathon since Million Air became FBO.
Maybe I just don't rub people the wrong way.
Gilbert Buettner
Cleared for Takeoff
It is also true at the airport just a few miles north of us. Our FBO arrangement with the city has been in place since 1992.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
The managers of a lot of small GA airports are private contractors, having an FBO connected person as a manager would violate ethics laws in most states.