Cross Country & Freezing Rain

Jhernandez04 said:
Actually your the one I'm referring to with the term regurgitation.

Your saying the same stuff everyone else has already said. Getting that post count up.

You haven't helped me at all. Your just making me wish I wouldn't of said anything.
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Actually, the fact that you asked made a lot of pilots smarter about icing conditions. That's what these forums are all about.

Bob Gardner
 
tehmightypirate said:
Right but when everyone is saying you don't have to do what ATC tells you that's 100% wrong. What they should say is you don't have to LET ATC tell you what to do, nor do you have to let them make decisions for you, but you DO have to get clearance from them if they previously instructed you to do something different and you should advise them otherwise. And the OP never declared an emergency so 14 CFR 91.123(b) still applied until he says the magic words.
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Reading through the earlier posts, I get the feeling that our OP had a little misunderstanding on what ATC actually was communicating. I highly doubt that he had been "instructed" to fly at 4500'. I would guess that 4500' was suggested as an appropriate altitude, after he was gently reminded not to fly at 4000'.

And looking at the track log, I'm guessing that this occurred at 4:46 pm, while this whole descent thing happened at 6:00 pm, an hour and fifteen minutes later, and probably a handoff or two away. ATC likely didn't care what altitude he was flying, as long as it was an appropriate VFR altitude.

His understanding of when he is being controlled, and when he is in his own control will get better as he learns.


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N8558W/history/20140128/2137Z/KGKY/KPEZ/tracklog

(Also looking at the tracklog, he spent a lot of time at 4800', and was trolling for a second gentle altitude reminder.) :wink2:
 
AggieMike88 said:
Tunes would be changed if you only knew Jesse in person and his other hobby :yes:
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In the context of a pilot's forum, he is a new pilot with low hours and very limited knowledge of aircraft and weather. When confronted by knowledgable pilots, he exhibited defensive and immature behavior. His attitude is not conducive to learning.
I have no other need to know Jesse in person or his other hobby.
 
bobmrg said:
Actually, the fact that you asked made a lot of pilots smarter about icing conditions. That's what these forums are all about.

Bob Gardner
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AMEN!
 
RichNY said:
In the context of a pilot's forum, he is a new pilot with low hours and very limited knowledge of aircraft and weather. When confronted by knowledgable pilots, he exhibited defensive and immature behavior. His attitude is not conducive to learning.
I have no other need to know Jesse in person or his other hobby.
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Great, I have no need to hear you any more either.



I take it all in stride. But im the type of person that after hearing the same thing over and over... and OVER it wears on me.

How many pilots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

1 and 25 more to tell him how to do it.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Great, I have no need to hear you any more either.



I take it all in stride. But im the type of person that after hearing the same thing over and over... and OVER it wears on me.

How many pilots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

1 and 25 more to tell him how to do it.
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The only thing of concern is that you kept reiterating that you weren't picking up ice when in fact you were, you just couldn't see it since it was clear and smooth and you have a nice shiny new light colored paint job.
 
Henning said:
The only thing of concern is that you kept reiterating that you weren't picking up ice when in fact you were, you just couldn't see it since it was clear and smooth and you have a nice shiny new light colored paint job.
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I was just explaining my thought process at the time. Hard to acknowledge your picking up ice when you don't know you are.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I was just explaining my thought process at the time. Hard to acknowledge your picking up ice when you don't know you are.
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Yep, now you know better, whenever you encounter rain in sub freezing conditions, you are picking up ice. The scariest part is that you pick up ice on the tail around three times what you pick up on the wing.
 
Henning said:
Yep, now you know better, whenever you encounter rain in sub freezing conditions, you are picking up ice. The scariest part is that you pick up ice on the tail around three times what you pick up on the wing.
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Yes, knowledge is power and I've picked up some through the ordeal.
 
Henning said:
Yep, now you know better, whenever you encounter rain in sub freezing conditions, you are picking up ice. The scariest part is that you pick up ice on the tail around three times what you pick up on the wing.
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And we all know what a wing stall is like.

An elevator stall is A LOT worse, even at altitude, as you lose pitch control.

It ain't happening with a normal airframe and a reasonable CG. But it might with ice.

There are a number of accident reports out there of tailplane stalls occurring as flaps are extended. These are often fatal.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Yes, knowledge is power and I've picked up some through the ordeal.
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Well, thanks for undergoing it, it was a helpful discussion, especially for a Miami pilot like me. Now you know why you can post this sort of stuff anonymously in the Lessons Learned section :yes:
 
Jhernandez04 said:
How many pilots does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

1 and 25 more to tell him how to do it.
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Sorry, but you're way short of the number... see my reference to the one eyed cat. :D :D
 
How many pilots does it take to change a light bulb?
None, it is done by the automatic pilot.

How many pilots does it take to change a light bulb?
One - he just holds it and the world revolves around him.
 
MAKG1 said:
...There are a number of accident reports out there of tailplane stalls occurring as flaps are extended. These are often fatal.
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Now that right there is worth the price of admission!
 
MAKG1 said:
An elevator stall is A LOT worse, even at altitude, as you lose pitch control.

It ain't happening with a normal airframe and a reasonable CG. But it might with ice.
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?!?! Hold the phone.
A what? What is an elevator stall? (okay, obviously elevator failing) but due to exceeding critical angle of attack? Can't be that the plane would have to be stalled as well right?

Most elevators have have negative lift built into them too. My wheels are spinning. I want to know.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
?!?! Hold the phone.
A what? What is an elevator stall? (okay, obviously elevator failing) but due to exceeding critical angle of attack? Can't be that the plane would have to be stalled as well right?

Most elevators have have negative lift built into them too. My wheels are spinning. I want to know.
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Right, and if the elevator stalls and that negative lift quits, the nose will drop deepening the tail plane stall further.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
?!?! Hold the phone.
A what? What is an elevator stall? (okay, obviously elevator failing) but due to exceeding critical angle of attack? Can't be that the plane would have to be stalled as well right?

Most elevators have have negative lift built into them too. My wheels are spinning. I want to know.
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google "tailplane stall"
 
Henning said:
Do they both operate on the same band? I would think that center would run on 10cm to avoid weather block issues.
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I have no clue as to the frequencies used, but I'll bet that some judicious Googling would reveal the answer.

Bob
 
Yeah, that looks nasty.

flapchart_big.jpg
 
I've heard of a tail plane stall but not read up on it. It's interesting actually as it is much different then a wing stall. That would be a sinking feeling to have light controls forward but very very hard pulling aft. Anyway here was a good read if you haven't read it already. But in this case I can see when ice builds up and you are on approach, dropping flaps can be a very bad idea.

http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/182696-1.html?redirected=1
 
Update.


Return trip from KPEZ TO KGKY.
2/12/14 10:15 AM.


Planned for 5500ft but cloud cover made that impossible unless I wanted to fly in the clouds.

Climbed to 7500 and got above the scattered clouds/broken layers. It was really neat because at one point there were only clouds underneath me. VFR on top ;)



Figured out the rough engine problem was me. As I had no issues this trip because I leaned it properly.

Ran my right wing tip dry, engine sputtered: switch tank fuel pump on for increase in fuel pressure and then fuel pump off. Didn't lose any altitude, very nice.

Had to climb under the clouds once I got passed Waco, requested 5500ft, got there and it wasn't enough, requested 3500, wasn't enough so I stayed around 2700-3000 to remain VFR.

Little choppy! But it was sooooo smooth at 7500. A big headwind though. Ground speed was 105-125knots.
 

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simtech said:
I've heard of a tail plane stall but not read up on it. It's interesting actually as it is much different then a wing stall. That would be a sinking feeling to have light controls forward but very very hard pulling aft. Anyway here was a good read if you haven't read it already. But in this case I can see when ice builds up and you are on approach, dropping flaps can be a very bad idea.

http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/182696-1.html?redirected=1
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AC 91-51 discusses tailplane stalls.

Bob Gardner
 
Jhernandez04 said:
It was really neat because at one point there were only clouds underneath me. VFR on top ;)
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Warning! Nit picking!

Not VFR on top, it was VFR over the top. The terms have defined meanings in aviation (at least in the US) and if you get it right now it'll be easier later - think instrument rating.
 
Just curious why did you, "(I feld kinda vunerable switching to unicom)" was it because you thought you would need them for something? Vectoring to an airport, traffic separation, weather information?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
?!?! Hold the phone.
A what? What is an elevator stall? (okay, obviously elevator failing) but due to exceeding critical angle of attack? Can't be that the plane would have to be stalled as well right?

Most elevators have have negative lift built into them too. My wheels are spinning. I want to know.
Click to expand...

Sorry about the delay...I was just reviewing this thread and picked up on something. Several years ago, a commuter was on approach to Pasco, WA and picking up ice. Airplane was loaded within the envelope. When the pilot extended the flaps, the downwash from the wing impinging on the horizontal stabilizer exceeded its critical angle of attack...the tail stalled, and the plane pitched over with insufficient altitude for recovery.

Find an illustration of airflow over a wing with extended flaps; the boundary layer hugs the top of the wing and follows the curvature of the extended flaps. That is downwash.

Bob Gardner
 
Good thread!

OP could have used xx00 altitude VFR since he was on FF, with ATC coordination. I've done it!

Tim- does FZRA = SLD? Referring to post #32 earlier in the thread.
 
DFH65 said:
Just curious why did you, "(I feld kinda vunerable switching to unicom)" was it because you thought you would need them for something? Vectoring to an airport, traffic separation, weather information?
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I felt vulnerable because if I needed emergency vectoring I wouldn't be able to ask for it. They reported freezing rain north of my destination and then gave me the boot... was kinda sobering. But no worries I landed safely.
 
Mike Todd , at the time married to elizabeth Taylor, owned a lodestar. His pilot tried this and it did not end well if I recall correctly.
 
TheHulk, I am glad you made it through that to make this thread. I know you took a beating here but this was a great thread and I learned some good life saving information. Thanks for sharing!
 
JasonM said:
TheHulk, I am glad you made it through that to make this thread. I know you took a beating here but this was a great thread and I learned some good life saving information. Thanks for sharing!
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Your welcome brother.


Apparently I have more real life icing experience then a lot of pilots, at 68hrs!! Lol
 
Nice. Getting on top is awesome.
I have been above the clouds 2 times and photos never do it justice.
beautiful up there.

Nice work too.

Now Ahem.... Go take your checkride man ;)
 
bobmrg said:
Sorry about the delay...I was just reviewing this thread and picked up on something. Several years ago, a commuter was on approach to Pasco, WA and picking up ice. Airplane was loaded within the envelope. When the pilot extended the flaps, the downwash from the wing impinging on the horizontal stabilizer exceeded its critical angle of attack...the tail stalled, and the plane pitched over with insufficient altitude for recovery.

Find an illustration of airflow over a wing with extended flaps; the boundary layer hugs the top of the wing and follows the curvature of the extended flaps. That is downwash.

Bob Gardner
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Out of curiosity.
Is there less chance of tailplane stall in a T-Tail?
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Lol woah.... slow down captain Henning. Can't take a joke I see....
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What I can or can't take is irrelevant, there is no joke about flying into freezing rain, it's as funny as rape, that appears to not have sunk in on you yet. Again, not my worry.
 
Henning said:
What I can or can't take is irrelevant, there is no joke about flying into freezing rain, it's as funny as rape, that appears to not have sunk in on you yet. Again, not my worry.
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Well, I know one cessna 310 I'm not recommending to my friends.....


Shall I just sit in the corner and cry about my run in with freezing rain? Or just put the barrel in my mouth and pull the trigger?..... lighten up, thought we already covered the "lessons learned part"?
 
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