Cross Country & Freezing Rain

[Jhernandez04]

I planned a cross country for yesterday from KGKY to KPEZ (via KACT&KBAZ)

Did all the weather briefing and research. Flight breifer told me I was good to go, expect tail winds and clear skys till Austin, then the tops would be at 7,000ft. No icing is to be expected.

Stayed at 4,500ft for the whole trip. IAS was 130 on average and I had a ground speed variance from 150-169knots. I was smoking!!! Was pretty awesome to say the least.

I did encounter a few issues, both on the serious side.

1. While crusing to my first checkpoint (KACT) my plane kept wanting to climb past my cruising altitude (pretty normal for a under gross 235) so I trimmed a little and tried to reduce power to 65%, the engine stumbled and I returned to full power, but trimmed even more to help with the backpressure on the yoke. I had to maintain a lot of forward pressure to keep the nose down.

I experimented with carb heat and mixture, nothing seemed to help when I would try to pull power to help keep it from climbing. I always made sure I was over or around some sort of airport when trying these things.

I made the decision that keeping it at 75% wouldnt hurt anything except making my arm fatigue a bit no worries. Trim was set do full down (is this okay?).

2. After reaching my 2nd major checkpoint (KBAZ) it started to rain and my windshield was rolling the droplets off. I did not freak out as nothing was sticking to the windshield at that point. The OSAT was 27* so I was concerned of icing but this was my first time to fly in rain and below freezing so I stayed calm and vigilant. Always watching for signs of ice on my thinest surfaces, nothing was visable but I knew it was only a matter of time. 5 minutes pass into the rain and San Antonio Approach informed me that there was a Pirep north of pleasanton of freezing rain @3000ft. Not exactly sure what freezing rain looked like, I confirmed the report and explained that I was flying in rain myself which I wasnt sure if it could be classified as freezing or not because nothing was sticking to the wings.

At this point im cruising @ 165knots and I have 12 minutes till KPEZ. At any point I noticed ice on my leading edge I had planned to put it down at the nearest airport. San Antonio Approach told me I was clear from traffic to KEPZ and told me to change freq and squawk VFR. I didnt want to but did as I was told (I feld kinda vunerable switching to unicom) After the initial letdown of SA Approach kicking me off their freq I quickly realized that I can handle the situation by myself. Hell... I only had 10 minutes to go at this point. Those droplets were starting to stick to my windshield and disrupt my visability, not drastically but by at least 30-40%. I was on high alert for the rate of accumulation. Nothing visable on my wings, felt safe aside from windshield.

Pleasanton spotted, Blue water towers spotted south of runway. Announched trafic that I was inbound for runway 34 (winds 350@ 8 gusting 15)

At this point my windshield looks like I drove through a swarm of bee's and am having trouble seeing out of it clearly. Periphial vision is my friend right now.

Back to the engine sputtering when I pull power, I made the decision that due to having no traffic between me and the runway that I would get close to the right base but above pattern altitude @2500 (I figured that would allow me to make the runway if the engine quit)

Turned for long final obviously high, pulled power and to my amazement it was running perfect... Maybe I need to get better at leaning it out? Topic of discussion for the ride with my CFI.

Anyways, i pulled power and she sank like a rock which is good, kept it straight and landed a really nice landing on a wet runway (first for me) the windshield turned out to be a non issue because the information I needed to land was recieved from the side windows, I only used the windshield to make sure I was nice and straight. Greased

**Super Relieved**


Theres a pilot on the ground watching me taxi, he owns a Twin Comanche and asks me how Im doing. I say "fine, just glad to be out of that weather" he responds by saying thats exactly why he's down on the ground. We look at my airplane and I quickly realize I just had my first icing encounter.... it was about as thick as construction paper but clear as glass. (at this point I realize the freezing rain I knew nothing about was actually the rain I was flying in)

Due to my research I know that most planes can handle a decent amount of accumilation of ice, but I make no plans to ever find out. This was a great lesson learned and I feel like im a better pilot because of it. Hopefully when I fly back from work (in 2 weeks) I can get another tail wind but with good weather!

Sorry for the long winded post.

You can find my trip on flightaware.com tail number N8558W

 

[frfly172]

Glad you made it safely.

 

[Jhernandez04]

Glad you made it safely.

Yea me too, the pilot on the ground said that I wasnt in any danger with the amount of ice I had on the plane, but had my route taken me further through the freezing rain it could of been a big problem.

I agree with him, but I would never of let it got that bad as I mentioned in the first post had I seen the slighest indication of ice on my flight surfaces I was going to put the plane down at the nearest airport. I know my minimums with ice (even though this is my first encounter). My minimums are... any ice on the wings and I land.... lol I think those are good minimums?

 

[Clark1961]

My minimums are... any ice on the wings and I land.... lol I think those are good minimums?

Landing immediately at an airport may not be an option. What will you do then?

 

[Jhernandez04]

Landing immediately at an airport may not be an option. What will you do then?

Depends on circumstances. My 235 is undergross by 500 lbs usually. Had I had a lot of ice. I would of taken the nose down trim out and kept full power. And looked for a runway. Changed frequencies back to SA Approach and asked for immediate vectors for nearest airport.

or declare emergency if needed.

If off field landing was needed I would look for a farm field or lake. Bleed off as much speed as possible and keep the nose wheel off the ground. Going into water I'd pull nose up for a stall so I entered the water ass first.

 

[tehmightypirate]

Fascinating story. Having never encountered icing it's good for me to hear these sorts of stories from similar pilots. Living in Maine I'm quite aware how freezing rain works so I probably would have turned around before I got into it. That stuff can build up REALLY fast in the right conditions. Sounds like you knew what you were getting into though so, for you, it sounds like the right decisions were made.

Really curious about that full nose down trim.

 

[tehmightypirate]

Depends on circumstances. My 235 is undergross by 500 lbs usually. Had I had a lot of ice. I would of taken the nose down trim out and kept full power. And looked for a runway. Changed frequencies back to SA Approach and asked for immediate vectors for nearest airport.

or declare emergency if needed.

If off field landing was needed I would look for a farm field or lake. Bleed off as much speed as possible and keep the nose wheel off the ground. Going into water I'd pull nose up for a stall so I entered the water ass first.

The problem with freezing rain (as you found out) is you can loose visibility CRAZY fast. I've driven into freezing rain where my windshield went from clear to helplessly blind in about 2 minutes. 10 minutes of driving with almost constant squirts of windshield washer fluid and I had a 1/8" of ice on my wiper blades and mirrors. Had to pull over three times to scrape things off before my full-blast defroster and the rain switching over to snow finally took care of things.

That said, it sounds to me like you had MORE than enough outs but just be aware that you had a little bit of luck. I'd keep in mind that your minimums should be not getting ice ever. At least, that's my minimums.

 

[Jhernandez04]

Fascinating story. Having never encountered icing it's good for me to hear these sorts of stories from similar pilots. Living in Maine I'm quite aware how freezing rain works so I probably would have turned around before I got into it. That stuff can build up REALLY fast in the right conditions. Sounds like you knew what you were getting into though so, for you, it sounds like the right decisions were made.

Really curious about that full nose down trim.

The only indication of freezing rain I had was encountering it first then the pirep. I didn't know it was freezing rain. I thought it was regular rain.

12 minutes from my airport, diverting seemed too extreme. I made that call based on visual cues and ground speed. Had I been an 30+ minutes away, I would of considered a diversion if the accumulation was visible.

 

[N2124v]

Don't forget that you aren't just dealing with extra weight with ice, your airfoil has changed.

 

[azure]

I think you know (and probably knew) that if it's below freezing and it's raining, it's likely to start freezing on the airframe any second. In that situation, it's best to high tail it back out of the rain, if you can. Once your windshield ices up, you can bet there's plenty of ice on the wings and tail. You didn't say whether you used flaps for the landing, but the conventional wisdom in that situation is to keep them up.

Glad you made it. That's one cupful from the "luck" bucket into the "experience" bucket.

(Personally, my BS meter goes through the roof whenever a LockMart briefer tells me I'm "good to go". I've stopped using them for weather briefings because my first -- and to date only -- VFR into IMC encounter happened after a briefer told me something like that and I decided to trust his judgment, when my own judgment was less optimistic.)

 

[masloki]

I haven't been in that situation and really hope I don't walk that decision tree. But, I think with OAT below 32 F and rain in the air, you are going to get ice on the bird. The metal is going to match the air temperature which means freezing action. If the rain water is warm enough, it may warm the aluminum up, but not really a wager I would want to take. I would have opted to go around, if it was a patch of rain, or do a 180 and change my plans accordingly.

I can't speak for the 235, but it seems really odd to run out of trim in cruise if you operated within limits. So, either a trim problem, or perhaps a weight and balance problem.

 

[Jhernandez04]

I did a weight and balance and was well within limits.

I did not turn around because I was 12 minutes from the airport and there was no visable accumulation. Did I do the right thing?

 

[kevmor99]

Don't mess with icing, this could have ended very differently. When you said it was less than 32F and raining, the risk factor went way up. Here's an AOPA flyer on icing:

http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/Pilot Resources/ASI/Safety Advisors/sa11.pdf

Also, could the trim issue have been related to icing on the tail?

 

[Jhernandez04]

Don't mess with icing, this could have ended very differently. When you said it was less than 32F and raining, the risk factor went way up. Here's an AOPA flyer on icing:

http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/Pilot Resources/ASI/Safety Advisors/sa11.pdf

Also, could the trim issue have been related to icing on the tail?

No,trimming issue was not ice related. Was after departure not during arrival.

 

[marcoseddi]

Nice post!

 

[bobmrg]

I planned a cross country for yesterday from KGKY to KPEZ (via KACT&KBAZ)

Did all the weather briefing and research. Flight breifer told me I was good to go, expect tail winds and clear skys till Austin, then the tops would be at 7,000ft. No icing is to be expected.

Stayed at 4,500ft for the whole trip. IAS was 130 on average and I had a ground speed variance from 150-169knots. I was smoking!!! Was pretty awesome to say the least.

I did encounter a few issues, both on the serious side.

1. While crusing to my first checkpoint (KACT) my plane kept wanting to climb past my cruising altitude (pretty normal for a under gross 235) so I trimmed a little and tried to reduce power to 65%, the engine stumbled and I returned to full power, but trimmed even more to help with the backpressure on the yoke. I had to maintain a lot of forward pressure to keep the nose down.

I experimented with carb heat and mixture, nothing seemed to help when I would try to pull power to help keep it from climbing. I always made sure I was over or around some sort of airport when trying these things.

I made the decision that keeping it at 75% wouldnt hurt anything except making my arm fatigue a bit no worries. Trim was set do full down (is this okay?).

2. After reaching my 2nd major checkpoint (KBAZ) it started to rain and my windshield was rolling the droplets off. I did not freak out as nothing was sticking to the windshield at that point. The OSAT was 27* so I was concerned of icing but this was my first time to fly in rain and below freezing so I stayed calm and vigilant. Always watching for signs of ice on my thinest surfaces, nothing was visable but I knew it was only a matter of time. 5 minutes pass into the rain and San Antonio Approach informed me that there was a Pirep north of pleasanton of freezing rain @3000ft. Not exactly sure what freezing rain looked like, I confirmed the report and explained that I was flying in rain myself which I wasnt sure if it could be classified as freezing or not because nothing was sticking to the wings.

At this point im cruising @ 165knots and I have 12 minutes till KPEZ. At any point I noticed ice on my leading edge I had planned to put it down at the nearest airport. San Antonio Approach told me I was clear from traffic to KEPZ and told me to change freq and squawk VFR. I didnt want to but did as I was told (I feld kinda vunerable switching to unicom) After the initial letdown of SA Approach kicking me off their freq I quickly realized that I can handle the situation by myself. Hell... I only had 10 minutes to go at this point. Those droplets were starting to stick to my windshield and disrupt my visability, not drastically but by at least 30-40%. I was on high alert for the rate of accumulation. Nothing visable on my wings, felt safe aside from windshield.

Pleasanton spotted, Blue water towers spotted south of runway. Announched trafic that I was inbound for runway 34 (winds 350@ 8 gusting 15)

At this point my windshield looks like I drove through a swarm of bee's and am having trouble seeing out of it clearly. Periphial vision is my friend right now.

Back to the engine sputtering when I pull power, I made the decision that due to having no traffic between me and the runway that I would get close to the right base but above pattern altitude @2500 (I figured that would allow me to make the runway if the engine quit)

Turned for long final obviously high, pulled power and to my amazement it was running perfect... Maybe I need to get better at leaning it out? Topic of discussion for the ride with my CFI.

Anyways, i pulled power and she sank like a rock which is good, kept it straight and landed a really nice landing on a wet runway (first for me) the windshield turned out to be a non issue because the information I needed to land was recieved from the side windows, I only used the windshield to make sure I was nice and straight. Greased

**Super Relieved**


Theres a pilot on the ground watching me taxi, he owns a Twin Comanche and asks me how Im doing. I say "fine, just glad to be out of that weather" he responds by saying thats exactly why he's down on the ground. We look at my airplane and I quickly realize I just had my first icing encounter.... it was about as thick as construction paper but clear as glass. (at this point I realize the freezing rain I knew nothing about was actually the rain I was flying in)

Due to my research I know that most planes can handle a decent amount of accumilation of ice, but I make no plans to ever find out. This was a great lesson learned and I feel like im a better pilot because of it. Hopefully when I fly back from work (in 2 weeks) I can get another tail wind but with good weather!

Sorry for the long winded post.

You can find my trip on flightaware.com tail number N8558W

Some interesting information here: http://tinyurl.com/n5vflyc

Weight of airframe icing is never the problem. Ice accretion occurs first and most rapidly on small-diameter surfaces, like OAT gauges. The horizontal stabilizer has a much smaller leading edge diameter than the leading edge of the wing, so you are icing up back there before you see anything on the wing.

Iced-up turboprops have crashed short of runways with full power applied; I think you were lucky. Go to www.avwxworkshops.com and read some of Scott's free information, then consider buying his "Ice Is Not Nice" program,because you have some serious misconceptions on the subject.

Bob Gardner

 

[tehmightypirate]

I did a weight and balance and was well within limits.

I did not turn around because I was 12 minutes from the airport and there was no visable accumulation. Did I do the right thing?

I'd say that you did the right thing but only because it turned out okay. Basically, it was a real crapshoot either way. I wouldn't say you made an unsafe decision but it seems that a more conservative person might have turned around, but neither decision seems wrong to me. To me I think you were right on the line of "safe to continue" and "not safe to continue".

For what it's worth, and given your circumstances, if I had gone into the rain with that 27°F OAT (that's where I would have turned around) and seen a proven lack of accumulation I would also have to ponder wither to turn around or not when you got the freezing rain PIREP.

So, yes, interesting story but I would chock this up as a learning experience and try to avoid repeating it. That's just my personal opinion, though, don't count it for much because I'm definitely no authority on airframe icing and such being a mostly fair-weather flyer.

 

[dell30rb]

I did not freak out as nothing was sticking to the windshield at that point. The OSAT was 27* so I was concerned of icing but this was my first time to fly in rain and below freezing so I stayed calm and vigilant. Always watching for signs of ice on my thinest surfaces, nothing was visable but I knew it was only a matter of time.

At this point, you should have made a move to get out of the precipitation, land and check the weather. Do a 180 (or head in a direction where it looks clear) and then check your charts, find an airport and land.

I know the briefer did not forecast any ice. (PS, good job getting a briefing) but the folks at NOAA will miss things and you just learned that lesson.

You might not realize it, but this could have gotten really ugly, really fast.

 

[Jhernandez04]

At this point, you should have made a move to get out of the precipitation, land and check the weather. Do a 180 (or head in a direction where it looks clear) and then check your charts, find an airport and land.

I understand the thought process but by the time I did a 180 which would of been around 1-2 minutes I would of been 10 minutes from airport. And diverting would of put me 5/6 more minutes out. For a total diversion time of 6-8 minutes.

With no visable icing and my destination only minutes away, why divert?

 

[dell30rb]

With no visable icing and my destination only minutes away, why divert?

180 and diverting is only one "out". Its not a one size fits all approach, but most of the time it works, and its what they teach VFR pilots who might fly into IMC or otherwise bad conditions.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I understand the thought process but by the time I did a 180 which would of been around 1-2 minutes I would of been 10 minutes from airport. And diverting would of put me 5/6 more minutes out. For a total diversion time of 6-8 minutes.

With no visable icing and my destination only minutes away, why divert?

So you don't die.

 

[kevmor99]

With no visable icing and my destination only minutes away, why divert?

It's only a matter of time in visible precipitation (rain) and freezing temps. before you get ice right? I'm always looking at freezing levels when the flight may have visible precipitation. Was this a student cross country? If the forecast was showing a good chance of rain and freezing temps. it seems like the CFI didn't look over the flight well.

 

[AggieMike88]

From this story, it sounds like you'd benefit from some of ScottD's weather training products....

Check out this page for what's available on his premium (aka pay for once, own for life) workshops: http://avwxworkshops.com/workshops-titles.php?type=premium

Two come to mind immediately: Ice is not Nice and Mastering the Skew-T diagram

The Skew-T, used properly, will be the tool that can help you determine what if any condensate will be at the altitude you're flying at, and at this time of year, are you going to encounter water and freezing temperatures. From your story, it sounds like you were in VFR conditions, but had the luck of being in a rain shower surrounded by very cold air.

Scott does a great job teaching these subjects... If you want a sample, check out his Youtube Channel, AvWxWorshops.

 

[Jhernandez04]

It's only a matter of time in visible precipitation (rain) and freezing temps. before you get ice right? I'm always looking at freezing levels when the flight may have visible precipitation. Was this a student cross country? If the forecast was showing a good chance of rain and freezing temps. it seems like the CFI didn't look over the flight well.

We actually looked it over very thoroughly and nothing indicated rain or freezing rain. I even called my coworker who was working 25 minutes away from pleasanton and there was no indication of rain. Just cloud cover.

There were no pireps for the route and the freezing level was 10,000ft.
Not sure how much more thorough you require.

Of course hindsite is 20/20 right?

 

[AggieMike88]

We actually looked it over very thoroughly and nothing indicated rain or freezing rain. I even called my coworker who was working 25 minutes away from pleasanton and there was no indication of rain. Just cloud cover.

There were no pireps for the route and the freezing level was 10,000ft.
Not sure how much more thorough you require.

Of course hindsite is 20/20 right?

Just because there's no super cooled water droplets reaching the ground doesn't mean they aren't there in the air.

What was the date/time/altitude you encountered this? Perhaps someone with better historical Skew-T fu can pull the chart and post it for us to pick at.

 

[TMetzinger]

You need to get your engine looked at.

Freezing rain can pop up unforecast and is probably the most dangerous icing encounter you can have. In anything other than a jet with hot wings freezing rain is an immediate divert for me, probably a 180 until I can figure another option.

 

[Jhernandez04]

Just because there's no super cooled water droplets reaching the ground doesn't mean they aren't there in the air.

What was the date/time/altitude you encountered this? Perhaps someone with better historical Skew-T fu can pull the chart and post it for us to pick at.

Im learning more and more!



1/28/14 4:55pm ish. 4,500ft east of San Antonio.

 

[Jhernandez04]

You need to get your engine looked at.

Freezing rain can pop up unforecast and is probably the most dangerous icing encounter you can have. In anything other than a jet with hot wings freezing rain is an immediate divert for me, probably a 180 until I can figure another option.

So just for clarification.

Freezing rain is: liquid rain when the temperature is lower then 32*?


And my question is, with my airport being so close do you still divert? The twin comanche pilot waited about 25 minutes after i landed and took off.

 

[MAKG1]

You need to get your engine looked at.

I'm not seeing how the engine could explain full nose down trim. Nose up, sure.

I can't explain it without resorting to control surfaces, like a trim wheel that doesn't go all the way down, or a significant aft CG, or a piece of something stuck on the vertical stabilizer (or something else adding drag above and behind CG). Maybe some ice on the back end adding weight.

 

[Jhernandez04]

I'm not seeing how the engine could explain full nose down trim. Nose up, sure.

I can't explain it without resorting to control surfaces, like a trim wheel that doesn't go all the way down, or a significant aft CG, or a piece of something stuck on the vertical stabilizer (or something else adding drag above and behind CG). Maybe some ice on the back end adding weight.

There was zero ice when I discovered the trim issue.


The reason I needed so much trim was because the plane kept trying to climb, due to using full throttle. To keep me from bench pressing the yoke down the whole flight, I used full downward trim. But I still had to use pressure to keep the nose down.

It wouldnt of been an issue if I could of sorted out the whole engine stumbling thing with reduced power. It was most likely a mixture problem at altitude, which I was too chiken to take more power out to try and fix the problem. Thats my guess anyways, because when I had to reduce power for landing it worked fine.


Its important to note that the weight of the plane was roughly 2300lbs at takeoff. Gross is 2900lbs, so as you can imagine it wanted to climb in the cold air.

 

[dell30rb]

And my question is, with my airport being so close do you still divert?

What if.. you pressed on and the freezing rain got worse? Just because its your closest airport does not mean it is the best option. If the freezing rain intensified, 10 minutes is more than enough to turn your PA28 into a Popsicle.

 

[TMetzinger]

So just for clarification.

Freezing rain is: liquid rain when the temperature is lower then 32*?


And my question is, with my airport being so close do you still divert? The twin comanche pilot waited about 25 minutes after i landed and took off.

you need to study up on it a bit (google supercooled liquid droplets), but freezing rain is what you get when you have water from warm air above falling through freezing air. It's liquid until it strikes your plane than instantly freezes, even in temps above freezing. It's brought down transport category airplanes certified for known icing when they remained in the conditions.

When you get into it, you get out of it, right the **** now. I wouldn't fly forward for one more minute even if my airplane is just ten minutes away. I'd do a 180, find a place to land back in the "good" air behind me, and try again later.

 

[Jhernandez04]

What if.. you pressed on and the freezing rain got worse? Just because its your closest airport does not mean it is the best option. If the freezing rain intensified, 10 minutes is more than enough to turn your PA28 into a Popsicle.

Good point, and I agree 100%.

But is there a point when you use your pilot descretion in making that go/no-go decision? Granted, I didnt know I was getting that thin layer of clear ice, but I on the lookout for any type of visual buildup on any surface.

I keep telling myself I made the right decision based on the information I had at the time. But, I understand that it could of gotten out of hand rather quickly. I feel like I was diligent in the fact that I was looking for it on the surfaces but negligent in the fact that I wasnt sure what freezing rain was.

I would not want to do that again, obviously. But the amount of rain, which was light and no visual cues on the surfaces of my plane made me feel like 12 minutes of flight time was within my abilities.

I still feel like the range yesterday in those conditions would of been around 1 hour. Knowing what I know now.

 

[Clark1961]

Perhaps someone with better historical Skew-T fu can pull the chart and post it for us to pick at.

This may be helpful to many folks besides the OP.

At least the OP is thinking about things and asking questions. I wasn't there and can't guess what he saw. I've flown through little showers that I was fairly certain were freezing rain. By little I mean tiny - less than 30 seconds transit time. That's okay. Much more time in freezing rain and it can be really bad, like falling out of the sky bad. A previous owner of the 'kota got a 709 ride because he pressed on in an instrument approach with ice accumulating. Said he was full throttle on final and couldn't maintain altitude.

Freezing rain and freezing fog have killed many folk. To the OP, keep asking and learning.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

So just for clarification.

Freezing rain is: liquid rain when the temperature is lower then 32*?


And my question is, with my airport being so close do you still divert? The twin comanche pilot waited about 25 minutes after i landed and took off.

Freezing rain is rain that is freezing as it falls or as it hits something.

You said you were ten whole minutes away.

How long do you think you could have kept it in the air if you had hit hard freezing rain?

effing a right I would divert.

The twinkie pilot probably checked the weather carefully from on the ground and was planning on getting above it quickly.

 

[jordane93]

Glad everything worked out. It could have turned out a lot worse. I went flying from KHPN to KRIC in a Cherokee yesterday IFR. The weather going wasn't bad, an overcast layer at 8000 but it was freezing, I believe something like -20 when I was cruising at 6000. Before I left, I checked the weather again because that snow storm was going to hit at night but just making sure it wouldn't get to me when I departed. Everything looked good. I got to the Delaware River and the visibility was pretty bad and looked pretty foggy and was shocked because it was unforcasted. It eventually cleared up. But for about 30 minutes I was constantly monitoring my wings and windshield and using pitot heat and carb heat just to make sure

 

[Clark1961]

When you get into it, you get out of it, right the **** now. I wouldn't fly forward for one more minute even if my airport is just ten minutes away. I'd do a 180, find a place to land back in the "good" air behind me, and try again later.

Sometimes that's all you can do is try again later. Sure, maybe ya coulda made it but that'll look pretty darn pathetic on the tombstone (and we're not talking pizza here). I spent a couple extra nights in Riverton WY last month because of marginal weather (mostly freezing fog). Maybe I could have gotten through the layer quick enough but then again maybe not and there were no reports of what was above the fog. It sucked but that's the way it was. Time to spare, go by air.

 

[Clark1961]

Glad everything worked out. It could have turned out a lot worse. I went flying from KHPN to KRIC in a Cherokee yesterday IFR. The weather going wasn't bad, an overcast layer at 8000 but it was freezing, I believe something like -20 when I was cruising at 6000. Before I left, I checked the weather again because that snow storm was going to hit at night but just making sure it wouldn't get to me when I departed. Everything looked good. I got to the Delaware River and the visibility was pretty bad and looked pretty foggy and was shocked because it was unforcasted. It eventually cleared up. But for about 30 minutes I was constantly monitoring my wings and windshield and using pitot heat and carb heat just to make sure

At 20 below the clouds are probably glaciated. Any pireps of ice?

 

[AggieMike88]

The reason I needed so much trim was because the plane kept trying to climb, due to using full throttle. To keep me from bench pressing the yoke down the whole flight, I used full downward trim. But I still had to use pressure to keep the nose down.

I would like to take a break from the ice discussion and come back to the "I'm still climbing and need full nose down trim"....

Why were you barrelling along full throttle? You said in your first post:

1. While crusing to my first checkpoint (KACT) my plane kept wanting to climb past my cruising altitude (pretty normal for a under gross 235) so I trimmed a little and tried to reduce power to 65%, the engine stumbled and I returned to full power, but trimmed even more to help with the backpressure on the yoke. I had to maintain a lot of forward pressure to keep the nose down.

While it's possible you might have the terminology mixed up in the telling of the story... likely you've got your wire's crossed in how to get a particular "%HP".

From "the engine stumbled", it sorta sounds like you were working the mixture in your attempt to get a particular power setting. Is this correct? And when it sputtered, you just pushed the mixture back to rich or full rich.

During this episode, was the throttle still full in? How about the prop? Because the aircraft was still wanting to climb, even with all that nose down trim, I'm gonna guess that you had at least the throttle full in.

Dialing in full nose down trim is getting you out of a caution area to a potential danger area....

So let's review your POH... Check the section that says for a particular altitude and temp, what inches HG you want the throttle to be set at and what RPM you should have the prop at in order to achieve a particular % horsepower, TAS, and GPH. Hint: This isn't full forward on these controls. for a 65% power condition, you're likely should be setting 21-22" Manifold Pressure, and the prop at 2200-2300 RPM.

What ever the correct numbers are, This power setting will still give you plenty of speed, increase your fuel economy, and would permit you to cruise lightly loaded without all that nose down trim in play.

Once your power setting is dialed in, and your stable at straight and level, NOW you can slowly lean the mixture until you reach the desired setting.

So if I was in the right seat on this flight, and you just commented "Wow, I gotta use full nose down trim, and I'm still pressing on the yoke", I'd would gently ask, "why not retard the throttle and set the correct power and RPM setting?"

Hopefully you're catching on that the reason the aircraft wanted to continue to climb and you needed all that nose down trim is that you had too much power in the mix. Remember "pitch for speed, power for altitude"? It applies at cruise as much as when in the landing pattern.


I'm bringing this up because, based on your story and that you're still a new-ish pilot with a big hoss of a nice airplane, you might be developing an improper habit or method of using the CS prop system that's gonna hurt you some day. And now's the time to figure out the bad habit and correct it.

Again, review the POH and practice with your instructor what power and prop settings are needed for the six phases of flight: Climb, Cruise Climb, Cruise, Cruise Descent, Descent, and Final Approach. Climb is usually the only time all levers are forward.

If it would help you, you are invited to come fly with me in the C182 and I'll be happy to demonstrate how I take what I've shared and apply it.

----------------------------

PS.... I'm also wondering how "within specs" is the rigging on your aircraft. Your PA28-235 is the Piper answer to the C182P I fly. I don't think I've ever needed a monster amount of nose down trim, even when I have been solo, half fuel, and full throttle and top of green arc prop. Your experience on this trip has me curious.....

 

[Jhernandez04]

I would like to take a break from the ice discussion and come back to the "I'm still climbing and need full nose down trim"....

Why were you barrelling along full throttle? You said in your first post:



While it's possible you might have the terminology mixed up in the telling of the story... likely you've got your wire's crossed in how to get a particular "%HP".

From "the engine stumbled", it sorta sounds like you were working the mixture in your attempt to get a particular power setting. Is this correct? And when it sputtered, you just pushed the mixture back to rich or full rich.

During this episode, was the throttle still full in? How about the prop? Because the aircraft was still wanting to climb, even with all that nose down trim, I'm gonna guess that you had at least the throttle full in.

Dialing in full nose down trim is getting you out of a caution area to a potential danger area....

So let's review your POH... Check the section that says for a particular altitude and temp, what inches HG you want the throttle to be set at and what RPM you should have the prop at in order to achieve a particular % horsepower, TAS, and GPH. Hint: This isn't full forward on these controls. for a 65% power condition, you're likely should be setting 21-22" Manifold Pressure, and the prop at 2200-2300 RPM.

What ever the correct numbers are, This power setting will still give you plenty of speed, increase your fuel economy, and would permit you to cruise lightly loaded without all that nose down trim in play.

Once your power setting is dialed in, and your stable at straight and level, NOW you can slowly lean the mixture until you reach the desired setting.

So if I was in the right seat on this flight, and you just commented "Wow, I gotta use full nose down trim, and I'm still pressing on the yoke", I'd would gently ask, "why not retard the throttle and set the correct power and RPM setting?"

Hopefully you're catching on that the reason the aircraft wanted to continue to climb and you needed all that nose down trim is that you had too much power in the mix. Remember "pitch for speed, power for altitude"? It applies at cruise as much as when in the landing pattern.


I'm bringing this up because, based on your story and that you're still a new-ish pilot with a big hoss of a nice airplane, you might be developing an improper habit or method of using the CS prop system that's gonna hurt you some day. And now's the time to figure out the bad habit and correct it.

Again, review the POH and practice with your instructor what power and prop settings are needed for the six phases of flight: Climb, Cruise Climb, Cruise, Cruise Descent, Descent, and Final Approach. Climb is usually the only time all levers are forward.

If it would help you, you are invited to come fly with me in the C182 and I'll be happy to demonstrate how I take what I've shared and apply it.

----------------------------

PS.... I'm also wondering how "within specs" is the rigging on your aircraft. Your PA28-235 is the Piper answer to the C182P I fly. I don't think I've ever needed a monster amount of nose down trim, even when I have been solo, half fuel, and full throttle and top of green arc prop. Your experience on this trip has me curious.....

Well I should add that its a Fixed Pitch Prop. So its pretty easy to set power %'s based off of engine RPM.

I was full power & full rich @4,500ft. almost neutral trim.

Seeing as though it wanted to climb through my ATC asigned altitude, I put turned the trim to 50% down. Still required forward pressure of the yoke. So I tried to pull power (throttle, NOT mixture) it hiccuped a little and I went full power to smooth it out. I then put the trim to about 90-95% down, leaving a little room to wiggle so I didnt stress any parts (my thinking anyways)

So I started leaning it out (lean rough to smooth they say) but as soon as I took mixuture out it started hiccuping again. Full mixture, problem solved.

I monitered RPM for a DIP or slow decrease. Never happened, but I added carb heat for a few minutes, 50-75rpm decrease, never increased or moved. Took carb heat out, went back to full RPM.

Played that cat and mouse game a few more times. My guess is that if I would of just tried to pull more power then it would of cleaned up, I just didnt want to pull it incase it stopped spinning. It was running like a top with full throttle, why mess with it? All I had to do was keep the nose down.

That was my line of thinking anyways. I've never flown it in cold weather like this though, so not sure what I experienced.