Cross Country & Freezing Rain

ElPaso Pilot said:
27 Degrees and rain is bad. Looking out the window for ice doesn't count.

Lower is warmer.

It's not "good below 3000'", it's good below 3000' agl.

You stated "2500 was the only other altitude that I would of been cleared for." That is wrong. You departed an airport at 628' and arrived at an airport that was 430'. Any altitude below 3628' on departure and 3430' on arrival was good.

Not sure why you tried to level off at 4000'. That's an IFR altitude.

You stated "they told me to remain at 4500." You misunderstood them. ATC can't make you remain at 4500'. He only suggested one of many appropriate options.


You should never have flown into wet precipitation at that temp, certainly not in that plane with your hours.

You could have flown lower, around, or reversed course to avoid the rain or reach warmer temperatures. It doesn't matter that you were "almost there."

It might be time to spend a few bucks and review this flight on the ground with a CFI. Sounds like you need to be more comfortable with your options, particularly with what ATC can and cannot order you to do, and how to deal with avoiding icing conditions in the first place.

You got lucky. That could easily have poofed your windscreen opaque in seconds, not minutes, without even considering loss of lift ... then what would your options have been, as a low time VFR pilot?
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Yea I understand I need training and experience. Thats the whole point of the thread.

what would I have done? Called atc and requested vectors. Turned on defroster, turned all my attention on my instruments.

Do exactly as told by atc. Just like mr. "Mayday mayday mayday" did.

that is what I would of done.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I had no way to determine that other then watching my surfaces very closely.

One of my mistakes was thinking it was just rain. The whole freezing rain term kinda confused me, I was expecting hale or something. Not actual liquid rain. And the fact it was rolling off my windshield just confirmed my false belief that it was just rain. It wasn't until a minute after the pirep that I thought to myself.... ****, this must be the freezing rain... fu.c*.

then I said "San antonio approach I'm going to start my decent"
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Look up the ATR crash at Roselawn IL, rain can stay liquid well below freezing, and it can become overwhelming fast. You had a good encounter that taught you how this crap works without biting you in the ass. If above freezing temperatures are available, head for them immediately when the rain starts regardless how light, because you don't know when it'll get heavy unless you have onboard RADAR (real RADAR, not NEXRAD which is old data) looking up into the clouds. Warm temps are your friend.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Yea I believe I already addressed that I was at full power with only 2300lbs. In cold air. With a 6 cylinder 240hp engine.

She wanted to climb. And I didn't want to pull power to keep her from climbing.
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While I'm not familiar with the trim system on a PA28 I'm sure it should easily have the range and power to overcome these factors if it's properly rigged and functioning assuming the airplane is loaded to balance within limits.
 
FWIW, seems I recall reading about the crash of a King Air some years ago. He was climbing out of one of the airports in the Denver metro area thru' freezing rain planning to climb to the warmer air aloft. He never made it even with full de-ice.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Yea I understand I need training and experience. Thats the whole point of the thread.

what would I have done? Called atc and requested vectors. Turned on defroster, turned all my attention on my instruments.

Do exactly as told by atc. Just like mr. "Mayday mayday mayday" did.

that is what I would of done.
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Don't fly into rain at below freezing temperature (you have an OAT gauge I assume?), if you do blunder into rain at 27*F an immediate 180* turn would be in order.
ATC doesn't have the authority to order you to do anything, you are the pilot in command.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
2500 was the only other altitude that I would of been cleared for. Or 6500 but ceiling was 7000ft. And I was so close that climbing was silly given the amount of rain that was actually falling.
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You were not operating on a clearance. The fact that once you started descending they cut you loose, shows that you weren't a factor for any other traffic in the KSAT Class C. You could have done whatever you wanted at that point -- and even before, after a little negotiation with ATC. NEVER let ATC keep you at an altitude where you can reasonably expect to pick up ice.

As others have said, for VFR traffic the even/odd cruising altitude rule only applies above 3000 AGL. It looks like you had plenty of clearance above the towers in the area, and could have cruised anywhere in the 3000-3800 MSL range legally, and could have avoided the FZRA as long as it was below the freezing level.
 
Re: Cross Country & Freezing Rain

If you were 27d at 4500', then you would be well above freezing at 1500' or whatever will give you 1000' AGL (around 37d). If you are VFR and familiar with the area, you should have no problem with the towers. Point being, that you do not stay in known icing because you are "only 10 minutes from home".
 
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So what spoonfeeder is not clearly stating is that the "odd/even thousand plus 500" rules only apply above 3000 feet.

If you are under 3000 feet, then you need only be concerned about altitudes relative to populated areas, tallest obstacle. You could descend to any altitude below 3000.

This is turning out to be a really good thread. I am glad you had this experience.
I am getting a lot out of it.
 
I wonder if the engine thing is a mixture issue.

Only time I ever thought I was going to have an emergency was my first solo out of the pattern. I started playing with the mixture. In hindsight, I didn't really know what I was doing. I had seen my CFI pull it out a half inch here and there so I did that but didn't really understand what it was doing and how far he knew how to pull it. For whatever reason we didnt spend a lot of time on proper leaning.

I began to descend and engine started to sputter. I thought I had carb ice, pulled carb heat and it got better for a second then I pulled power to about half and it ran smooth but not enough to get me back to the field. I was having a total meltdown in my head (probably 20 hour student at that point)

so I picked my field, and started going through my landing checklist
step one- Mixture rich ZOOOOM

That was it.

Went back home and learned everything I could about proper leaning.

I am just speculating but certainly one possibility.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I wonder if the engine thing is a mixture issue.

Only time I ever thought I was going to have an emergency was my first solo out of the pattern. I started playing with the mixture. In hindsight, I didn't really know what I was doing. I had seen my CFI pull it out a half inch here and there so I did that but didn't really understand what it was doing and how far he knew how to pull it. For whatever reason we didnt spend a lot of time on proper leaning.

I began to descend and engine started to sputter. I thought I had carb ice, pulled carb heat and it got better for a second then I pulled power to about half and it ran smooth but not enough to get me back to the field. I was having a total meltdown in my head (probably 20 hour student at that point)

so I picked my field, and started going through my landing checklist
step one- Mixture rich ZOOOOM

That was it.

Went back home and learned everything I could about proper leaning.

I am just speculating but certainly one possibility.
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I think you're right.
 
Getting a little tired of the :nono: (finger shaking) by some of the members.

Stop regurgitating the same posts that others have said just to get your post count up.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
what would I have done? Called atc and requested vectors. Turned on defroster, turned all my attention on my instruments.
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One thing to learn is that the defroster is good at moisture condensation on the inside of the windshield. NOT the outside, having been in a real freezing rain storm many times in my car, the defroster will not help. The only thing that can help is a windshield wiper and those will ice up and become useless soon as well. They're not kidding about the "seconds vs. minutes" things too, you can go from clear windshield to no forward visibility in under a minute easy with misty to light freezing rain (the small drops usually make it worse as it doesn't have the mass to fall off the window on it's own after it initially sticks).

What Henning said about not having to do what ATC tells you isn't right. You are not required to contact ATC outside of class A, B, C, or D but if you do then you are required to follow their instructions. You can choose to cancel flight following and change frequencies and do whatever you want but if you're talking to ATC and they tell you to do something then you have to do it.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2013/Karas%20-%20(2013)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

Excerpt:
"Pilots flying in controlled airspace must comply with all ATC instructions, regardless of whether the pilot is flying VFR or IFR, in accordance with § 91.123(b). ATC instructions include headings, turns, altitude instructions and general directions...A pilot flying VFR in Class E airspace, which is controlled airspace, is not required to communicate with ATC; however, if a pilot is communicating with ATC and ATC issues an instruction, the pilot must comply with that instruction."

​
So, if he was last told (or even implied) to maintain 4,500 then he at least has to advise ATC that he's changing altitude. But, if I get the point you guys are trying to make then, yes, you can and should change altitude to below freezing if that is an option. Don't just fly at the last assigned altitude only because you might bother ATC with your request.
Jhernandez04 said:
Getting a little tired of the :nono: (finger shaking) by some of the members.

Stop regurgitating the same posts that others have said just to get your post count up.
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I agree, the tone has shifted from constructive criticism to aggressive accusation. While nobody likes to be wrong and I believe the OP has a little bit of a defensive attitude over his decisions (nothing wrong with it, just pointing it out) I agree that you guys are putting him on the defensive rather than simply trying to help him learn.
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
Getting a little tired of the :nono: (finger shaking) by some of the members.

Stop regurgitating the same posts that others have said just to get your post count up.
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You're doing okay - don't let those jumping on the pile bother you. Regurgitation is what some folks around here do best.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Getting a little tired of the :nono: (finger shaking) by some of the members.

Stop regurgitating the same posts that others have said just to get your post count up.
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I really doubt anyone is trying to get a post count up.

It doesn't seem as though you have grasped the gravity of your situation. People keep repeating the same things because you dodged a cannonball and seem to think it was a mosquito.

You also don't have good grasp of your airspace rules, and this needs correction ASAP. Even so, you let ATC be PIC. That's wrong on just about every level. It makes you a passenger, not a pilot. Learn the word "unable" and use it. Along with "pan-pan-pan," which clearly applied to your situation, at a minimum.

I (politely) once told a Class C controller to stuff it during a student solo. "Cross midfield at or above 2000" doesn't work when there is a cloud over the airport at 2000. "Unable due to clouds" got me a somewhat longer reroute at a lower altitude, no muss no fuss.
 
tehmightypirate said:
So, if he was last told (or even implied) to maintain 4,500 then he at least has to advise ATC that he's changing altitude. But, if I get the point you guys are trying to make then, yes, you can and should change altitude to below freezing if that is an option. Don't just fly at the last assigned altitude only because you might bother ATC with your request.
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**** ATC. Tell them what you are doing if you have time.

14 CFR 91.3(b) says
In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
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Let me emphasize, that includes 14 CFR 91.123(b), and ice -- ANY ice in a non-FIKI aircraft -- is an emergency.

Descend (or climb or turn, as appropriate) to get out of ice NOW. Tell ATC when you have the time. There is no request.
 
MAKG1 said:
**** ATC. Tell them what you are doing if you have time.

14 CFR 91.3(b) says
In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
​
Let me emphasize, that includes 14 CFR 91.123(b), and ice -- ANY ice in a non-FIKI aircraft -- is an emergency.

Descend (or climb or turn, as appropriate) to get out of ice NOW. Tell ATC when you have the time. There is no request.
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Right but when everyone is saying you don't have to do what ATC tells you that's 100% wrong. What they should say is you don't have to LET ATC tell you what to do, nor do you have to let them make decisions for you, but you DO have to get clearance from them if they previously instructed you to do something different and you should advise them otherwise. And the OP never declared an emergency so 14 CFR 91.123(b) still applied until he says the magic words.

Plus, the OP stated that he was not in ice until the very end of the flight during or right before his descent. So there was no default FIKI emergency until then. That said, I agree entirely that if he wasn't going to do a 180 in sub-freezing rainy/mist then he should have descended as much as practical to get to warmed air and all he had to do was advise ATC.
 
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tehmightypirate said:
About the only thing to really watch out with snow is the possibility to go from moderate to minimal VFR visibility to LIFR visibility in no time at all. This is one of those situations that isn't too bad though, you just have to be ready to make that "accidentally entered IFR, 180 degree turn" and get the heck back to where you just came from.
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One time on the Oregon/Washington border, I was in light snow about 15 miles from my destination, when the distance I could see the surface ahead of me dropped to what was obviously less than three miles. I turned around and went back to the last airport I had passed, and rented a car.
 
tehmightypirate said:
And the OP never declared an emergency so 14 CFR 91.123(b) still applied until he says the magic words.
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It is not required to declare an emergency to use 91.3(b). Declaring an emergency or urgency is a good idea if possible, but it is far from top priority. Aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order.

Suppose the radio shorts out and lights on fire. That's not an emergency and you have to stay at the altitude you were last instructed to? No. What about accidental IMC, where fiddling with the radio can result in disorientation?
 
MAKG1 said:
I really doubt anyone is trying to get a post count up.

It doesn't seem as though you have grasped the gravity of your situation. People keep repeating the same things because you dodged a cannonball and seem to think it was a mosquito.

You also don't have good grasp of your airspace rules, and this needs correction ASAP. Even so, you let ATC be PIC. That's wrong on just about every level. It makes you a passenger, not a pilot. Learn the word "unable" and use it. Along with "pan-pan-pan," which clearly applied to your situation, at a minimum.

I (politely) once told a Class C controller to stuff it during a student solo. "Cross midfield at or above 2000" doesn't work when there is a cloud over the airport at 2000. "Unable due to clouds" got me a somewhat longer reroute at a lower altitude, no muss no fuss.
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Jesse, you need to remember that many folks on the aviation forums will debate for years about if the cat leaving the room really has one eye or not. Then start quoting the regulation about that eye being clean or crusty. The the General Counsel's definition on what is "crusty".


You definitely have had a significant luck and learning experience so early in your flying career. And I know from various sources I talk to that you're working on the lessons you gained from this experience...

RE: Weather and Icing, you're hooking up with ScottD.

RE: Power management and trim, you're continuing to fly with your instructor and reaching out to fly with other local pilots to tap into their experience and wisdom

RE: Who's flying and commanding the airplane... you're remember it's you and you're in command.

RE: Altitude and clearance confusion. This is very much a "young pilot" mistake that you're learning about and us local pilots you fly with plus your instructor would be very willing to cover in detail in person.


As always, let's go fly, have some fun, share some stories, and help you keep the clear blue up and the muddy brown down.

.
 
I don't think anyone is suggesting it's OK to tell ATC to go pound sand, OTOH any and all ATC clearances and/or instructions are negotiable and if 91.3(b) applies to the situation you're authorized to do it first and negotiate afterwards.
It seems the OP is digging in his heels and getting a little defensive and that's a shame, if we're regurgitating the same old warnings it's because he seems not to appreciate how much trouble he was in. If our constructive criticisms sound harsh perhaps they're badly worded, OTOH there's no room for fragile egos in the cockpit.
 
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peerlesscowboy said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting it's OK to tell ATC to go pound sand, OTOH any and all ATC clearances and/or instructions are negotiable and if 91.3(b) applies to the situation you're authorized to do it first and negotiate afterwards.
It seems the OP is digging in his heels and getting a little defensive and that's a shame, if we're regurgitating the same old warnings it's because he seems not to appreciate how much trouble he was in. If our constructive criticisms sound harsh perhaps they're badly worded, OTOH there's no room for fragile egos in the cockpit.
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Actually your the one I'm referring to with the term regurgitation.

Your saying the same stuff everyone else has already said. Getting that post count up.

You haven't helped me at all. Your just making me wish I wouldn't of said anything.
 
I didn't even know until around the 120 hour mark that I could contest what ATC said.

I thought if I had FF, I had to do whatever they told me to do.
 
And do go fly with Aggie Mike if you get the opportunity. He is out of DTO.
Very detail oriented and Mike is definitely a teacher. You will learn a lot flying with him.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
And do go fly with Aggie Mike if you get the opportunity. He is out of DTO.
Very detail oriented and Mike is definitely a teacher. You will learn a lot flying with him.
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Just bring your own duck in case we lose the starboard wing.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I didn't even know until around the 120 hour mark that I could contest what ATC said.

I thought if I had FF, I had to do whatever they told me to do.
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Not an uncommon mistake..... and something the instructors don't always remember to comment on and teach.

New pilots forget that the controller is tucked inside a dark room with no windows and are mentally juggling a 3-D model of their airspace to keep us all safe. They only know what they see on the radar scope and computer monitors. Clouds, light precip, and atmospheric temperature layers are not seen by them. They don't see what the pilots see.

That's why the final authority really rests with the Pilot in Command.

Departing Denton once, I was immediately cleared into the Bravo to my desired cruise altitude of 4500. But it quickly became clear that would violate VFR because of a cloud band sitting at 3800.

A quick "Departure, 55WB. I will be stopping my climb at 3500 for five to ten miles to remain VFR and get behind a band of clouds above me." got the response, "55WB, Regional Departure. Understood. Remain VFR and advise when resuming your climb."

No way he would have known that band of clouds was there and between me and the desired cruise altitude. So by being in command, telling him what I saw, we both agreed to the solution and the flight continued on safely.
 
MAKG1 said:
Declaring an emergency or urgency is a good idea if possible, but it is far from top priority. Aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order.
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True, with one small nit: According to the Pilot/Controller Glossary, an urgency condition is an emergency.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
I don't think anyone is suggesting it's OK to tell ATC to go pound sand, OTOH any and all ATC clearances and/or instructions are negotiable and if 91.3(b) applies to the situation you're authorized to do it first and negotiate afterwards.
It seems the OP is digging in his heels and getting a little defensive and that's a shame, if we're regurgitating the same old warnings it's because he seems not to appreciate how much trouble he was in. If our constructive criticisms sound harsh perhaps they're badly worded, OTOH there's no room for fragile egos in the cockpit.
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The OP might be a millennial, so instead of constructive criticism, you might want to use praise instead and comment on what a great job he did.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I didn't even know until around the 120 hour mark that I could contest what ATC said.

I thought if I had FF, I had to do whatever they told me to do.
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Well, you do. But remember it's a two way street, if you tell them that you need to do something then they have to tell you why you can't. If you REALLY still need to do it then you can declare an emergency and do it anyway and ATC has to sort it out. Finally, you can cancel flight following and prior instructions may still apply but for the most part you can then do whatever you want as well.

Jhernandez04 said:
You can kiss my ass.
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Hah!
 
RichNY said:
The OP might be a millennial, so instead of constructive criticism, you might want to use praise instead and comment on what a great job he did.
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Tunes would be changed if you only knew Jesse in person and his other hobby :yes:
 
AggieMike88 said:
Not an uncommon mistake..... and something the instructors don't always remember to comment on and teach.

New pilots forget that the controller is tucked inside a dark room with no windows and are mentally juggling a 3-D model of their airspace to keep us all safe. They only know what they see on the radar scope and computer monitors. Clouds, light precip, and atmospheric temperature layers are not seen by them. They don't see what the pilots see.

That's why the final authority really rests with the Pilot in Command.

Departing Denton once, I was immediately cleared into the Bravo to my desired cruise altitude of 4500. But it quickly became clear that would violate VFR because of a cloud band sitting at 3800.

A quick "Departure, 55WB. I will be stopping my climb at 3500 for five to ten miles to remain VFR and get behind a band of clouds above me." got the response, "55WB, Regional Departure. Understood. Remain VFR and advise when resuming your climb."

No way he would have known that band of clouds was there and between me and the desired cruise altitude. So by being in command, telling him what I saw, we both agreed to the solution and the flight continued on safely.
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Some controllers are prone to giving terrain warnings for VFR aircraft on FF over the mountains (ya gotta be above the mountains for'em to "see" you on radar for the most part - WAM excepted). I usually answer the advisory with a comment on the view of whatever peak it is they are advising me not to bump into as long as the frequency is quiet: "clear and a million here, Pikes Peak is purty with new snow cover this morning" A couple of controllers have replied that the also appreciate the views when they aren't in their cave.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Not an uncommon mistake..... and something the instructors don't always remember to comment on and teach.

New pilots forget that the controller is tucked inside a dark room with no windows and are mentally juggling a 3-D model of their airspace to keep us all safe. They only know what they see on the radar scope and computer monitors. Clouds, light precip, and atmospheric temperature layers are not seen by them. They don't see what the pilots see.

That's why the final authority really rests with the Pilot in Command.

Departing Denton once, I was immediately cleared into the Bravo to my desired cruise altitude of 4500. But it quickly became clear that would violate VFR because of a cloud band sitting at 3800.

A quick "Departure, 55WB. I will be stopping my climb at 3500 for five to ten miles to remain VFR and get behind a band of clouds above me." got the response, "55WB, Regional Departure. Understood. Remain VFR and advise when resuming your climb."

No way he would have known that band of clouds was there and between me and the desired cruise altitude. So by being in command, telling him what I saw, we both agreed to the solution and the flight continued on safely.
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Agreed. Two days ago, I departed VFR at night and requested an IFR clearance while airborne. ATC gave me a heading and altitude instruction and said that I could expect my IFR clearance southeast of San Jose VOR. As I proceeded in that direction, I got a better look at where the clouds were, and had to tell the controller that I would not be able to maintain VFR cloud clearance at that altitude in that direction.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Actually your the one I'm referring to with the term regurgitation.

Your saying the same stuff everyone else has already said. Getting that post count up.

You haven't helped me at all. Your just making me wish I wouldn't of said anything.
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OK, I'm thru' trying to help you. If you don't want to listen you can learn it all yourself.
 
John is generally a pretty reasonable guy, and doesn't usually get into fights. If he rubbed you the wrong way this time, you might want to wait until you get to know him better before writing him off.
 
Palmpilot said:
Agreed. Two days ago, I departed VFR at night and requested an IFR clearance while airborne. ATC gave me a heading and altitude instruction and said that I could expect my IFR clearance southeast of San Jose VOR. As I proceeded in that direction, I got a better look at where the clouds were, and had to tell the controller that I would not be able to maintain VFR cloud clearance at that altitude in that direction.
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Am I correct in remembering that 1) the ATC scopes aren't the best at showing precipitation (a very low resolution representation) and 2) not all controllers will turn that layer on, and 3) their scopes only show precipitation and not clouds.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Am I correct in remembering that 1) the ATC scopes aren't the best at showing precipitation (a very low resolution representation) and 2) not all controllers will turn that layer on, and 3) their scopes only show precipitation and not clouds.
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Not to speak for ATC but my understanding matches yours.
 
MAKG1 said:
Except the answer may be different between TRACon and Center. Their equipment is not the same.
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Right on. Terminal radar is much better at displaying wx than center radar, and because their antennas turn more rapidly the display at an approach facility is updated more often.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Right on. Terminal radar is much better at displaying wx than center radar, and because their antennas turn more rapidly the display at an approach facility is updated more often.

Bob Gardner
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Do they both operate on the same band? I would think that center would run on 10cm to avoid weather block issues.
 
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