Cross Country & Freezing Rain

jspilot said:
My understanding is that freezing rain is way more likely to cause ice build up than flying into snow as snow is already non-liquid and can't really freeze to easily to the surface of a plane. Am I right in this understanding? Either way I don't think I'd want to fly into either if I could avoid it.
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Other than reduced visibility, snow generally isn't a problem once airborne. Mixed snow and rain is a problem just about any time.
 
Clark1961 said:
Other than reduced visibility, snow generally isn't a problem once airborne. Mixed snow and rain is a problem just about any time.
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About the only thing to really watch out with snow is the possibility to go from moderate to minimal VFR visibility to LIFR visibility in no time at all. This is one of those situations that isn't too bad though, you just have to be ready to make that "accidentally entered IFR, 180 degree turn" and get the heck back to where you just came from.

To the OP, did you remember to turn on your pitot heat?

Jhernandez04 said:
Im thankful to have experieneced it and be able to talk about it. I know I was in a potentially life threatening situation. The only thing I was lucky about, was the amount of rain the was falling, it was very light.
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Yeah, I suppose that is one part that I'm not clear on; how much rain was falling? Was it mist, light, moderate, heavy, downpour?
 
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tehmightypirate said:
About the only thing to really watch out with snow is the possibility to go from moderate to minimal VFR visibility to LIFR visibility in no time at all. This is one of those situations that isn't too bad though, you just have to be ready to make that "accidentally entered IFR, 180 degree turn" and get the heck back to where you just came from.

To the OP, did you remember to turn on your pitot heat?



Yeah, I suppose that is one part that I'm not clear on; how much rain was falling? Was it mist, light, moderate, heavy, downpour?
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I would say light brain. The drops were about the size ofa teardrop from your Eye or slightly smaller. it started out as a misT though
 
Hands down, the worst icing I had was holding in VMC conditions over the Sparta VOR in a Metroliner. I started picking up freezing rain and the ice went from zero to oh poop in a heart beat. I told the controller that I had to move anywhere but there or I was going to declare an emergency.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
..........................................
1. While crusing to my first checkpoint (KACT) my plane kept wanting to climb past my cruising altitude (pretty normal for a under gross 235) so I trimmed a little and tried to reduce power to 65%, the engine stumbled and I returned to full power, but trimmed even more to help with the backpressure on the yoke. I had to maintain a lot of forward pressure to keep the nose down.

............................................................

Back to the engine sputtering when I pull power, I made the decision that due to having no traffic between me and the runway that I would get close to the right base but above pattern altitude @2500 (I figured that would allow me to make the runway if the engine quit)

Turned for long final obviously high, pulled power and to my amazement it was running perfect... Maybe I need to get better at leaning it out? Topic of discussion for the ride with my CFI.
........................
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Fouled plugs? Carb ice? :confused: don't be offended but on the trim issue, are you sure you turned the crank the right way?
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Fouled plugs? Carb ice? :confused: don't be offended but on the trim issue, are you sure you turned the crank the right way?
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I only have 66 hours. But they are all in my plane. I can assure you I didn't fly 235nm with my trim setting incorrect.
 
RichNY said:
It's 27* and you're flying in rain
The trim system is acting in a way that baffles you
The engine isn't running properly
You decide you're close to your destination and keep going
You're lucky you're still here to talk about it
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There is your chain of events! Really good to post this and let everyone learn from it. If your trim is full forward/nose down and the plane continues to climb you have a problem. Did you have a mechanic check on that along with the engine roughness?

I can see how the familiar airport would push you to keep going. If the engine quit on you above the field you may have been in a better position.

To learn from this you should try to spot the chain of events better that got you into this position.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I only have 66 hours. But they are all in my plane. I can assure you I didn't fly 235nm with my trim setting incorrect.
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Well, if you had full nose-down trim and still needed to physically push on the yoke to keep from climbing something sure wasn't right.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Well, if you had full nose-down trim and still needed to physically push on the yoke to keep from climbing something sure wasn't right.
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Yea I believe I already addressed that I was at full power with only 2300lbs. In cold air. With a 6 cylinder 240hp engine.

She wanted to climb. And I didn't want to pull power to keep her from climbing.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Yea I believe I already addressed that I was at full power with only 2300lbs. In cold air. With a 6 cylinder 240hp engine.

She wanted to climb. And I didn't want to pull power to keep her from climbing.
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You STILL need to figure out why your engine doesn't run smoothly at all power settings. Either there's something wrong with it, or you mismanaged the engine.

Doesn't matter which, you need to fix it before taking any more trips.

If I missed you mentioning the root cause of that, my apologies.
 
TMetzinger said:
You STILL need to figure out why your engine doesn't run smoothly at all power settings. Either there's something wrong with it, or you mismanaged the engine.

Doesn't matter which, you need to fix it before taking any more trips.

If I missed you mentioning the root cause of that, my apologies.
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No worries, I alluded to me mismanaging the engine earlier. The engine runs fine, fresh out of annual and there are no issues with it. Aside from me being scared to pull power beyond the hiccups. I was just nervous. Bc I did pull power at the end and there was no issues.

Could it be something else? Sure, but most likely the problem was me.


There was nothing keeping me from descending to 3500 other then ATC.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Well, if you had full nose-down trim and still needed to physically push on the yoke to keep from climbing something sure wasn't right.
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Jhernandez04 said:
Yea I believe I already addressed that I was at full power with only 2300lbs. In cold air. With a 6 cylinder 240hp engine.

She wanted to climb. And I didn't want to pull power to keep her from climbing.
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You are missing the point, and trying to defend your position / argue with a board full of pilots who have many more hours in significantly more challenging aircraft than yours.

I appreciate your posting, and others will learn from it, but the fact remains that you couldn't pull power from full because your engine would stumble, coupled with your inability to trim to level flight does mean something sure wasn't right.

And by gosh, you were lucky on this one. I can't fathom flying into rain at 27 degrees in a non FIKI aircraft. It doesn't matter whether you were 2 minutes or 10 minutes out from your destination. Fly around wet precipitation near freezing temperatures, or turn around. Don't fly through it. None of this "I'll monitor the buildup on the wings, while I fight my trim, engine, and whatever else was not right."

1 more broken link in this chain and we might have been discussing you in an NTSB report.

I guarantee you that in a few years you will be looking back at this thread and shaking your head, just like we are now.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
No worries, I alluded to me mismanaging the engine earlier. The engine runs fine, fresh out of annual and there are no issues with it. Aside from me being scared to pull power beyond the hiccups. I was just nervous. Bc I did pull power at the end and there was no issues.

Could it be something else? Sure, but most likely the problem was me.


There was nothing keeping me from descending to 3500 other then ATC.
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Did you tell ATC, "picking up ice, looking for lower"? Wait, were you IFR or VFR? If VFR, how was ATC a restriction?
 
Henning said:
Did you tell ATC, "picking up ice, looking for lower"? Wait, were you IFR or VFR? If VFR, how was ATC a restriction?
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Cause they told me to remain at 4500.

Im VFR. And I didn't recognize I was picking up ice at the time. I thought it was just rain.
 
Keep in mind, the beating you're taking here is rendered with good intent. Pretend you had a really crappy flight with an instructor and consider this the debrief.

So take it to heart, but don't take it too hard.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Cause they told me to remain at 4500.

Im VFR. And I didn't recognize I was picking up ice at the time. I thought it was just rain.
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You don't have to do what they tell you, you have PIC over ride for stuff like this. You should have realized that in sub freezing temperatures, especially when the windshield was getting slushy, that you were picking up ice. Good learning experience for you. 3500 might not have gotten you warm enough, 2500 would most likely have. VFR I would have headed for the deck.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
How was this phrased? Were you being vectored for traffic? Something's not right here, either, VFR.
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Well I was cruising along making my way towards 4500 but felt okay at 4,000 and ATC asked me my intended altitude and I said I'd like to stay at 4200 if acceptable. He quickly said negative that vfr traffic must be 4500 so I said okay.

I got into the rain, they gave the pirep and I actually told them I was going to begin my decent due to being close to the airport and get below the the 3000ft pirep.

You can see on flight vector what and when I'm referring to.
 
If you ask ATC for a lower altitude due to weather/icing, they will most likely always give it to you. If they couldn't give you the lower altitude, I would have declared an emergency
 
Here's a breakdown of events after I was in the rain.
 

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Jhernandez04 said:
Well I was cruising along making my way towards 4500 but felt okay at 4,000 and ATC asked me my intended altitude and I said I'd like to stay at 4200 if acceptable. He quickly said negative that vfr traffic must be 4500 so I said okay.

I got into the rain, they gave the pirep and I actually told them I was going to begin my decent due to being close to the airport and get below the the 3000ft pirep.

You can see on flight vector what and when I'm referring to.
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You have to know how you and ATC need to interact.

4500 Good. 4200 bad. 4000 bad.

Based on the ground elevation where you were flying, what other altitudes are good?
 
jordane93 said:
If you ask ATC for a lower altitude due to weather/icing, they will most likely always give it to you. If they couldn't give you the lower altitude, I would have declared an emergency
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I'm aware of that. Once I was in the rain i casually told them I was going to start my decent and then they told me to squawk 1200..... they cut me loose so I really wasn't concerned with them at that point. It wasn't an emergency at all. It could of been, but the rain was not falling hard. And it was not accumulated in any surface but the windshield. Which was of concern but my thought process was more focused on the actual lifting surfaces.

The ice that was on my wings when I landed was able to be pressed away with a push of my finger, indicating that YES it was there but the thickness measured less than a few pieces of paper.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I'm aware of that. Once I was in the rain i casually told them I was going to start my decent and then they told me to squawk 1200..... they cut me loose so I really wasn't concerned with them at that point. It wasn't an emergency at all. It could of been, but the rain was not falling hard. And it was not accumulated in any surface but the windshield. Which was of concern but my thought process was more focused on the actual lifting surfaces.

The ice that was on my wings when I landed was able to be pressed away with a push of my finger, indicating that YES it was there but the thickness measured less than a few pieces of paper.
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Did you notice how much was on your tail? Which is more critical?
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
You have to know how you and ATC need to interact.

4500 Good. 4200 bad. 4000 bad.

Based on the ground elevation where you were flying, what other altitudes are good?
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2500 was the only other altitude that I would of been cleared for. Or 6500 but ceiling was 7000ft. And I was so close that climbing was silly given the amount of rain that was actually falling.

I get the impression you guys think I was in a rain storm, when rather it was like a heavy mist. The rain on the windshield didn't start sticking till 2-3 minutes in, and even then it wasn't clearly ice.
 
Henning said:
Did you notice how much was on your tail? Which is more critical?
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There was no discernable difference in the amount. If any surface had more it was my spinner.

I would say the tail due to controlling elevation. But that's not something I can view from the cockpit.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Wrong. You had more choices available.
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Don't mistake me, I would of done what I feel I needed to do to get out of an emergency.

Like I said before, had there been a noticeable accumulation of ice I would of requested immediate vectors for nearest airport.

Even then I had eyes on 2 private strip close to my position. They are narrow strip but they were a few outs.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Don't mistake me, I would of done what I feel I needed to do to get out of an emergency.

Like I said before, had there been a noticeable accumulation of ice I would of requested immediate vectors for nearest airport.

Even then I had eyes on 2 private strip close to my position. They are narrow strip but they were a few outs.
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No emergency needed. What other fully legitimate altitudes were available to you?
 
Jhernandez04 said:
2500 was the only other altitude that I would of been cleared for. Or 6500 but ceiling was 7000ft. And I was so close that climbing was silly given the amount of rain that was actually falling.

I get the impression you guys think I was in a rain storm, when rather it was like a heavy mist. The rain on the windshield didn't start sticking till 2-3 minutes in, and even then it wasn't clearly ice.
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The windshield and fuel tanks will be the last place it sticks.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Which was what? Descend like I did or climb into the clouds?

At the time when I was told 4500 weather wasn't even a concern. The OAT was 34 or 35. And the sun was in my eyes.
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Come on, guy. We're spoon feeding you here.

He didn't order you to stay at 4500'. He did let you know that 4000', nor 4200' were not OK.

What does this sentence mean to a VFR pilot:

" each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface"
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Come on, guy. We're spoon feeding you here.

He didn't order you to stay at 4500'. He did let you know that 4000', nor 4200' were not OK.

What does this sentence mean to a VFR pilot:

" each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface"
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Okay I'll bite, besides missing the whole freezing rain thing.... I don't know what your saying or asking.

My outs were a 180, descend or land. As far as what specific altitude I get that I was good below 3000. But why the heck would I climb when I was trying to land?...

Spoon feed me more. It's time to learn.
 
He had 2043' and 2049' towers to watch out for. Once under 3500' MSL, he could have chosen any altitude he wanted while maintaining proper clearances.

When weather is mvfr or when I know I am going to be making many altitude and heading changes, I don't get FF or cancel.
 
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Jhernandez04 said:
Okay I'll bite, besides missing the whole freezing rain thing.... I don't know what your saying or asking.

My outs were a 180, descend or land. As far as what specific altitude I get that I was good below 3000. But why the heck would I climb when I was trying to land?...

Spoon feed me more. It's time to learn.
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You should have descended into above freezing temps when the rain started. While it was just light rain at that point, what was your method of determining that the rain would not get heavier before you got to the field?
 
Henning said:
You should have descended into above freezing temps when the rain started. While it was just light rain at that point, what was your method of determining that the rain would not get heavier before you got to the field?
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I had no way to determine that other then watching my surfaces very closely.

One of my mistakes was thinking it was just rain. The whole freezing rain term kinda confused me, I was expecting hale or something. Not actual liquid rain. And the fact it was rolling off my windshield just confirmed my false belief that it was just rain. It wasn't until a minute after the pirep that I thought to myself.... ****, this must be the freezing rain... fu.c*.

then I said "San antonio approach I'm going to start my decent"
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Okay I'll bite, besides missing the whole freezing rain thing.... I don't know what your saying or asking.

My outs were a 180, descend or land. As far as what specific altitude I get that I was good below 3000. But why the heck would I climb when I was trying to land?...

Spoon feed me more. It's time to learn.
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27 Degrees and rain is bad. Looking out the window for ice doesn't count.

Lower is warmer.

It's not "good below 3000'", it's good below 3000' agl.

You stated "2500 was the only other altitude that I would of been cleared for." That is wrong. You departed an airport at 628' and arrived at an airport that was 430'. Any altitude below 3628' on departure and 3430' on arrival was good.

Not sure why you tried to level off at 4000'. That's an IFR altitude.

You stated "they told me to remain at 4500." You misunderstood them. ATC can't make you remain at 4500'. He only suggested one of many appropriate options.


You should never have flown into wet precipitation at that temp, certainly not in that plane with your hours.

You could have flown lower, around, or reversed course to avoid the rain or reach warmer temperatures. It doesn't matter that you were "almost there."

It might be time to spend a few bucks and review this flight on the ground with a CFI. Sounds like you need to be more comfortable with your options, particularly with what ATC can and cannot order you to do, and how to deal with avoiding icing conditions in the first place.

You got lucky. That could easily have poofed your windscreen opaque in seconds, not minutes, without even considering loss of lift ... then what would your options have been, as a low time VFR pilot?
 
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