Cross Country & Freezing Rain

Jhernandez04 said:
Well I should add that its a Fixed Pitch Prop. So its pretty easy to set power %'s based off of engine RPM.
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:confused: So your aircraft isn't a -235?

I was full power & full rich @4,500ft. almost neutral trim.

Seeing as though it wanted to climb through my ATC asigned altitude, I put turned the trim to 50% down. Still required forward pressure of the yoke. So I tried to pull power (throttle, NOT mixture) it hiccuped a little and I went full power to smooth it out. I then put the trim to about 90-95% down, leaving a little room to wiggle so I didnt stress any parts (my thinking anyways)

So I started leaning it out (lean rough to smooth they say) but as soon as I took mixuture out it started hiccuping again. Full mixture, problem solved.

I monitered RPM for a DIP or slow decrease. Never happened, but I added carb heat for a few minutes, 50-75rpm decrease, never increased or moved. Took carb heat out, went back to full RPM.

Played that cat and mouse game a few more times. My guess is that if I would of just tried to pull more power then it would of cleaned up, I just didnt want to pull it incase it stopped spinning. It was running like a top with full throttle, why mess with it? All I had to do was keep the nose down.

That was my line of thinking anyways. I've never flown it in cold weather like this though, so not sure what I experienced.
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Mmmmmm..... let's go flying sometime and perhaps we both learn something :yes: I betcha if I could see what you're describing in action I would be better equipped to provide the right comments.
 
AggieMike88 said:
:confused: So your aircraft isn't a -235?



Mmmmmm..... let's go flying sometime and perhaps we both learn something :yes: I betcha if I could see what you're describing in action I would be better equipped to provide the right comments.
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1963-64 Cherokee 235's had the option for both fixed and constant speed prop. Mine is fixed.
 
Clark1961 said:
At 20 below the clouds are probably glaciated. Any pireps of ice?
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Nope didn't hear any. But the was an AIRMET for moderate icing in VA and some parts of Maryland. I had to request 3000 for about 20 minutes to dodge some scattered-broken layers that looked like they were at 4000.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
1963-64 Cherokee 235's had the option for both fixed and constant speed prop. Mine is fixed.
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Gotcha... lemme know when you're back in town and we'll go poke some holes in the sky.
 
Briefly back to the ice, where was the nearest airport and in what direction when you got the freezing ice call? If it was 30 minutes through the rain then I agree that it made sense to land with the 10 minute airport ahead.
 
tehmightypirate said:
Briefly back to the ice, where was the nearest airport and in what direction when you got the freezing ice call? If it was 30 minutes through the rain then I agree that it made sense to land with the 10 minute airport ahead.
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Was roughly 8 minutes either direction. Which is why due to the visual keys and ground speed I was having, I felt KPEZ was the best option. Might I add I was unfamiliar with the surrounding area.

I work around KPEZ so prior to landing there I familiarized myself with the layout of the town and knew once I spotted the blue towers I could instantly find the airport.

Landing at another airport would of worked, but I would of had to look for it.
 
WOW - Ice can jump on you very quickly. Glad you made it down safe!
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Was roughly 8 minutes either direction. Which is why due to the visual keys and ground speed I was having, I felt KPEZ was the best option. Might I add I was unfamiliar with the surrounding area.

I work around KPEZ so prior to landing there I familiarized myself with the layout of the town and knew once I spotted the blue towers I could instantly find the airport.

Landing at another airport would of worked, but I would of had to look for it.
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Yeah, sounds like you made the best call but I would try to stay out of visible moisture in sub-freezing temperatures in the future.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
We actually looked it over very thoroughly and nothing indicated rain or freezing rain. I even called my coworker who was working 25 minutes away from pleasanton and there was no indication of rain. Just cloud cover.

There were no pireps for the route and the freezing level was 10,000ft.
Not sure how much more thorough you require.

Of course hindsite is 20/20 right?
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Sometimes the rain evaporates before hitting the ground(virga). This causes evaporational cooling of the atmosphere. So your co-worker may not feel a thing 4000' below.

You departed Ft Worth with OAT 35-36F and then indicated 27F at 4500', which corresponded to nearby morning and evening KDRT soundings. Soundings did also indicate "another" freezing level at 700 mb or 10,000'. The soundings showed that the temperature warmed up above freezing between 7-10K(one of your possible outs). Be careful heading towards bad weather at 160 knots. I have believed the forecast for better weather that never materialized and ended up diverting for 4 hours one trip and 4 days on another. It is part of the fun and my family is glad to be here for another day of flying. Don't hesitate to tell ATC or your passengers that you are making a 180. The weather in San Antonio was beautiful the following day, as it usually is the day after an incident.

I start looking at the AFD(as well as many other sites) 2-3 days before a trip for my departure, enroute and destination. Here was one of yours...

AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE AUSTIN/SAN ANTONIO TX
528 AM CST TUE JAN 28 2014

.AVIATION...
CIGS WILL BE VFR TODAY. AN AREA OF LIGHT PRECIPITATION IS MOVING
ACROSS THE NORTHERN PART OF OUR FORECAST AREA THIS MORNING. THIS
MIGHT BRING SOME FREEZING RAIN OR SLEET TO AUS OVER THE NEXT FEW
HOURS. NOT EXPECTING PRECIPITATION AT OTHER TERMINALS...BUT THERE
IS A SLIGHT CHANCE IN THE SAN ANTONIO AREA. WINDS WILL BE FROM THE
NORTH AT 10 TO 15 KTS DURING THE DAY TODAY.

Later at the 258 PM AFD, they mention an "upper level trough"...remember that usually means unstable or "bad" weather.

Precipitation was not moving much throughout the day. Sometimes their timing is off by a few hours as I have found out too. Keep studying and learning. It is fun comparing the forecast wx/winds to actual when I get up there. They are usually fairly accurate on those beautiful sunny days.
 
Nice Write up.
Right or wrong, I would have probably done the same thing.

12 minutes and not seeing any accumulation...
I wish I could say I totally would have done a 180 but I would have started wondering about how far in I am once I realized it was freezing, and what my options are and probably would have gone for it.

The good thing is after reading your write-up and hearing the responses, if I find myself in that situation, I will opt for the 180.

We are all learning today ;)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Nice Write up.
Right or wrong, I would have probably done the same thing.

12 minutes and not seeing any accumulation...
I wish I could say I totally would have done a 180 but I would have started wondering

The good thing is after reading your write-up and hearing the responses, if I find myself in that situation, I will opt for the 180.

We are all learning today ;)
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Lol I have tough skin, I can handle the critique. The ice was a non factor because it didnt want to make me angry. Even ice doesnt like the thought of an angry hulk. :lol:

Any time your learning, is time well spent.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Well I should add that its a Fixed Pitch Prop. So its pretty easy to set power %'s based off of engine RPM.

I was full power & full rich @4,500ft. almost neutral trim.

Seeing as though it wanted to climb through my ATC asigned altitude, I put turned thet trim to 50% down. Still required forward pressure of the yoke. So I tried to pull power (throttle, NOT mixture) it hiccuped a little and I went full power to smooth it out. I then put the trim to about 90-95% down, leaving a little room to wiggle so I didnt stress any parts (my thinking anyways)

So I started leaning it out (lean rough to smooth they say) but as soon as I took mixuture out it started hiccuping again. Full mixture, problem solved.

I monitered RPM for a DIP or slow decrease. Never happened, but I added carb heat for a few minutes, 50-75rpm decrease, never increased or moved. Took carb heat out, went back to full RPM.

Played that cat and mouse game a few more times. My guess is that if I would of just tried to pull more power then it would of cleaned up, I just didnt want to pull it incase it stopped spinning. It was running like a top with full throttle, why mess with it? All I had to do was keep the nose down.

That was my line of thinking anyways. I've never flown it in cold weather like this though, so not sure what I experienced.
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Your comment about setting the trim confuses me. There is no "50%" on a trim wheel; you adjust trim until all stick pressure is removed and you can fly hands-off. Read up on "trim speed."

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Your comment about setting the trim confuses me. There is no "50%" on a trim wheel; you adjust trim until all stick pressure is removed and you can fly hands-off. Read up on "trim speed."

Bob Gardner
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Many aircraft have a trim scale. It doesn't mean much.

Just trying to parse.
 
It's 27* and you're flying in rain
The trim system is acting in a way that baffles you
The engine isn't running properly
You decide you're close to your destination and keep going
You're lucky you're still here to talk about it
 
bobmrg said:
Your comment about setting the trim confuses me. There is no "50%" on a trim wheel; you adjust trim until all stick pressure is removed and you can fly hands-off. Read up on "trim speed."
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Any particular reason you feel the need to be negatively dogmatic in your pedagogy with a relatively inexperience pilot?

I'll argue that there is a neutral trim position marked on many aircraft which could easily be called 50% by someone used to thinking in terms of full range of travel/motion.
 
RichNY said:
It's 27* and you're flying in rain
The trim system is acting in a way that baffles you
The engine isn't running properly
You decide you're close to your destination and keep going
You're lucky you're still here to talk about it
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It wasnt 27* the whole route,
obviously you didnt read the whole thread.

The engine was running perfect at full power,
obviously you didnt read the whole thread.

It even worked perfectly when I HAD to pull power,
but you didnt read the whole thread.

It didnt baffle me, it was expected due to the weight/power of the plane, obviously you didnt read the whole thread.

I decided to keep going based off of factors I interprited as acceptable. But i'll agree I was a little lucky as well.


The whole engine issue is likely to be my inability to effectively use the mixuture knob. Easily corrected, the reason I believe this is because once I pulled power it acted flawlessly and I even had to add power power on my decent. It taxied flawless as well.
 
RichNY said:
It's 27* and you're flying in rain
The trim system is acting in a way that baffles you
The engine isn't running properly
You decide you're close to your destination and keep going
You're lucky you're still here to talk about it
Click to expand...


At 60-ish hours a lot of us might have done the same having never been in those conditions before. Hard to say.

I would definitely hit my nrst button every few min
 
bobmrg said:
Your comment about setting the trim confuses me. There is no "50%" on a trim wheel; you adjust trim until all stick pressure is removed and you can fly hands-off. Read up on "trim speed."

Bob Gardner
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Thanks Bob, to clear up on your confusion my particular plane has a trim handle/wheel on the ceiling of the plane. Its marked in the middle as neutral and there are markings on either said that say UP or DOWN in terms of trim.

When I trim up and the wheel can spin no futher, I refer to that as 100% upwards trim. When I put the trim to downwards trim leaving roughly half of the available trim if I need it, I would then call that 50% downward trim.


Im well aware what trim does and how its supposed to help me fly, perhaps you missed the part about my 235hp engine at full throttle and the entire weight of the plane was 2300lbs. (2900lb gross)
 
I had a 64' 235 with a fixed pitch prop that had the same trim problem. Anytime you were in dense air (low altitude and cold) you would run out of down trim unless you pulled the power back to 2200-2300. I don't recall the power settings at those RPM's. My A&P spent a lot of time trying to rig it properly, but we never got it 100% fixed.
 
Scott Dennstaedt of www.AvWxWorkshops.com saw this thread and sent the following message to me with permission to repost here:

ScottD said:
Mike,

I was doing some searching on PoA for an older post of mine and came across a fairly recent thread about a guy who ran into FZRA while VFR in Texas. He said the briefer didn't mention anything about ice. Not unusual in this situation, but puzzling because there was a G-AIRMET for icing in that region (valid at 00Z). Icing was anticipated from the freezing level to 24,000 feet. The freezing level varied from the surface through 10,000 feet. See attached. Also, there were multiple freezing levels as well in this area. So, precip + multiple freezing levels = a freezing rain encounter. Pretty simple.

Also, I've attached the PIREPs which showed a couple of icing reports around that area. Most definitely a freezing rain signature on the Skew-T attached. This guy needs some weather training especially if he's relying on FSS to keep him safe. Of course, he'll dismiss this as "unforecast ice." It was forecast pretty well in my opinion.

Even the area forecast discussions mentioned the potential for FZRA and PL. And the METARs were providing some solid clues

Here are the METARs for KSAT...notice the report of FZRA and PL. There were plenty of easy clues...but you just have to look.

---------------------------------

KSAT 282151Z 01011KT 10SM -PL BKN070 OVC100 01/M11 A3037 RMK AO2 SLP280 P0000 T00061106

KSAT 282147Z 36012KT 10SM -PL SCT050 OVC090 01/M11 A3037 RMK AO2 P0000

KSAT 282051Z COR 36010KT 10SM -RA BKN050 OVC110 02/M12 A3036 RMK AO2 RAB50 SLP277 P0000 60000 T00171122 55011

KSAT 281951Z 01008G18KT 10SM BKN090 OVC140 02/M12 A3036 RMK AO2 SLP276 T00221122

KSAT 281851Z 36012G19KT 10SM BKN110 01/M12 A3036 RMK AO2 SLP278 T00111122

KSAT 281751Z 36013KT 10SM OVC140 00/M12 A3039 RMK AO2 SLP288 60000 T00001122 10006 21011 50019

KSAT 281651Z 02012G21KT 10SM FEW065 SCT095 BKN110 00/M09 A3040 RMK AO2 FZDZB28E29FZRAB29E51 SLP289 P0000 T00001094

KSAT 281629Z 02012KT 10SM -FZRA FEW065 OVC100 00/M08 A3039 RMK AO2 FZDZB28E29FZRAB29 P0000
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And Scott provided the images showing the AIRMETS, PIREPS, and Freezing Levels.

Jesse, he also invited you to contact him at scott@avwxworkshops.com and get set up for some weather education. I highly suggest you follow on with that because Scott does an excellent job teaching pilots where to find critical weather info and how to interpret what you're looking at.
 

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I wasn't aware you had around 60 hours. Your understanding of the weather and control of the plane make sense now. Sorry.
 
You will find most of us on here proud of you for providing us with the details of your experience. I would bet all of us have a few stories to tell:yes:, but we will only read about 1% of them on here.
 
JoshJ said:
I had a 64' 235 with a fixed pitch prop that had the same trim problem. Anytime you were in dense air (low altitude and cold) you would run out of down trim unless you pulled the power back to 2200-2300. I don't recall the power settings at those RPM's. My A&P spent a lot of time trying to rig it properly, but we never got it 100% fixed.
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that makes sense to me. Its really just a cherokee 140 with a huge engine.
 
RV10flyer said:
You will find most of us on here proud of you for providing us with the details of your experience. I would bet all of us have a few stories to tell:yes:, but we will only read about 1% of them on here.
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I've actually gotten a few private messages thanking me for sharing. I dont mind sharing a bad experience.


Im thankful to have experieneced it and be able to talk about it. I know I was in a potentially life threatening situation. The only thing I was lucky about, was the amount of rain the was falling, it was very light.

I was completely focused though and was prepared to divert if the situation called for it. Aside from what some of the backseat pilots have said, the situation (given all facts) did not call for the extreme diversion. If any one of the factors had changed (Ground speed, Accumulation, amount of precip, etc.) then I would of done something differently.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Scott Dennstaedt of www.AvWxWorkshops.com saw this thread and sent the following message to me with permission to repost here:



And Scott provided the images showing the AIRMETS, PIREPS, and Freezing Levels.

Jesse, he also invited you to contact him at scott@avwxworkshops.com and get set up for some weather education. I highly suggest you follow on with that because Scott does an excellent job teaching pilots where to find critical weather info and how to interpret what you're looking at.
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I would benefit from this too.
Weather was my weak point during my training.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I would benefit from this too.
Weather was my weak point during my training.
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Then look at his live workshop schedule: http://avwxworkshops.com/live-workshops.php

There is one coming up in Norman, OK in May. That would be an easy trip for you and Jesse, including driving there should the weather go IMC on ya. And Scott does offer a discount when 2 folks sign up.
 
Something all pilots should do with Scott: Purchase a block of Scott's time (very affordable for the quality of content you get), and participate a one-on-one coaching session for a flight that you might be considering. While this will not be a weather brief and you need to make the go or no go call, in 90-120 minutes, you will become very well equipped in how to use the various weather products to make that decision.

The session is done via GoToMeeting where you see Scott's computer screen and his "play-by-play" of what product to look at for what information, what order, and how it all ties together to provide the full weather picture for the flight.

Again, I highly recommend doing this to pilots of all experience levels.
 
I fly in FL and have no experience with icing at all. That said, I understand that freezing rain is one of the most dangerous situations to get into and that ice accretion can be quite rapid. I think you erred in continuing into freezing rain. In effect, you flew into known icing conditions. I think you made a mistake that could have been your last. I am happy that it was not.
 
I have 3.5x as much time, and I benefitted from the description.

I have absolutely no experience with structural ice. And I don't care to in a non-FIKI airplane (not sure about FIKI). I've been above the freezing level many times, but always in CAVU conditions.

A post like this allows us to learn from the mistakes of others. While that may not be so great for "others," it sure can be for the rest of us.

It's nice on several levels to be able to hear this from the original source, rather than the dramatized ASI analyses.

I've never flown a -235, but I've also never been in an airplane where there wasn't enough trim to keep the aircraft from climbing (not even a very light 182 flown solo). I'm skeptical that this is "normal." PA28s have stabilators, and the trim tends to be very effective because of that.
 
Really doesn't seem like it was that bad. Jesse just texted me a photo of his plane right after landing. ;)

_47062990_snowy_plane_766.jpg
 
Seems the bigger concern is he flys with the cabin cover still on.
 
azure said:
(Personally, my BS meter goes through the roof whenever a LockMart briefer tells me I'm "good to go". I've stopped using them for weather briefings because my first -- and to date only -- VFR into IMC encounter happened after a briefer told me something like that and I decided to trust his judgment, when my own judgment was less optimistic.)
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When using a briefer, I usually filter out the opinions, and primarily listen for the facts that I need to make an informed decision.
 
I've never had a LockMart briefer tell me I'm good to go. I've gotten the "VFR not recommended" thing when the local mountain obscuration was obviously over-flyable, though.
 
Jhernandez04 said:
I was completely focused though and was prepared to divert if the situation called for it. Aside from what some of the backseat pilots have said, the situation (given all facts) did not call for the extreme diversion. If any one of the factors had changed (Ground speed, Accumulation, amount of precip, etc.) then I would of done something differently.
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That's the thing, I think the situation did call for a diversion as soon as you entered precip. in freezing temperatures. I would have weighed my options, maybe going to your destination was still the fastest way out of it, depending on what other options you had.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I would benefit from this too.
Weather was my weak point during my training.
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Hell... I've got 18 years of flying, a bunch of certificates, and the equivalent in coursework for a B.S. in meteorology.

I still hate it. I can correctly recite the theory, I can work through problems. I don't KNOW it the way I KNOW networking or music or driving.
 
kevmor99 said:
That's the thing, I think the situation did call for a diversion as soon as you entered precip. in freezing temperatures. I would have weighed my options, maybe going to your destination was still the fastest way out of it, depending on what other options you had.
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The appropriate phrase for the OP's action is "continuation bias," a mental glitch that convinces pilots that if they are nearing their destination, that takes precedence over any evidence to the contrary.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
The appropriate phrase for the OP's action is "continuation bias," a mental glitch that convinces pilots that if they are nearing their destination, that takes precedence over any evidence to the contrary.

Bob Gardner
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Makes sense, won't happen again.
 
I just want to thank the OP for posting this as it has taught me a lot. Even though you are kind of getting crushed for the decision you made, your experience benefits us all.

Freezing rain is my number one fear when winter flying! It is always a concern to turn into ice and, the distuption of the air around an airfoil is something that non de-ice equipped planes can't do much to reverse.

My understanding is that freezing rain is way more likely to cause ice build up than flying into snow as snow is already non-liquid and can't really freeze to easily to the surface of a plane. Am I right in this understanding? Either way I don't think I'd want to fly into either if I could avoid it.
 
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