Can a HOA impose and collect fines for speeding (NC state)

[Chip Sylverne]

IPO

Private roads are HOA common land and the HOA definitely has authority to regulate common lands, including a fine.

if you and your neighbors don’t like the cameras, there are many actions you can take. Run for the board yourselves. Petition the board. Show up at meetings and constantly ask for changes. Take them to court over procedural issue like company selection, proving when the signs were installed, visibility, notification periods, hazards of machine placement, etc. Sue the HOA board members personally for breach of office. You might not win any of them, but the annoyance of having to defend themselves against so many people constantly may convince them to change. Do things which are annoying but not outside the rules. Sell your house under market value and destroy their comps. How strongly do you feel about it?

I'm not so certain of that. There's the concept of Quasi-public.

" Quasi-public property means any private street, highway, lane, alley or other roadway which is open to the public or to which the public is invited, and shall in this context include any and all parking yards, parking lots, causeways, alleys or malls generally open to the public."

If it is determined to be quasi-public, regulating speed and installing such equipment to regulate speed and may fall under the jurisdiction of the state, county or city highway department, not necessarily the HOA. There was a case recently reported in the WAPO where a concerned neighborhood installed a sign and couple of boxes and flashing lights to look like a speed camera, and the real authorities forced them to remove it.

In our little town, people routinely sped down Main Street, but the town council refused to install cameras knowing there would be a backlash. Instead, they put a radar that gave "your speed" mounted below the speed limit sign. Seems to have worked pretty well.

 

[Rockymountain]

The best way to appreciate an HOA is to move to a place without an HOA and have un neighborly, cluttered, messy, or inconsiderate neighbors. Just moved to an area without an HOA and missing those HOA fees.

 

[Country Flier]

The best way to appreciate an HOA is to move to a place without an HOA and have un neighborly, cluttered, messy, or inconsiderate neighbors. Just moved to an area without an HOA and missing those HOA fees.

I couldn’t care less what my neighbors are doing…but I intentionally moved to the country where not only are there no HOAs, my property is big enough that there is not a single house within sight of my house.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

In our little town, people routinely sped down Main Street, but the town council refused to install cameras knowing there would be a backlash. Instead, they put a radar that gave "your speed" mounted below the speed limit sign. Seems to have worked pretty well.

Those things never record the top score... What's the point if I don't know if I have the high-score or not?

 

[Getonit]

Sounds like they have either a power hungry HOA with a bunch of old people with nothing to do OR they have a legitimate speeding issue. Maybe a solution that would be more effective is to install the cameras and then just shame these people, for the children and what not?

For the record not a fan of HOA, currently have one and in first stages of getting some approvals by them, nonsensical design issues....in my opinion.

 

[Clip4]

The telling part of this sentence is that you think the guy that “owes” the small amount is the bad guy, not the one that’s taking his property over that small amount.

Not bad, misinformed or stupid.

 

[donjohnston]

I couldn’t care less what my neighbors are doing…but I intentionally moved to the country where not only are there no HOAs, my property is big enough that there is not a single house within sight of my house.

Good for you. Not everyone lives on acres of land where they can't see their neighbors. And just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it can't affect you. One of your neighbors decides to start chicken or pig farming, you'll rethink that "if I can't see it, it doesn't bother me" philosophy.

 

[Country Flier]

Good for you. Not everyone lives on acres of land where they can't see their neighbors. And just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it can't affect you. One of your neighbors decides to start chicken or pig farming, you'll rethink that "if I can't see it, it doesn't bother me" philosophy.

You’re funny. It’s the country, you should expect such things. My neighbor (a vacant field) just started raising freezer beef. Good for them.
Quite frankly, people like you are the problem.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Show me someone who hates their HOA and I'll show you someone that didn't read the covenants and restrictions when they bought the place. My last house had one, and the amount of participation in the HOA meetings was phenomenal. There were literally no issues that weren't quickly resolved.
And people would directly confront idiots that drove too fast in the neighborhood.

 

[donjohnston]

You’re funny. It’s the country, you should expect such things. My neighbor (a vacant field) just started raising freezer beef. Good for them.
Quite frankly, people like you are the problem.

Found the guy who doesn't know the difference between raising beef cattle and pigs or chickens.

And how am I "the problem"? Did I in some way infringe on your rights? Did I suggest that you not be allowed to do something? Did I in any way suggest that what you're doing is wrong?

 

[Country Flier]

Found the guy who doesn't know the difference between raising beef cattle and pigs or chickens.

And how am I "the problem"? Did I in some way infringe on your rights? Did I suggest that you not be allowed to do something? Did I in any way suggest that what you're doing is wrong?

I grew up ON a pig farm called Z Farms. I currently own 20 dozen chickens…a small operation but big enough to keep my wife busy as a side business…but you (like the posters above) keep making those false assumptions, you’re good (or is it bad?) at it!
And people like you demand that no one do anything on their own property because it might bother you in some slight way.

 

[donjohnston]

I grew up ON a pig farm called Z Farms. I currently own 20 dozen chickens…a small operation but big enough to keep my wife busy as a side business…but you (like the posters above) keep making those false assumptions, you’re good (or is it bad?) at it!
And people like you demand that no one do anything on their own property because it might bother you in some slight way.

Please provide the post where I "demand that no one do anything on their own property because it might bother me in some way".

Otherwise, STFU.

 

[Lindberg]

Well, you do have to admit it comes across a wee bit like, "there should be no consequences for violating rules I agreed to in writing."

No one has to agree to HOA rules in writing. The covenants run with the land, and bind the property. And the bylaws are made pursuant to those covenants, almost always by a minority of the people bound by them. HOAs are authoritarian and their power comes from state laws that give them the ability to lien your house and sell it out from under you, not from the residents' agreement.

 

[hindsight2020]

I think he meant "acknowledged" during closing, and yes there's a piece of paper where you initial as acknowledging you're aware of the existence of restrictions to the deed, at least in Texas.

But yes, this whole thing comes down to the way these plats are subdivided for development at inception in the first place, making HOA hegemony a near monopoly in present circumstances. That monopolization is the bigger beef I have with our sclerotic Euclidean land use/zoning, which is in my eyes a big contributor to said proliferation of HOA Hobson Choices. People acting like non-HOA options are available in earnest in present circumstances, are arguing in bad faith.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No one has to agree to HOA rules in writing. The covenants run with the land, and bind the property. And the bylaws are made pursuant to those covenants, almost always by a minority of the people bound by them. HOAs are authoritarian and their power comes from state laws that give them the ability to lien your house and sell it out from under you, not from the residents' agreement.

Agreeing to buy, going through with the closing, and accepting the deed is agreeing to covenants, liens, rights of way, and other restrictions and interests of record.

Don't think for a moment I like the way some HOAs go crazy with unreasonable restrictions. But no one forces anyone to buy property in a development with an HOA.

 

[Zeldman]

(Fortunately a paintball gun at midnight can probably correct the problem.)

And this will go on until one of the parties gets tired of replacing cameras, or the other party gets tired of shooting up cameras with paint balls. This will lead to also replacing security cameras that are watching the speed cameras..... and so on....

Just putting this out here...

 

[Half Fast]

And this will go on until one of the parties gets tired of replacing cameras, or the other party gets tired of shooting up cameras with paint balls. This will lead to also replacing security cameras that are watching the speed cameras..... and so on....

Just putting this out here...

View attachment 119250

We probably have quite a few old farts around here who will actually understand that!

 

[RussR]

But yes, this whole thing comes down to the way these plats are subdivided for development at inception in the first place, making HOA hegemony a near monopoly in present circumstances. That monopolization is the bigger beef I have with our sclerotic Euclidean land use/zoning, which is in my eyes a big contributor to said proliferation of HOA Hobson Choices. People acting like non-HOA options are available in earnest in present circumstances, are arguing in bad faith.

Not making fun, just curious, do you actually talk like this in person? hegemony, sclerotic, Euclidean, Hobson Choices...

I mean, I consider myself well-educated, but dang. You're like a walking thesaurus.

 

[Albany Tom]

I couldn’t care less what my neighbors are doing…but I intentionally moved to the country where not only are there no HOAs, my property is big enough that there is not a single house within sight of my house.

I want to give this a thousand likes. Freedom is, in part, based on a concept of letting people you don't like very much do things that you don't understand or don't like. We choose to allow them to exist. It's the right thing to do. I don't feel any need to allow HOA's to exist, even though they don't affect my rights directly. Because they're not people, they're an artificial construct that, to me, seems more than a bit immoral in principle. I'm not bent out of shape about it, and it's just my opinion, but I'm unlikely to change my mind.

I've never been in a HOA, either, for reasons others have mentioned. But I sympathize for those not bright enough to understand what they were signing up for, because they believed people who said "it'll be fine, the rules are all harmless, just sign here." So I feel absolutely no obligation to protect any HOA from the actions of anyone, to support any HOA's actions against anyone, or to hold harmless any individual member of an HOA from any legal action taken by them on behalf on an HOA. Or in shorter terms, I don't see why we should entertain their existence.

Maybe the simplest solution would be to recognize that the HOA is a condition of the current signer, not a anchor tied to the property, and as such doesn't transfer if the homeowner decides to sell. Or just let their membership drop when they don't pay the annual fees, and then they don't get the "benefits" of membership.

The whole thing reminds me a lot of "company towns" that the mines used to have. They'd get paid in company script, and could pick which of the model houses they wanted to live in. It was all legal, back in the day, just like HOAs are now...and those towns still exist, in PA and WV. It's interesting to drive though them and see the different changes that people have made to those company houses to make them different and unique. Most people wouldn't notice their history until it's pointed out.

 

[Lindberg]

Agreeing to buy, going through with the closing, and accepting the deed is agreeing to covenants, liens, rights of way, and other restrictions and interests of record.

The bylaws might not even exist when you buy your house. And they can change afterwards. By a minority of owners. IME, a small minority.

And you're bound by all of the above even if you're unaware of them at closing. Again, it's not about agreement. It's property law. No offer, acceptance, meeting of the minds, consideration, etc. required. There are arguments to make in favor of enforcing HOA bylaws, but "you agreed to it in writing," isn't it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The bylaws might not even exist when you buy your house. And they can change afterwards. By a minority of owners. IME, a small minority.

And you're bound by all of the above even if you're unaware of them at closing. Again, it's not about agreement. It's property law. No offer, acceptance, meeting of the minds, consideration, etc. required. There are arguments to make in favor of enforcing HOA bylaws, but "you agreed to it in writing," isn't it.

i guess we'll have to disagree about whether one agrees to accept "HOA rule" by purchasing a home in an HOA development.

"Being unaware" of the public record of what you are buying is a "you problem."

 

[Clip4]

No one has to agree to HOA rules in writing. The covenants run with the land, and bind the property. And the bylaws are made pursuant to those covenants, almost always by a minority of the people bound by them. HOAs are authoritarian and their power comes from state laws that give them the ability to lien your house and sell it out from under you, not from the residents' agreement

Your property taxes are enacted by an authoritarian Board elected by the residents of the county to pay for services such as airports, police, fire/EMS, roads, schools, parks, ect. A lot of property is auctioned everyday by counties from those who fail to pay their property taxes. I feel confident you don’t want your property taxes increased so the dead beats get a free ride.

Similarly HOAs Boards are elected by the residents and enact fees to provide services and in most cases those are roads, building maintenance, pools, landscaping, common areas ect. HOA also auction properties where homeowners fail to pay their HOA fees. They also auction property where the homeowner is fined because they have failed to properly maintain the structure and it has fallen into disrepair.

Just like at the county level, the election of the HOA Board is a political process where the person with the most votes win. Just like at the county level, less than 50% of the property owners vote.

HOA Boards want harmony and don’t just pass out fines. The owner is advised of the violation and given both a time period to correct the violation and a time period to appeal. In most cases the owner can request an extension to correct a rule violation. Normal people comply with the rule, some decide tell the Board it’s their land and they will do what they want. The fines process begins.

Same thing happens if the local cop gives you a warning for speeding and you tell him the law is wrong and you are going to drive like you want it’s your car.

 

[Ventucky Red]

North Carolina... the home of NASCAR, and they're concerned about speeding... jeeezzzzz, what's next, pulled tofu barb-ba-que Cuban sandwiches?

I guess my question is what happens if one of your guests violates the speed limit? Are you on the hook?

 

[Half Fast]

North Carolina... the home of NASCAR, and they're concerned about speeding... jeeezzzzz, what's next, pulled tofu barb-ba-que Cuban sandwiches?

CARPETBAGGER:

In the history of the United States, carpetbagger is a largely historical term used by Southerners to describe opportunistic Northerners who came to the Southern states after the American Civil War, who were perceived to be exploiting the local populace for their own financial, political, and/or social gain.​

 

[Clip4]

I want to give this a thousand likes. Freedom is, in part, based on a concept of letting people you don't like very much do things that you don't understand or don't like. We choose to allow them to exist. It's the right thing to do. I don't feel any need to allow HOA's to exist, even though they don't affect my rights directly. Because they're not people, they're an artificial construct that, to me, seems more than a bit immoral in principle. I'm not bent out of shape about it, and it's just my opinion, but I'm unlikely to change my mind.

I've never been in a HOA, either, for reasons others have mentioned. But I sympathize for those not bright enough to understand what they were signing up for, because they believed people who said "it'll be fine, the rules are all harmless, just sign here." So I feel absolutely no obligation to protect any HOA from the actions of anyone, to support any HOA's actions against anyone, or to hold harmless any individual member of an HOA from any legal action taken by them on behalf on an HOA. Or in shorter terms, I don't see why we should entertain their existence.

Maybe the simplest solution would be to recognize that the HOA is a condition of the current signer, not a anchor tied to the property, and as such doesn't transfer if the homeowner decides to sell. Or just let their membership drop when they don't pay the annual fees, and then they don't get the "benefits" of membership.

The whole thing reminds me a lot of "company towns" that the mines used to have. They'd get paid in company script, and could pick which of the model houses they wanted to live in. It was all legal, back in the day, just like HOAs are now...and those towns still exist, in PA and WV. It's interesting to drive though them and see the different changes that people have made to those company houses to make them different and unique. Most people wouldn't notice their history until it's pointed out.

People believing that things they don’t like should not exist is freedom?

 

[Albany Tom]

People believing that things they don’t like should not exist is freedom?

My statement may have needed either better writing or some parens. People allowing things to exist that they don't like is a requirement of freedom, or more accurately, liberty. As compared to systems that try to force common behavior. Now, there are of course extremes.

 

[Clip4]

My statement may have needed either better writing or some parens. People allowing things to exist that they don't like is a requirement of freedom, or more accurately, liberty. As compared to systems that try to force common behavior. Now, there are of course extremes.

There is no force in an HOA. It’s existence is public record. No one is forced to purchase or maintain property designated in an HOA. Free people can and do agree to conform to common behaviors. For the most part HOAs protect those with common behaviors against those with abnormal behaviors - such as driving too fast on private streets.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I've lived in an HOA neighborhood for 20 years. Our dues maintain 2 nice parks, a community pool, and a walking trail around a nice lake. When we lose trees every year in hurricanes, they hire clean up services.

The violation notices are aggravating to get, but rarely unjustified. In central Florida, if you don't maintain your yard, it will swallow your house. People have a lot of their net worth in their homes, so property values are important.

The board has been a never ending source of amusement, with all sorts of power struggles, petty disputes, and one case of outright corruption. One of my friends, a very nice fellow, volunteered to be on the board. He lasted about 9 months before quitting due to harassment.

People gonna be people.

 

[flyingron]

is the speed limit reasonable? How was it determined? Were there requisite engineering studies performed? can they prove they aren't arbitrary?

What is included in an engineering speed study?​

• Speeds of motorists in normal conditions
• Traffic volume
• Roadway type (e.g., interstate, freeway, city street)
• Roadway features (e.g., curves, hills, number of lanes)
• Roadway setting (e.g., urban, rural, residential, woodland, farmland)
• Number and spacing of driveways or intersections
• Sight distances
• Presence of on-street parking
• Pedestrian or bicyclist activity
• Crash history
• Pavement condition

Make the bastards work for it.

That kind of things goes for California. It means absolutely squat in North Carolina. The state here is allowed to create prima facie speed limits on a whim.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There is no force in an HOA. It’s existence is public record. No one is forced to purchase or maintain property designated in an HOA. Free people can and do agree to conform to common behaviors. For the most part HOAs protect those with common behaviors against those with abnormal behaviors - such as driving too fast on private streets.

That's a pretty good description. There are definitely exceptions but I think most people buy into an HOA-controlled development for the perceived benefits. Then complain about the drawbacks from the exact same source.

 

[Salty]

That's a pretty good description. There are definitely exceptions but I think most people buy into an HOA-controlled development for the perceived benefits. Then complain about the drawbacks from the exact same source.

If the perceived benefit is that you can't buy the house any other way, then I agree.

 

[Ed Haywood]

That's a pretty good description. There are definitely exceptions but I think most people buy into an HOA-controlled development for the perceived benefits. Then complain about the drawbacks from the exact same source.

Before: "oh honey, what a nice neighborhood! Everything is so well kept."

After: "who are they to tell me to trim my hedges? Tyranny!!!"

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Before: "oh honey, what a nice neighborhood! Everything is so well kept."

After: "who are they to tell me I can't erect a fence!? Tyranny!!!"

FIFY

 

[Hang 4]

The folks who say you should just suck it up because you looked at some paper haven't lived in an HOA where the board is completely dysfunctional. They do stupid stuff, people start to object, the board circles the wagons and it spirals downward. Someone gets elected who is going to "fix it" and last about 6 months before getting kicked off or just quitting in frustration. Eventually no one wants to be on the board and the only ones on it are the little napoleons who got picked last in elementary school and are getting their payback now. NONE of this has anything to do with the bylaws or the documents you read when you buy nor can you figure this out ahead of time.

The speeding thing is good example. How was it decided there was a speeding issue in the first place? Were notes sent to residents asking them to slow down as a first step? Is there a posted speed limit? Could they have put up more signs? Is it residents or non-residents doing the speeding? Since they can't fine non-residents, how will they control those speeders (assuming there are any).

While I believe in Caveat Emptor, it's nearly impossible to do the due diligence on the board itself vs what's written in the bylaws.

 

[Ed Haywood]

"Who are they to tell me I can't erect a fence!? Yes, I know I can build a PVC or wood fence in the back yard per ACC guidelines on the website, but I WANT a chain link fence in the front yard so my pit bulls have more room to run. I know my rights. It's in the Constitution."

FIFY

 

[Bob Noel]

reading this thread I keep thinking about an old "This Old House" project in Lexington MA, an historic old house. The team went through the layers of paint on the house and the home owners selected the yellow that the house was painted (I think it was the original color, but certainly only off by a few years). Anyway, some old biddy on the historic commission wouldn't let them use the yellow because "she didn't like it" - the yellow was historically accurate but nope, she didn't like it.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

"Who are they to tell me I can't erect a fence!? Yes, I know I can build a PVC or wood fence in the back yard per ACC guidelines on the website, but I WANT a chain link fence in the front yard so my pit bulls have more room to run. I know my rights. It's in the Constitution."

FIFY

Riiight...

A classic case of selective enforcement, but HOA still wins in the end

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This was not a chain link fence and it wasn't for pit bulls. Multiple neighbors have fences. This house had a fence (the same kind of fence too) before they moved in. They submitted twice. It was denied once and ignored the second time. But please keep straw-manning.

 

[midwestpa24]

reading this thread I keep thinking about an old "This Old House" project in Lexington MA, an historic old house. The team went through the layers of paint on the house and the home owners selected the yellow that the house was painted (I think it was the original color, but certainly only off by a few years). Anyway, some old biddy on the historic commission wouldn't let them use the yellow because "she didn't like it" - the yellow was historically accurate but nope, she didn't like it.

Now those are even more frustrating to deal with than HOAs. Unelected persons serving on Historical Commissions who are afforded power over properties they don't own, just because they are old. In our city, they stopped a business owner from painting the brick on the outside of their downtown business, because "history". Meanwhile they are promoting other businesses that have painted murals on the sides of their buildings. They also require landscaping for each business, however the landscaping can only be done by approved licensed contractors. You cannot purchase and plant things yourself.

 

[donjohnston]

While I believe in Caveat Emptor, it's nearly impossible to do the due diligence on the board itself vs what's written in the bylaws.

Only if you don't want to talk to people.

I was able to get an accurate read on the HOA's for the two homes I've owned in an neighborhood with an HOA. Just go talk to your future neighbors. If there's an issue with the HOA, you'll know really quick. Can it change? Of course. But there's no excuse for buying a home with an out of control HOA and then claiming "I didn't know".

 

[Hang 4]

Only if you don't want to talk to people.

I was able to get an accurate read on the HOA's for the two homes I've owned in an neighborhood with an HOA. Just go talk to your future neighbors. If there's an issue with the HOA, you'll know really quick. Can it change? Of course. But there's no excuse for buying a home with an out of control HOA and then claiming "I didn't know".

Well, ok - my neighborhood has ~1,100 homes. Not sure how I decide who to talk with. In my case it was fine when I moved in, 13 years later, every meeting is a screaming match. There's a few big issues that need to be resolved and I have zero confidence they can work through those issues. I suspect most HOA's are fine. My old neighborhood had one and the only issues were them not doing a lot when someone let their exterior get a bit ragged e.g. landscaping or paint. The new one has 4+ hour meetings where nothing gets resolved and everyone screams at everyone else. No one with a brain has any interest in getting on the board so it will likely continue for the foreseeable future.