Can a HOA impose and collect fines for speeding (NC state)

is the speed limit reasonable? How was it determined? Were there requisite engineering studies performed? can they prove they aren't arbitrary?

What is included in an engineering speed study?​


  • Speeds of motorists in normal conditions
  • Traffic volume
  • Roadway type (e.g., interstate, freeway, city street)
  • Roadway features (e.g., curves, hills, number of lanes)
  • Roadway setting (e.g., urban, rural, residential, woodland, farmland)
  • Number and spacing of driveways or intersections
  • Sight distances
  • Presence of on-street parking
  • Pedestrian or bicyclist activity
  • Crash history
  • Pavement condition
Make the bastards work for it.
 
JOhnH said:
Here's an idea for people that don't like their HOA.

Volunteer to be on the board.
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One organization I belong to has a board that basically runs the organization (budget, schedule of events, etc) during the year (there is an annual membership meeting). And the board decides who can run for a board seat.

what could possibly go wrong?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Well, you do have to admit it comes across a wee bit like, "there should be no consequences for violating rules I agreed to in writing."
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My issue is that many such agreements are now made electronically without provisions for alteration. On a paper form? I can strike through a line, initial the strike-through, and offer it to the other party for consideration. That's usually impossible with electronic forms.
 
HOAs are permitted to enact reasonable rules. Requiring the homeowners to provide the license plate numbers of the vehicles they are parking on premises is a reasonable rule.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
My issue is that many such agreements are now made electronically without provisions for alteration. On a paper form? I can strike through a line, initial the strike-through, and offer it to the other party for consideration. That's usually impossible with electronic forms.
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I see your point. It may happen from time to time in a recession where buyers sometimes have the upper hand, but I have not seen too many covenants that apply to a whole community stricken for one individual homebuyer.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
is the speed limit reasonable? How was it determined? Were there requisite engineering studies performed? can they prove they aren't arbitrary?

What is included in an engineering speed study?​


  • Speeds of motorists in normal conditions
  • Traffic volume
  • Roadway type (e.g., interstate, freeway, city street)
  • Roadway features (e.g., curves, hills, number of lanes)
  • Roadway setting (e.g., urban, rural, residential, woodland, farmland)
  • Number and spacing of driveways or intersections
  • Sight distances
  • Presence of on-street parking
  • Pedestrian or bicyclist activity
  • Crash history
  • Pavement condition
Make the bastards work for it.
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Good luck with that argument.
 
Things I don't understand about this thread:

1. Every HOA I've been involved with has meetings where these things are discussed. Typically almost nobody goes to the meetings. But that's the place to learn about and debate upcoming issues.

2. Every HOA I've been involved with has elections for officers. Typically almost nobody wants to be on the board. Therefore, the same people keep getting elected over and over again even if nobody really likes the way things are going, because there is no other option. The solution there is fairly obvious, run for the board.

3. We're talking about not wanting to be fined for speeding in your own neighborhood? Really? I mean, you want to go 5 or 10 over on the interstate, okay fine. I'm not going to question your decision making or evaluation of consequences. But 5 or 10 over on neighborhood streets? No, I'm not okay with that. Slow down. I have no problem with you getting a ticket or fine or whatever if it keeps you from speeding.

There are many, many examples of HOA overreach and ridiculous rules and all of that. Limiting vehicle speed in the neighborhood is not one of them.
 
RussR said:
Things I don't understand about this thread:

1. Every HOA I've been involved with has meetings where these things are discussed. Typically almost nobody goes to the meetings. But that's the place to learn about and debate upcoming issues.

2. Every HOA I've been involved with has elections for officers. Typically almost nobody wants to be on the board. Therefore, the same people keep getting elected over and over again even if nobody really likes the way things are going, because there is no other option. The solution there is fairly obvious, run for the board.

3. We're talking about not wanting to be fined for speeding in your own neighborhood? Really? I mean, you want to go 5 or 10 over on the interstate, okay fine. I'm not going to question your decision making or evaluation of consequences. But 5 or 10 over on neighborhood streets? No, I'm not okay with that. Slow down. I have no problem with you getting a ticket or fine or whatever if it keeps you from speeding.

There are many, many examples of HOA overreach and ridiculous rules and all of that. Limiting vehicle speed in the neighborhood is not one of them.
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It has nothing to do with speeding. It's about giving someone who has zero right to it, authority over you.

What problem is it solving? Surely there is a better way to solve it than a private police force?
 
Salty said:
It has nothing to do with speeding. It's about giving someone who has zero right to it, authority over you.

What problem is it solving? Surely there is a better way to solve it than a private police force?
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The OP is in an HOA with private roads.

The OP, by living there, undoubtedly had to sign and agree to the covenants and bylaws.

The covenants and bylaws certainly have a provision for a board and officers to make decisions, and when those decisions do and do not need to put up for a vote of all homeowners.

Assuming that the board followed those provisions, they are well within their authority to implement new rules and enforce them. Like them or not, that's essentially the whole purpose of an HOA.

As for what problem it's solving? Obviously I don't live there, but I have to assume the problem is people going way too fast on neighborhood roads. We have that sometimes here - 25 is posted, but I know I've seen cars doing 40. That's on a typical residential-width street with cars parked in driveways and some on the street, trash cans out for pickup, kids playing in yards, people walking dogs, all the normal stuff. There's no reason to be speeding down this street, I don't want somebody speeding down it, and would have no problem with them getting ticketed or fined.

What's another way to solve it? Speed bumps come to mind. But that's not a "better way", to me, because then you're punishing all the reasonable people every day instead of the few that choose to drive too fast.
 
No one wants to honor what they agree to anymore.
If you say you are going to do something, do it.
If you agree to a contract, abide by it.
Contracts are not something you begrudgingly sign in order to get what you want and never to have concern about again.

Don't like HOAs? Don't move there or sign an HOA contract.

This is just more people being people.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
No one wants to honor what they agree to anymore.
If you say you are going to do something, do it.
If you agree to a contract, abide by it.
Contracts are not something you begrudgingly sign in order to get what you want and never to have concern about again.

Don't like HOAs? Don't move there or sign an HOA contract.

This is just more people being people.
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I'm aware of an HOA that banned fences within the neighborhood. Non-negotiable. That is an unreasonable demand, made by unreasonable people.

The problem is that EVERY HOA HAS SOMETHING LIKE THIS, some stupid rule or regulation and they refuse to negotiate it. As HOA's propagate, it becomes harder and harder to find a place to live without one.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Well, you do have to admit it comes across a wee bit like, "there should be no consequences for violating rules I agreed to in writing."
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You also assume too much…that’s not why I have it.
 
My parents looked at many, many HOAs' covenants when looking for a house a few years back, as it was next to impossible to find a house without an HOA in the area that they were needing to buy. The restrictions ranged from annoying to insane.

There was one that banned all vehicles over 7' tall, which was a big problem because my parents drove (and still do) a 10-passenger van that was over that height.

There was one that only allowed one vehicle in the driveway at a time, and if they could prove that you were using your garage as storage (for your own personal stuff, even) and not to park that vehicle in, they would fine you until you put the vehicle in the garage.

There was one that required indoor, invisible-from-the-outside, renovations to be approved by the HOA, and they reserved the right to inspect your house periodically to insure you weren't renovating secretly.

The real issue with HOAs assessing fines for speeding is a complete lack of oversight or accountability. For example, if you want to dispute a traffic ticket, there's no review process and no reason for them to do anything about it unless you can afford to sue them. There's nothing stopping them from fining people they don't like more excessively than people they like. And those are just two extremely plausible scenarios, and doesn't even begin to cover the issues that have nothing to do with the actual implementation of such a policy.
 
I bought a home in a neighborhood with an HOA once. Not gonna happen again ...
 
midlifeflyer said:
Well, you do have to admit it comes across a wee bit like, "there should be no consequences for violating rules I agreed to in writing."
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Actually, I never saw any of the covenants or the rules before I bought the property. Those were never put in front of me. Maybe I was naïve because this is the first time I was in a HOA development. But I can tell you it will be the last one. And that goes for timeshares and condos. I’m really surprised the government allows their authority to be usurped in such a manner.
 
It's possible to simultaneously think it's wrong to speed in a sub-division and at the same time think it's insane for the HOA to enforce the speed limit with a camera and fines. Who calibrates it? What is the margin of error (0 over, 5 over)? Will the HOA President get to waive fines for his/her family? I'm pretty religious about the speed limits in my neighborhood and at the same time would go nuts if my HOA tried this.
 
SkyChaser said:
My parents looked at many, many HOAs' covenants when looking for a house a few years back, as it was next to impossible to find a house without an HOA in the area that they were needing to buy. The restrictions ranged from annoying to insane.

There was one that banned all vehicles over 7' tall, which was a big problem because my parents drove (and still do) a 10-passenger van that was over that height.

There was one that only allowed one vehicle in the driveway at a time, and if they could prove that you were using your garage as storage (for your own personal stuff, even) and not to park that vehicle in, they would fine you until you put the vehicle in the garage.

There was one that required indoor, invisible-from-the-outside, renovations to be approved by the HOA, and they reserved the right to inspect your house periodically to insure you weren't renovating secretly.

The real issue with HOAs assessing fines for speeding is a complete lack of oversight or accountability. For example, if you want to dispute a traffic ticket, there's no review process and no reason for them to do anything about it unless you can afford to sue them. There's nothing stopping them from fining people they don't like more excessively than people they like. And those are just two extremely plausible scenarios, and doesn't even begin to cover the issues that have nothing to do with the actual implementation of such a policy.
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Still being awesome
 
2-Bit Speed said:
I'm aware of an HOA that banned fences within the neighborhood. Non-negotiable. That is an unreasonable demand, made by unreasonable people.

The problem is that EVERY HOA HAS SOMETHING LIKE THIS, some stupid rule or regulation and they refuse to negotiate it. As HOA's propagate, it becomes harder and harder to find a place to live without one.
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Maybe I got lucky, but my HOA is pretty reasonable. And to be fair, maybe it's tough to determine their level of 'reasonableness' before purchasing. (And yes, you should definitely read the covenants before buying a house).

If I had a speeding problem in my neighborhood, I'd likely support efforts to curb that behavior. And if course if you're on the board you can have a say in how it's enforced. I am close to too many people who have been killed or injured by negligent drivers, so if you have a habit of speeding through residential areas, please stop.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
No one wants to honor what they agree to anymore.
If you say you are going to do something, do it.
If you agree to a contract, abide by it.
Contracts are not something you begrudgingly sign in order to get what you want and never to have concern about again.

Don't like HOAs? Don't move there or sign an HOA contract.

This is just more people being people.
Click to expand...
Check that thought. I never agreed to a surveillance state. What they’re doing now is not on the bylaws. Let’s understand these are not a government. They are private citizens. With no accountability.
 
RussR said:
The OP is in an HOA with private roads.

The OP, by living there, undoubtedly had to sign and agree to the covenants and bylaws.

The covenants and bylaws certainly have a provision for a board and officers to make decisions, and when those decisions do and do not need to put up for a vote of all homeowners.

Assuming that the board followed those provisions, they are well within their authority to implement new rules and enforce them. Like them or not, that's essentially the whole purpose of an HOA.

As for what problem it's solving? Obviously I don't live there, but I have to assume the problem is people going way too fast on neighborhood roads. We have that sometimes here - 25 is posted, but I know I've seen cars doing 40. That's on a typical residential-width street with cars parked in driveways and some on the street, trash cans out for pickup, kids playing in yards, people walking dogs, all the normal stuff. There's no reason to be speeding down this street, I don't want somebody speeding down it, and would have no problem with them getting ticketed or fined.

What's another way to solve it? Speed bumps come to mind. But that's not a "better way", to me, because then you're punishing all the reasonable people every day instead of the few that choose to drive too fast.
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The only thing I ever signed were the mortgage papers from the bank so you would be wrong.
 
Morgan3820 said:
The only thing I ever signed were the mortgage papers from the bank so you would be wrong.
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If you weren't shown the bylaws of the HOA before buying then your realtor didn't do their job. And in many states they have to be presented to you before purchase. Not sure about yours.
 
Morgan3820 said:
In your opinion.
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Well obviously mine is the only opinion I have, but I'm genuinely puzzled by this. Who would you prefer to enforce the speed limit on your private road? Or are you suggesting no enforcement, drive 100 mph if you want?
 
addressed to no one in particular ... So, if the HOA made the speed limit 5mph, that would be ok?
 
Morgan3820 said:
Let’s understand these are not a government. They are private citizens. With no accountability.
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I'm not sure I agree with this. They ARE a government. Presumably you elected them to be board members, didn't you? Therefore they are your elected governing body within the neighborhood. They are just as accountable as the mayor, through voting them out of office or a civil lawsuit or filing criminal charges. I'm pretty sure in our HOA bylaws we have the provision for impeachment as well.

If you are in an HOA where you don't vote for the board members, and they're appointed for life, well that's a strange HOA and I don't know what to say.
 
RussR said:
Well obviously mine is the only opinion I have, but I'm genuinely puzzled by this. Who would you prefer to enforce the speed limit on your private road? Or are you suggesting no enforcement, drive 100 mph if you want?
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Or are you suggesting as Bob Noel pointed out a 5 mile an hour speed limit? I accept the control that society places on me through law-enforcement officers, who are duly sworn to uphold the constitution. I do not except a bunch of unchecked yahoos from New Jersey or anywhere else Offering draconian penalties. They are threaten liens against your home, debt collection. It goes too far. even legitimate law enforcement cannot put a lien on my home if I don’t pay a traffic ticket. All they can do is take my drivers license.
 
JOhnH said:
I sort of agree, but sadly I know of no airparks without an HOA. However, I'm not sure I'd want to live in an airpark without one.
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There is at least one. As you allude to, it’s a trade.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I wasn't assuming anything. Just saying what it kinda sounded like. Apparently not just to me. You're assuming much more than I meant.
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You said it sounded like, "there should be no consequences for violating rules I agreed to in writing."

I agreed to nothing. My parents live in a restricted access community. They have plate readers at every entrance to the community. The community sends me a bill for “unauthorized trespass” if I enter to go to my parents house without notifying the office first.
Now I suppose you could argue that my parents agreed to it…although they were against its installation and implementation, and they’ve lived there well before such technology existed.
Either way, my parents are elderly and I need to check in on them, sometimes at hours when the office I am suppose to notify for permission is closed.
So tell me again how this sounds “anti-authority”…
 
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Country Flier said:
You said it sounded like, "there should be no consequences for violating rules I agreed to in writing."

I agreed to nothing. My parents live in a restricted access community. They have plate readers at every entrance to the community. The community sends me a bill for “unauthorized trespass” if I enter to go to my parents house without notifying the office first.
Now I suppose you could argue that my parents agreed to it…although they were against its installation and implementation, and they’ve lived there well before such technology existed.
Either way, my parents are elderly and I need to check in on them, sometimes at hours when the office I am suppose to notify for permission is closed.
So tell me again how this sounds “anti-authority”…
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I'd likely have responded differently if this use case was posted earlier. The specific comment I replied to was that "nobody knows" how many red lights you run, after I asked when you posted a link to a red light camera plate cover.
 
Baked Potato said:
I'd likely have responded differently if this use case was posted earlier. The specific comment I replied to was that "nobody knows" how many red lights you run, after I asked when you posted a link to a red light camera plate cover.
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Lol, and yet, that answer is still true!

Btw, traffic enforcement cameras are illegal in my state.
 
Country Flier said:
Lol, and yet, that answer is still true!

Btw, traffic enforcement cameras are illegal in my state.
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You don't know how many red lights you run?

I stand by my comment that someone purchasing a red light blocking plate cover, for the express purpose of thwarting red light and speed cameras, displays an anti-authority hazardous attitude.
 
RussR said:
I'm not sure I agree with this. They ARE a government. Presumably you elected them to be board members, didn't you? Therefore they are your elected governing body within the neighborhood. They are just as accountable as the mayor, through voting them out of office or a civil lawsuit or filing criminal charges. I'm pretty sure in our HOA bylaws we have the provision for impeachment as well.

If you are in an HOA where you don't vote for the board members, and they're appointed for life, well that's a strange HOA and I don't know what to say.
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That is not how I look at it. They may have been voted by some opaque dubious process because there is no accountability. There is no election board oversight. Again there is no oversight. There are no sunshine laws for the meetings. they can and do hold meetings behind closed doors. There is no accountability. The board can go spend huge amounts of money doing kind of whatever the heck they feel like. so if they are a government they are rogue.
 
It is the height of naiveté (I'm more cynical, and attribute bad faith arguing as the motivation, not naiveté) to attempt to equate HOA boards with the governing bodies that live under required due process (even if it isn't met) stipulated by our Republic's election laws. HOAs usurp our social contract in ways that may have started as insidious, but are now in your face, given the degree of monopoly of the housing market when one attempts to filter for non-HOA, nationally. To attempt to dismiss the latter is itself further evidence of bad faith arguing.
 
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