C172 versus Volvo SUV @ Northwest Regional

Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

wabower said:
Runway is lower than roadway. Students at the flight school are taught no-flap landings as standard. Students at the flight school must touch down no later than even with tetrahedron or go around.
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I'll confirm that was my experience this past April when I completed a checkout in their aircraft.
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

wabower said:
Local pilots who fly at that airport and use the school that owned the accident plane report that DT has been moved to within ~100' of runway end. Runway is lower than roadway. Students at the flight school are taught no-flap landings as standard. Students at the flight school must touch down no later than even with tetrahedron or go around.
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This combination seems truly stupid in retrospect. In particular, no-flap landings. What on Earth could be the reasoning behind that?

Every student should learn how to do a no-flap landing, but to do that every time seems silly, imprecise, and risky.

And I presume this school doesn't have any Warriors. While they don't seem to float much more with nailed approach speeds, with the common student speeds 10+ knots high and no flaps, that's going to be ugly.
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

The landing configuration SOP is a subject of much discussion among the locals. It's obviously contradictory to conventional thinking, but I've yet to hear anybody present the school's reasoning other than "that's just the way we do it here." I haven't discussed it with anybody at the school and don't expect to do so. The airport and its owners and pilots are in the midst of a prolonged series of seemingly unrelated accidents and fatalities. The best part of this one is that nobody was seriously hurt.

MAKG1 said:
This combination seems truly stupid in retrospect. In particular, no-flap landings. What on Earth could be the reasoning behind that?

Every student should learn how to do a no-flap landing, but to do that every time seems silly, imprecise, and risky.

And I presume this school doesn't have any Warriors. While they don't seem to float much more with nailed approach speeds, with the common student speeds 10+ knots high and no flaps, that's going to be ugly.
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The student was way too low, no doubt about that. But it's hard to believe the driver couldn't see that plane coming at him practically at the same level.
 
To the contrary, there's very little doubt that he's where he's supposed to be. I think you'll change your mind regarding the pilots's altitude/position when you see the entire picture and topography and understand the circumstances.

pete480 said:
The student was way too low, no doubt about that. But it's hard to believe the driver couldn't see that plane coming at him practically at the same level.
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One of the folks based at the field addressed the displaced threshold issue. He says the EPA proposed putting a sensing station near the end of the runway to measure those nasty 100LL emissions and was going to use near the end of 17 to do it. The AP manager talked about runway safety: EPA cited displaced threshold. The next day, the threshold was moved by management to near the end of the runway. Don't know about A/FD. Best, Dave
 
Endanger both the general public and pilots in an attempt to thwart a simple study...

....nice....
 
timwinters said:
Endanger both the general public and pilots in an attempt to thwart a simple study...

....nice....
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A 'simple study' that may put an end to general aviation.

Ironically, his decision to endanger his based pilots and anyone who travels on this semi-public road may have been beneficial for GA as a whole.
 
Speculation, and of a grand sort. Not admissible.

Besides, it's Texas not California.
 
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Re: hi wing meets SUV

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that. On his trajectory he would not have made the runway.
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

MAKG1 said:
This combination seems truly stupid in retrospect. In particular, no-flap landings. What on Earth could be the reasoning behind that?

Every student should learn how to do a no-flap landing, but to do that every time seems silly, imprecise, and risky.

And I presume this school doesn't have any Warriors. While they don't seem to float much more with nailed approach speeds, with the common student speeds 10+ knots high and no flaps, that's going to be ugly.
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What is it that makes no flap landings imprecise and risky?

I do no-flap landings every time I land in my current ride. As a student the only time I didn't make a no-flap landing (with minimal use of power) was when I got checked out in a Cherokee. Never had a problem putting the airplane on the numbers each and every time -particularly as a young punk student.

Now, I do realize that the star of this thread is hampered by the fact that you can't wheel land a 172, but even so shedding an extra 10 knots or 50 feet without flaps is not exactly hard.
 
Similar situation at my home town airfield. 1400' to 1600' grass w/ a county road immediately adjacent to the threshold of runway 13. There is a fair amount of traffic on this road, especially on weekends, because it's used to access the town's "brush dump".

If I ever hit a car/truck I wouldn't blame anyone but myself.

BTW, contrary to what others have said here about a plane's visibility when on final, when I approach this field I have no problem seeing left/right along the entire road. But, I'm doing a full flaps landing (40*) which really kicks the nose of the airplane down. If this FBO indeed teaches no flap landings then I have no opinion of the visibility because I've done so few.

A screen shot of 6MO2:

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Incidentally it seems the SUV covered 622 feet in 20 seconds for an average speed of 21 MPH (based on when it first appeared in the video until the collision):
 

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tlglenn said:
Incidentally it seems the SUV covered 622 feet in 20 seconds for an average speed of 21 MPH (based on when it first appeared in the video until the collision):
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I don't know the speed limits off those roads, but that seems pretty quick for that environment. Especially considering he would have needed to slow considerably to make the turn. Must have been in a rush to get to lunch.
 
Having seen the incredible ineptitude of the EPA, I think he should be awarded a medal for thwarting them even if he had to paint the runway numbers in the middle of the road.

timwinters said:
Endanger both the general public and pilots in an attempt to thwart a simple study...

....nice....
Click to expand...
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

MAKG1 said:
And I presume this school doesn't have any Warriors.
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The school is MarcAir. They are a Cessna Flight Center. Fleet is C172's, C182's and a Decathalon.
 
wabower said:
Having seen the incredible ineptitude of the EPA, I think he should be awarded a medal for thwarting them even if he had to paint the runway numbers in the middle of the road.
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Nice. :rofl:

I'll put up a different argument with regards to strict legal liability...the property owner, who apparently maintains the road and signage, accepted liability for the suitability of the road for safe use by the public. No indication of the hazards posed by low flying aircraft was present. The "Stop" signage painted on the road did not conform to any FAA or AASHTO guidance.

If I'm an attorney for either party the property owner is going to be dragged into the fray...
 
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Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

wabower said:
Students at the flight school are taught no-flap landings as standard. Students at the flight school must touch down no later than even with tetrahedron or go around.
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That does not make sense to me. It seems full flap (or at least 20 deg) landings should be the norm as they would create a steeper approach path so the airplane is at a higher altitude when it crosses the road.

Also, if the runway is short enough that they don't have room to move the DT down farther, landing with flaps will cut float, touchdown speed and will be better suited to a shorter runway.
 
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Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
What is it that makes no flap landings imprecise and risky?
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Shallow approach angles, higher touchdown speed, and decreased drag. Students have enough in their way, that making additional obstacles really isn't called for.

If the guy at hand were descending to the same (early) point at 40 deg flaps, this thread wouldn't exist.
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
What is it that makes no flap landings imprecise and risky?

I do no-flap landings every time I land in my current ride. As a student the only time I didn't make a no-flap landing (with minimal use of power) was when I got checked out in a Cherokee. Never had a problem putting the airplane on the numbers each and every time -particularly as a young punk student.

Now, I do realize that the star of this thread is hampered by the fact that you can't wheel land a 172, but even so shedding an extra 10 knots or 50 feet without flaps is not exactly hard.
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Well, the risk is always higher wih increased kinetic energy.
 
Seeing the video again makes me notice that 6-12" lower, that prop was going to chew through the roof.
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

MachFly said:
You can't just let people who are not familiar with airport operations drive on airport property.
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Says who?

I recently flew into RBD and used the Ambassador FBO. When my ride came to pick me up, they pushed a button at the gate, which rang the line guy's cell phone. He pushed a button and the gate opened, and my buddy (who knows nothing about planes or airports) drove through the gate which empties directly onto the ramp area. He had to navigate around a number of parked planes (without any guidance from a line guy or anyone else) to pull up in front of the hangar where I was waiting for him. (He wasn't even sure which direction to head until I happened to see his car in the distance, and called his cell phone to give him directions!)

There was nothing to stop him from running amok and driving down any taxiway or runway he wanted to. Apparently, this is SOP for this field and FBO. Can't imagine they're the only ones in the country who operate this way.
 
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Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Jim_R said:
Says who?
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Sez the FAA in AC 150/5210-20

There was nothing to stop him from running amok and driving down any taxiway or runway he wanted to. Apparently, this is SOP for this field and FBO. Can't imagine they're the only ones in the country who operate this way.
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So because other airports dont do a good job in protecting their airside from 'unqualified' vehicles, it is excusable ?
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Jim_R said:
Says who?

I recently flew into RBD and used the Ambassador FBO. When my ride came to pick me up, they pushed a button at the gate, which rang the line guy's cell phone. He pushed a button and the gate opened, and my buddy (who knows nothing about planes or airports) drove through and onto the ramp area. He had to navigate around a number of parked planes to pull up in front of the hangar where I was waiting for him.

There was nothing to stop him from running amok and driving down any taxiway or runway he wanted to. Apparently, this is SOP for this field and FBO. Can't imagine they're the only ones in the country who operate this way.
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Well kinda sorta both, it's just that typically you have to talk to somebody and either indicate you know the procedure or they inform you of it providing the required familiarity. It's not very much "Stop at the yellow crossing bars for aircraft taking off and landing" there you go, now you're informed and qualified to drive there. It's being said that this road is also serving the taxiway system, not particularly surprising givin the its in BF N Texas. I note that the car is on the runway side of the fence line so it's likely a goodwill eavesment to the airport rather than selling them the land. "Just use it, don't bother me with paper work".
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

Sure. What's the real threat?

weilke said:
Sez the FAA in AC 150/5210-20



So because other airports dont do a good job in protecting their airside from 'unqualified' vehicles, it is excusable ?
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Haven't been all that many of those. And as I pointed out, pilot in this one still had time to see and avoid if they weren't flying the Worlds Flattest Approach(TM).

It's a non-issue. Even in this one everyone survived and amazingly the car driver and passenger didn't get a prop to the skull.
 
weilke said:
They could all be dead.
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Yep. Really bad place to put a road.

Because there really is a left side to the intelligence bell-curve, and not everyone grows up to be Astronauts.

Both the airplane and car operators proved it. :)
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

weilke said:
Mh, maybe collisions between planes and vehicles in the runway safety area ?
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How often? The number is so low it becomes a statistical aberration, how much better you want? Some people are just stupid and there's not a damned thing you can do about it but clean up the mess.
 
Re: Dramatic footage shows plane hitting car

If that were truly the problem, the silly-ass gates would have been there many years ago when airports were busy and airplanes were flying rather than rotting in their hangars. Cars have been delivering and picking up passengers on airports for at least 60 years that I know of with acceptable accident rates.

I've never seen such a collision, but have seen many where planes collided or were hit by catering trucks, baggage tugs and airport vehicles that were specifically authorized to be there. This rule isn't about dings and dents, it's about the security-theater mentality of an idiotic government agency that continually fails to grasp the problems and implements ineffective solutions.

If somebody intends to wreak havoc on a GA ramp, they don't wait at the little box for a gate code, they just drive through the chain-link gate.
weilke said:
Mh, maybe collisions between planes and vehicles in the runway safety area ?
Click to expand...
 
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