Bill Anders, Apollo 8 astronaut, crashes in Puget Sound

[Ed Haywood]

Aircraft was N268AF for those who want to look at Flight Aware.

Hard to tell entry data because of infrequent refresh rate. Last ping shows 1200 AGL and 150mph. Too low and too fast for a Split S, generally speaking.

Note this was his first maneuver, so no negative G prior. IMO very low chance he G-LOC'd. More likely was accelerated stall out of the bottom. Could also have misjudged surface of water. 90 year old eyes and reflexes. But either way the real cause was entry altitude too low.

Airshow pilots with low level waivers pull through vertical early and approach surface at a low angle so closure rate is less.

 

[NavAir]

i cant help but think g-loc. maybe realized he was a bit lower than he liked and pulled a little harder to tighten it up and blacked out. at that age you just can't handle the g's that you could when younger. what ever it was, RIP general. blue skys and tailwinds.

Maybe it was G-LOC, but your assertion that age leads to decreased G tolerance is not supported by experimental evidence:

Relaxed +GZ tolerance in healthy men: effect of age - PubMed

Fifty-three healthy US Air Force aircrewmen, 26-55 yr old, volunteered for a centrifuge study designed to determine the effect of age on relaxed +GZ tolerance. Each was subjected to G forces of gradual and rapid onset, with G tolerance determined by standardized contraction of peripheral visual...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Van Johnston]

Commencement speaker at my AFIT graduation. Got to shake his hand going across the stage. CAVU.

 

[kyleb]

Third launch of a Saturn V (the second one blew up

I dont' remember a Saturn V blowing up. Best I can tell, Apollo 6 had engine problems, but didn't do anything like "blow up". Did I miss something?

 

[kyleb]

Aircraft was N268AF for those who want to look at Flight Aware.

Hard to tell entry data because of infrequent refresh rate. Last ping shows 1200 AGL and 150mph. Too low and too fast for a Split S, generally speaking.

Note this was his first maneuver, so no negative G prior. IMO very low chance he G-LOC'd. More likely was accelerated stall out of the bottom. Could also have misjudged surface of water. 90 year old eyes and reflexes. But either way the real cause was entry altitude too low.

Airshow pilots with low level waivers pull through vertical early and approach surface at a low angle so closure rate is less.

It looked like his downline was lengthy and with a relatively low G loading.

 

[3393RP]

That was not a loop.

Indeed. For the curious, I highly suggest the book/audio book "Rocketmen". Apollo 8 was way sketchier than Apollo 13.
Third launch of a Saturn V (the second one blew up so obviously you strap dudes into it for the next launch), first time mankind left Earth orbit - on a highly compressed schedule in order to beat the Russians. They strapped in knowing their chances of survival were 50/50.

Having no interest in watching the man die, I didn't bother inspecting the specifics of the maneuver.

Apollo 6, the second launch of a Saturn V with the S-1C, didn't "blow up." What are you referring to?

 

[Ed Haywood]

Maybe it was G-LOC, but your assertion that age leads to decreased G tolerance is not supported by experimental evidence:

Good news for us old fat guys!

This graph of tolerance to load and duration shows why G LOC is not usually a big problem doing civilian acro. The blue line is vertical position. Note very sharp drop off in tolerance after 3 seconds, from 9 down to 4G.

It's hard to sustain G for long in a typical prop aircraft. You dump energy too fast, so you have to use gravity. In a loop, you really only feel the load physically in the first 1/8 and last 1/8 of the radius. I watched a video of myself flying a full loop and it took 15 seconds. That means a 1/8 loop, like the bottom half of a split S, takes about 2 seconds.

 

[Ed Haywood]

It looked like his downline was lengthy and with a relatively low G loading.

That could be due to excessive entry airspeed, which IMO is an easier mistake to make. If the flight aware data is timely and he initiated at 150, that is way too fast and pretty much explains it.

 

[kyleb]

That could be due to excessive entry airspeed, which IMO is an easier mistake to make. If the flight aware data is timely and he initiated at 150, that is way too fast and pretty much explains it.

I wonder if he didn’t reset his altimeter prior to the flight? That’s how you put yourself in the corner needing to complete a 1500’ maneuver in 1200’.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I wonder if he didn’t reset his altimeter prior to the flight? That’s how you put yourself in the corner needing to complete a 1500’ maneuver in 1200’.

Possible. A Thunderbird pilot was killed due to wrong altimeter setting.

Most acro pilots set to AGL to avoid mental math.

 

[kyleb]

Possible. A Thunderbird pilot was killed due to wrong altimeter setting.

Most acro pilots set to AGL to avoid mental math.

Yep, but if he plain ol’ forgot to set it…

 

[unsafervguy]

Maybe it was G-LOC, but your assertion that age leads to decreased G tolerance is not supported by experimental evidence:

Relaxed +GZ tolerance in healthy men: effect of age - PubMed

Fifty-three healthy US Air Force aircrewmen, 26-55 yr old, volunteered for a centrifuge study designed to determine the effect of age on relaxed +GZ tolerance. Each was subjected to G forces of gradual and rapid onset, with G tolerance determined by standardized contraction of peripheral visual...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

however, the study was men between 25 and 55, does that extrapolate to a 90 year old man? I don't know, but i know i don't have the the physical stamina I had 5 years ago,and im only 60

 

[3393RP]

Possible. A Thunderbird pilot was killed due to wrong altimeter setting.

Most acro pilots set to AGL to avoid mental math.

The pilot in that incident ejected and survived.

F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-35 and F-22 reference

A pilot's error caused a Thunderbirds F-16C to crash shortly after takeoff during a September airshow at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho. The pilot ejected just before the aircraft impacted the ground.

www.f-16.net

 

[Salty]

He held an inverted 45 straight line for a long time. Perhaps he couldn’t remember if he was doing a Cuban 8 or a loop? Seriously, it wasn’t even close to a loop, he pulled right to the 45 and locked on it for a long time. I also wondered if it was intentional.

 

[kmacht]

At least he didn’t have a passenger with him. I suspect the reaction by some of you would have been far different upon hearing about a 90 year old pilot doing low level acrobatics and taking someone out in the process. It sucks for him but it was his choice to go fly like that. I had an older friend that did a very similar thing years ago and he ended up taking his fiancée and my wife’s best friend with him. I don’t have any sympathy for this guy no matter how accomplished he was in life but I do feel for any family and friends still around that now need to deal with his passing.

 

[Salty]

At least he didn’t have a passenger with him. I suspect the reaction by some of you would have been far different upon hearing about a 90 year old pilot doing low level acrobatics and taking someone out in the process. It sucks for him but it was his choice to go fly like that. I had an older friend that did a very similar thing years ago and he ended up taking his fiancée and my wife’s best friend with him. I don’t have any sympathy for this guy no matter how accomplished he was in life but I do feel for any family and friends still around that now need to deal with his passing.

No matter what the cause of the accident, he was 90 and likely left us doing something he loved and he hurt nobody. Sitting around waiting to die is no way to live. Those that loved him would not have wanted him to not be happy.

 

[Ed Haywood]

No matter what the cause of the accident, he was 90 and likely left us doing something he loved and he hurt nobody. Sitting around waiting to die is no way to live. Those that loved him would not have wanted him to not be happy.

Fighter pilot. Astronaut. First human ever to see the earth rise. Ambassador. CEO. Multimillionaire. Flew til he was 90. Died in the blink of an eye.

Where do I sign up?

 

[wanttaja]

Fighter pilot. Astronaut. First human ever to see the earth rise. Ambassador. CEO. Multimillionaire. Flew til he was 90. Died in the blink of an eye.

Where do I sign up?

Depending on what the investigation discovers, it looks like he died due to an error in basic airmanship. Not the last line *I* would want, in an obituary....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[aftCG]

Having no interest in watching the man die, I didn't bother inspecting the specifics of the maneuver.

Apollo 6, the second launch of a Saturn V with the S-1C, didn't "blow up." What are you referring to?

It's my recollection from the book. I'm not where I can research it. Does "was not a successful launch" fill in until I'm able to get back to you?

In this day and age we would certainly not think the outcome of the second launch justified strapping humans to the next rocket.

 

[3393RP]

It's my recollection from the book. I'm not where I can research it. Does "was not a successful launch" fill in until I'm able to get back to you?

In this day and age we would certainly not think the outcome of the second launch justified strapping humans to the next rocket.

The difficulties weren't related to the launch, and the issues regarding the second and third stage engines were identified and resolved. The Saturn V with the S-1C first stage was certified for manned flight, and Apollo 8 was cleared for its historic mission.

 

[traumamed]

Depending on what the investigation discovers, it looks like he died due to an error in basic airmanship. Not the last line *I* would want, in an obituary....

Ron Wanttaja

Meh. The man had nothing left to prove. Going out this way takes nothing away from his accomplishments in life. Maybe he went out on an unfortunate mental lapse, or maybe... he didn't. That means he went out doing something he loved at the least, and maybe, possibly, went out on his own terms. No one will ever know for sure. Clear skies and tailwinds out west, Gen Anders.

 

[AviationObserver]

Possible. A Thunderbird pilot was killed due to wrong altimeter setting.

Most acro pilots set to AGL to avoid mental math.

The pilot may have computed AGL for the altitude at which to start the maneuver (correctly), but then added the MSL of his home airfield (Nellis AFB), instead of the accident airfield (Mountain Home AFB). See here:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=46421

 

[Maxnr]

I'm not understanding a post crash fire in the middle of a cascade of water. No question that the tanks ruptured and allowed fuel to escape in a mist cloud. The usual ignition source is a hot exhaust pipe, but they were the first things to go under water.

I'm still puzzled over the physics.

 

[Salty]

I'm not understanding a post crash fire in the middle of a cascade of water. No question that the tanks ruptured and allowed fuel to escape in a mist cloud. The usual ignition source is a hot exhaust pipe, but they were the first things to go under water.

I'm still puzzled over the physics.

They skipped off the water.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Holy cow, Anders had one HELL of an aircraft collection!

https://heritageflight.org/explore/explore-aircraft/

 

[wanttaja]

Holy cow, Anders had one HELL of an aircraft collection!

https://heritageflight.org/explore/explore-aircraft/

Pretty big museum up there, with a lot of his memorabilia.

Skagit airport.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[bpolits]

He held an inverted 45 straight line for a long time. Perhaps he couldn’t remember if he was doing a Cuban 8 or a loop? Seriously, it wasn’t even close to a loop, he pulled right to the 45 and locked on it for a long time. I also wondered if it was intentional.

Yes, because of the extended downline you mention, it looked like a moment of indecision about whether he was going to roll upright or pull, then decided to pull. Gonna give him the benefit of the doubt on whether it was intentional just because. But it might be true that if one were going to do it intentionally, one would might hesitate like that to ensure the desired result... But again, I'm going with he made the wrong decision in going with the pull rather than the roll.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Question for those who have flown the T-34:

Materials I found state T-34 does not have inverted fuel and oil systems. True or False?

I also found an article saying T-34A does not have a header tank, but T-34B does. True or False? What is purpose of header tank if no inverted fuel?

 

[Fearless Tower]

My first thought was it might be deliberate. Split S with insufficient altitude is a rookie move. This man was no rookie. It was the first maneuver he flew, not one in a sequence, which reduces the chances of an entry gate error.

No rookie, but at that age he could have easily misread or mis-set his altimeter.

 

[Tools]

Honestly, any of us can make that mistake at any time. Almost certainly being 90 contributed to some degree.

I flew the T-34C, turbine. No inverted oil or gas either. Had like 5 or 10s zero g, 30 seconds negative 1 or more. Pretty common for most military stuff.

Wouldn’t just shut off like my RV-4 will (uh, so I’m told..) but things start sputtering pretty quick!

Header tank would give you time for things like angle of bank with reasonably low tanks, stuff like that. Also time to recognize a lift pump failure, and quit screwing around, stuff like that.

 

[Ed Haywood]

One point not causal but potentially relevant ...

Anders was either:
A) flying under an Aerobatic Competency Evaluation completed within the last 36 months;
B) flying in an active waivered box; or
C) violating the minimum aerobatic altitude of 1,500' per FAR 91.303.

 

[Pinecone]

Question for those who have flown the T-34:

Materials I found state T-34 does not have inverted fuel and oil systems. True or False?

I also found an article saying T-34A does not have a header tank, but T-34B does. True or False? What is purpose of header tank if no inverted fuel?

The A model has left and right tank selection. B model is on or off. So the B needs a header tank where the two wing tanks feed to avoid sucking air if you unport one side.

 

[Ed Haywood]

The A model has left and right tank selection. B model is on or off. So the B needs a header tank where the two wing tanks feed to avoid sucking air if you unport one side.

Where is the header tank located in the aircraft?

 

[Pinecone]

No idea.

 

[Ed Haywood]

NTSB initial report attached.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

NTSB initial report attached.

Well, if he meant to depart this life at the beginning of the maneuver, it sounds like he may have changed his mind partway through, and almost made it.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Well, if he meant to depart this life at the beginning of the maneuver, it sounds like he may have changed his mind partway through, and almost made it.

His interactions with his son and friend suggest it was not deliberate.

His friend said that while he often flew this route, he did not normally do acro there.

I'm inclined to think it was just a very unfortunate case of impromptu aerobatics ending badly. Initiated the split S a little bit too low or too fast, or perhaps misread the glassy surface of the water on pullout.

 

[Palmpilot]

His interactions with his son and friend suggest it was not deliberate.

His friend said that while he often flew this route, he did not normally do acro there.

I'm inclined to think it was just a very unfortunate case of impromptu aerobatics ending badly. Initiated the split S a little bit too low or too fast, or perhaps misread the glassy surface of the water on pullout.

I've never been in a seaplane, but has the water been reported as glassy at the time and location of the accident? Having spent a lot of my childhood on the Puget Sound shoreline, I would guess that it would be rare there.

 

[Piperonca]

I've never been in a seaplane, but has the water been reported as glassy at the time and location of the accident? Having spent a lot of my childhood on the Puget Sound shoreline, I would guess that it would be rare there.

Shooting touchdown autorotations to water in a float equipped helicopter can be treacherous regardless of surface condition. An IP and I damn near swamped a Bell 47G-4 one day on Lake Palourde in Louisiana. Looking straight at the water, it's hard to know when to pull pitch because height is so hard to judge. Can only imagine perception would be worse in a rapidly diving fixed wing if you don't have your altimeter set up.

 

[Tools]

I got A LOT of time VERY low over the water hard maneuvering. Radar Altimeter was a primary scan instrument ALWAYS.

Ya, no matter the condition, it can be tough.