Bill Anders, Apollo 8 astronaut, crashes in Puget Sound

Aircraft was N268AF for those who want to look at Flight Aware.

Hard to tell entry data because of infrequent refresh rate. Last ping shows 1200 AGL and 150mph. Too low and too fast for a Split S, generally speaking.

Note this was his first maneuver, so no negative G prior. IMO very low chance he G-LOC'd. More likely was accelerated stall out of the bottom. Could also have misjudged surface of water. 90 year old eyes and reflexes. But either way the real cause was entry altitude too low.

Airshow pilots with low level waivers pull through vertical early and approach surface at a low angle so closure rate is less.
 
unsafervguy said:
i cant help but think g-loc. maybe realized he was a bit lower than he liked and pulled a little harder to tighten it up and blacked out. at that age you just can't handle the g's that you could when younger. what ever it was, RIP general. blue skys and tailwinds.
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Maybe it was G-LOC, but your assertion that age leads to decreased G tolerance is not supported by experimental evidence:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Relaxed +GZ tolerance in healthy men: effect of age - PubMed

Fifty-three healthy US Air Force aircrewmen, 26-55 yr old, volunteered for a centrifuge study designed to determine the effect of age on relaxed +GZ tolerance. Each was subjected to G forces of gradual and rapid onset, with G tolerance determined by standardized contraction of peripheral visual...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
 
Commencement speaker at my AFIT graduation. Got to shake his hand going across the stage. CAVU.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Aircraft was N268AF for those who want to look at Flight Aware.

Hard to tell entry data because of infrequent refresh rate. Last ping shows 1200 AGL and 150mph. Too low and too fast for a Split S, generally speaking.

Note this was his first maneuver, so no negative G prior. IMO very low chance he G-LOC'd. More likely was accelerated stall out of the bottom. Could also have misjudged surface of water. 90 year old eyes and reflexes. But either way the real cause was entry altitude too low.

Airshow pilots with low level waivers pull through vertical early and approach surface at a low angle so closure rate is less.
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It looked like his downline was lengthy and with a relatively low G loading.
 
aftCG said:
That was not a loop.

Indeed. For the curious, I highly suggest the book/audio book "Rocketmen". Apollo 8 was way sketchier than Apollo 13.
Third launch of a Saturn V (the second one blew up so obviously you strap dudes into it for the next launch), first time mankind left Earth orbit - on a highly compressed schedule in order to beat the Russians. They strapped in knowing their chances of survival were 50/50.
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Having no interest in watching the man die, I didn't bother inspecting the specifics of the maneuver.

Apollo 6, the second launch of a Saturn V with the S-1C, didn't "blow up." What are you referring to?

 
NavAir said:
Maybe it was G-LOC, but your assertion that age leads to decreased G tolerance is not supported by experimental evidence:
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Good news for us old fat guys!

This graph of tolerance to load and duration shows why G LOC is not usually a big problem doing civilian acro. The blue line is vertical position. Note very sharp drop off in tolerance after 3 seconds, from 9 down to 4G.

It's hard to sustain G for long in a typical prop aircraft. You dump energy too fast, so you have to use gravity. In a loop, you really only feel the load physically in the first 1/8 and last 1/8 of the radius. I watched a video of myself flying a full loop and it took 15 seconds. That means a 1/8 loop, like the bottom half of a split S, takes about 2 seconds. Screenshot_20240608-143720.png
 
kyleb said:
It looked like his downline was lengthy and with a relatively low G loading.
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That could be due to excessive entry airspeed, which IMO is an easier mistake to make. If the flight aware data is timely and he initiated at 150, that is way too fast and pretty much explains it.
 
Ed Haywood said:
That could be due to excessive entry airspeed, which IMO is an easier mistake to make. If the flight aware data is timely and he initiated at 150, that is way too fast and pretty much explains it.
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I wonder if he didn’t reset his altimeter prior to the flight? That’s how you put yourself in the corner needing to complete a 1500’ maneuver in 1200’.
 
kyleb said:
I wonder if he didn’t reset his altimeter prior to the flight? That’s how you put yourself in the corner needing to complete a 1500’ maneuver in 1200’.
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Possible. A Thunderbird pilot was killed due to wrong altimeter setting.

Most acro pilots set to AGL to avoid mental math.
 
NavAir said:
Maybe it was G-LOC, but your assertion that age leads to decreased G tolerance is not supported by experimental evidence:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Relaxed +GZ tolerance in healthy men: effect of age - PubMed

Fifty-three healthy US Air Force aircrewmen, 26-55 yr old, volunteered for a centrifuge study designed to determine the effect of age on relaxed +GZ tolerance. Each was subjected to G forces of gradual and rapid onset, with G tolerance determined by standardized contraction of peripheral visual...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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however, the study was men between 25 and 55, does that extrapolate to a 90 year old man? I don't know, but i know i don't have the the physical stamina I had 5 years ago,and im only 60
 
Ed Haywood said:
Possible. A Thunderbird pilot was killed due to wrong altimeter setting.

Most acro pilots set to AGL to avoid mental math.
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The pilot in that incident ejected and survived.

aed.jpg


F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-35 and F-22 reference

A pilot's error caused a Thunderbirds F-16C to crash shortly after takeoff during a September airshow at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho. The pilot ejected just before the aircraft impacted the ground.
www.f-16.net www.f-16.net
 
He held an inverted 45 straight line for a long time. Perhaps he couldn’t remember if he was doing a Cuban 8 or a loop? Seriously, it wasn’t even close to a loop, he pulled right to the 45 and locked on it for a long time. I also wondered if it was intentional.
 
At least he didn’t have a passenger with him. I suspect the reaction by some of you would have been far different upon hearing about a 90 year old pilot doing low level acrobatics and taking someone out in the process. It sucks for him but it was his choice to go fly like that. I had an older friend that did a very similar thing years ago and he ended up taking his fiancée and my wife’s best friend with him. I don’t have any sympathy for this guy no matter how accomplished he was in life but I do feel for any family and friends still around that now need to deal with his passing.
 
kmacht said:
At least he didn’t have a passenger with him. I suspect the reaction by some of you would have been far different upon hearing about a 90 year old pilot doing low level acrobatics and taking someone out in the process. It sucks for him but it was his choice to go fly like that. I had an older friend that did a very similar thing years ago and he ended up taking his fiancée and my wife’s best friend with him. I don’t have any sympathy for this guy no matter how accomplished he was in life but I do feel for any family and friends still around that now need to deal with his passing.
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No matter what the cause of the accident, he was 90 and likely left us doing something he loved and he hurt nobody. Sitting around waiting to die is no way to live. Those that loved him would not have wanted him to not be happy.
 
Salty said:
No matter what the cause of the accident, he was 90 and likely left us doing something he loved and he hurt nobody. Sitting around waiting to die is no way to live. Those that loved him would not have wanted him to not be happy.
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Fighter pilot. Astronaut. First human ever to see the earth rise. Ambassador. CEO. Multimillionaire. Flew til he was 90. Died in the blink of an eye.

Where do I sign up?
 
Ed Haywood said:
Fighter pilot. Astronaut. First human ever to see the earth rise. Ambassador. CEO. Multimillionaire. Flew til he was 90. Died in the blink of an eye.

Where do I sign up?
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Depending on what the investigation discovers, it looks like he died due to an error in basic airmanship. Not the last line *I* would want, in an obituary....

Ron Wanttaja
 
3393RP said:
Having no interest in watching the man die, I didn't bother inspecting the specifics of the maneuver.

Apollo 6, the second launch of a Saturn V with the S-1C, didn't "blow up." What are you referring to?
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It's my recollection from the book. I'm not where I can research it. Does "was not a successful launch" fill in until I'm able to get back to you?

In this day and age we would certainly not think the outcome of the second launch justified strapping humans to the next rocket.
 
aftCG said:
It's my recollection from the book. I'm not where I can research it. Does "was not a successful launch" fill in until I'm able to get back to you?

In this day and age we would certainly not think the outcome of the second launch justified strapping humans to the next rocket.
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The difficulties weren't related to the launch, and the issues regarding the second and third stage engines were identified and resolved. The Saturn V with the S-1C first stage was certified for manned flight, and Apollo 8 was cleared for its historic mission.
 
wanttaja said:
Depending on what the investigation discovers, it looks like he died due to an error in basic airmanship. Not the last line *I* would want, in an obituary....

Ron Wanttaja
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Meh. The man had nothing left to prove. Going out this way takes nothing away from his accomplishments in life. Maybe he went out on an unfortunate mental lapse, or maybe... he didn't. That means he went out doing something he loved at the least, and maybe, possibly, went out on his own terms. No one will ever know for sure. Clear skies and tailwinds out west, Gen Anders.
 
I'm not understanding a post crash fire in the middle of a cascade of water. No question that the tanks ruptured and allowed fuel to escape in a mist cloud. The usual ignition source is a hot exhaust pipe, but they were the first things to go under water.

I'm still puzzled over the physics.
 
Maxnr said:
I'm not understanding a post crash fire in the middle of a cascade of water. No question that the tanks ruptured and allowed fuel to escape in a mist cloud. The usual ignition source is a hot exhaust pipe, but they were the first things to go under water.

I'm still puzzled over the physics.
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They skipped off the water.
 
Salty said:
He held an inverted 45 straight line for a long time. Perhaps he couldn’t remember if he was doing a Cuban 8 or a loop? Seriously, it wasn’t even close to a loop, he pulled right to the 45 and locked on it for a long time. I also wondered if it was intentional.
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Yes, because of the extended downline you mention, it looked like a moment of indecision about whether he was going to roll upright or pull, then decided to pull. Gonna give him the benefit of the doubt on whether it was intentional just because. But it might be true that if one were going to do it intentionally, one would might hesitate like that to ensure the desired result... But again, I'm going with he made the wrong decision in going with the pull rather than the roll.
 
Question for those who have flown the T-34:

Materials I found state T-34 does not have inverted fuel and oil systems. True or False?

I also found an article saying T-34A does not have a header tank, but T-34B does. True or False? What is purpose of header tank if no inverted fuel?
 
Ed Haywood said:
My first thought was it might be deliberate. Split S with insufficient altitude is a rookie move. This man was no rookie. It was the first maneuver he flew, not one in a sequence, which reduces the chances of an entry gate error.
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No rookie, but at that age he could have easily misread or mis-set his altimeter.
 
Honestly, any of us can make that mistake at any time. Almost certainly being 90 contributed to some degree.

I flew the T-34C, turbine. No inverted oil or gas either. Had like 5 or 10s zero g, 30 seconds negative 1 or more. Pretty common for most military stuff.

Wouldn’t just shut off like my RV-4 will (uh, so I’m told..) but things start sputtering pretty quick!

Header tank would give you time for things like angle of bank with reasonably low tanks, stuff like that. Also time to recognize a lift pump failure, and quit screwing around, stuff like that.
 
One point not causal but potentially relevant ...

Anders was either:
A) flying under an Aerobatic Competency Evaluation completed within the last 36 months;
B) flying in an active waivered box; or
C) violating the minimum aerobatic altitude of 1,500' per FAR 91.303.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Question for those who have flown the T-34:

Materials I found state T-34 does not have inverted fuel and oil systems. True or False?

I also found an article saying T-34A does not have a header tank, but T-34B does. True or False? What is purpose of header tank if no inverted fuel?
Click to expand...

The A model has left and right tank selection. B model is on or off. So the B needs a header tank where the two wing tanks feed to avoid sucking air if you unport one side.
 
Pinecone said:
The A model has left and right tank selection. B model is on or off. So the B needs a header tank where the two wing tanks feed to avoid sucking air if you unport one side.
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Where is the header tank located in the aircraft?
 
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