Are they, though?

Jim_R

Jim_R

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Are private helicopters really "in demand"?

I dunno, maybe they are. My first thought was, "I know of lots of folks who own planes but I don't know anyone who owns a helicopter," but that maybe akin to saying, "I know lots of people who own boats, but I don't know anyone who owns a yacht." That doesn't mean there's no demand for yachts--it just means I don't move in those demographic circles.

So...who here has put down their non-refundable deposit for one of these?

www.bbc.com

Why private helicopters are still in demand

Despite the flagging economy, demand is strong for helicopters and new models are being launched.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
 
Jim_R said:
Are private helicopters really "in demand"?
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In general, the US private, Part 91 helicopter market has been rather stable for quite some time with noted increases in various areas. And there are interested parties in the US that are following this. However, the global private market has seen some notable growth in a number of countries. Regardless, the Hill HX50 from your article is an anomaly in the general rotorcraft market as it comes from a corner that few to none have succeeded. The HX designer is following a different path that currently is being watched very closely on many sides which if he succeeds may be a game changer in specific parts of the industry especially if he keeps close to his projected costs.
 
Vaporware. No way is he going to produce a viable turbine helicopter for 25-50% less than the existing offerings.
 
ateamer said:
Vaporware. No way is he going to produce a viable turbine helicopter for 25-50% less than the existing offerings.
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Except the HX-50 is the experimental/amateur-built version.
 
Jim_R said:
Are private helicopters really "in demand"?

I dunno, maybe they are. My first thought was, "I know of lots of folks who own planes but I don't know anyone who owns a helicopter," but that maybe akin to saying, "I know lots of people who own boats, but I don't know anyone who owns a yacht." That doesn't mean there's no demand for yachts--it just means I don't move in those demographic circles.

So...who here has put down their non-refundable deposit for one of these?

www.bbc.com

Why private helicopters are still in demand

Despite the flagging economy, demand is strong for helicopters and new models are being launched.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
Click to expand...
If I could buy, and operate, a safe helicopter for even 200% of my expenses for a plane, I’d own one. But I can’t.

There is a demand for many things that don’t exist. That doesn’t make them magically exist.
 
Salty said:
If I could buy, and operate, a safe helicopter for even 200% of my expenses for a plane, I’d own one. But I can’t.
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Curious. So if you were in the market for a helicopter… and Bell Helicopter offered a new E/AB turbine helicopter for $200k less than a new Cirrus SR22, you wouldn’t give it time of day?
 
Bell206 said:
Curious. So if you were in the market for a helicopter… and Bell Helicopter offered a new E/AB turbine helicopter for $200k less than a new Cirrus SR22, you wouldn’t give it time of day?
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I would be tempted, but the operational cost would still be prohibitive.
 
Salty said:
I would be tempted, but the operational cost would still be prohibitive.
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So simply for discussion, based on 100 hours per year, if the HX50 maintenance costs were equal to the mx costs on an SR22, would you still consider that prohibitive?
 
Bell206 said:
So simply for discussion, based on 100 hours per year, if the HX50 maintenance costs were equal to the mx costs on an SR22, would you still consider that prohibitive?
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Don’t forget 3 x the fuel cost - or more.

But yeah, I would love to fly helicopter for recreation. But I’m only insane enough to own a radial, not a rotor.
 
Every few months, a guy from Southwest Florida flies his family into our airfield in his R44 to spend the weekend in Tampa. I mean, it's cool and everything, but he could do pretty much the same thing with an Archer or 182 at 1/4 the cost. And he could take that fixed wing airplane on 500-1000nm trips that would be brutal in a GA helo.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Every few months, a guy from Southwest Florida flies his family into our airfield in his R44 to spend the weekend in Tampa. I mean, it's cool and everything, but he could do pretty much the same thing with an Archer or 182 at 1/4 the cost. And he could take that fixed wing airplane on 500-1000nm trips that would be brutal in a GA helo.
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Are you sure he doesn’t also have a fixed wing? His Gulfstream might be a bit much just to zip up to Tampa for a couple of days.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Every few months, a guy from Southwest Florida flies his family into our airfield in his R44 to spend the weekend in Tampa. I mean, it's cool and everything, but he could do pretty much the same thing with an Archer or 182 at 1/4 the cost. And he could take that fixed wing airplane on 500-1000nm trips that would be brutal in a GA helo.
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Those people typically also own an airplane, or have access to one to fly longer trips.

The R44 will do a long cross country with 3 to 4 people at speeds comparable to your Decathlon, and the fuel burn would be 4 to 5 gallons an hour more.

Oh, and most R44 owners are not sweating the cost of their helicopter compared to an Archer or 182. ;)
 
Salty said:
Don’t forget 3 x the fuel cost - or more.
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But thats a feature with any turbine. Take a turbo recip to altitude and it gets rather thirsty too. Regardless, if Hill can hit his goals and numbers on the HX50 you may just get a shot at that recreational helicopter you want sooner than later. Will be interesting in the next year or two.
Ed Haywood said:
but he could do pretty much the same thing with an Archer or 182 at 1/4 the cost.
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Not if he flew from his backyard at home to Tampa. ;)
 
Bell206 said:
Not if he flew from his backyard at home to Tampa. ;)
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He didn't, though. He bases at his local GA airport for easier access to Avgas, maintenance, and a hangar. If he did, would it be worth 4x the cost to avoid a 10 mile drive?
 
Ed Haywood said:
He didn't, though. He bases at his local GA airport for easier access to Avgas, maintenance, and a hangar. If he did, would it be worth 4x the cost to avoid a 10 mile drive?
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Not all of us make decisions from the same financial perspective. Bear in mind that personal aviation rarely makes any sense at all for any of us when considered on a financial basis.
 
Somebody with that much money ought to be flying a JetRanger. Turbine with a proven rotor system.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
If he did, would it be worth 4x the cost to avoid a 10 mile drive?
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I can tell you with certainty that the private helicopter owners I knew and worked for wouldn't give the "4x the cost" a single thought. Its no different than some people buy a PC-12 to take family vacations or someone to buy an Extra300 to do their weekend aero. There are even some people who will lease a helicopter for the summer so they can fly from the airport to the beach house vs drive the 30 miles. But the interesting thing the HX50 brings to the table is he is creating a much larger opportunity for those who want a helicopter but are financially below the R44 level yet above wanting the current E/AB or ultralight helicopter offerings.
 
I've got a buddy who owns an R66. He was on a wait list for a while. Prior to that he owned both an R44 and an Agusta 109C.

He also happens to own a Citation, an Icon Seaplane and a couple of other flying toys.

Another acquaintance owns a TBM650, a B206B3 and a Citation.

Can't have a helicopter and no airplane...
 
I watched the HX50 live reveal on YT a couple months back. Definitely exciting stuff and a game changer if he can pull it off. I have no doubt Hill will meet his performance. 500 hp with an airframe that slick will yield 140 kts and 700 miles. What I worry about is rising costs and an in house engine vs a tried and true engine (RR-250). ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
What I worry about is rising costs and an in house engine vs a tried and true engine (RR-250).
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As to costs, in its present form, Hill is manufacturing most components/parts in-house to control costs. This was the “downfall” of the Marenco/Kopter SH09 as they moved from in-house mfg to store bought and out-priced themselves in the market and their eventual sellout to Leonardo.

So while there will probably be increases they will be more manageable with the HX. However, whether the HC or certified version stays on track cost wise still needs to be seen. But its my understanding Hill’s priority and the core business is the HX, or E/AB version.

As to the engine, he’s basically copying a Turbomeca Arriel core with a new style compressor. Matter of fact all the drivetrain uses existing/proven designs with upgrades where possible or needed. But I think you’re correct in that the engine is the most complex part to get right. Time will tell.

However, there is a growing consensus that if anyone can get this whole project to fruition and at a realistic cost point, its Jason Hill and his team. Know 2 people who went to the UK for the unveiling and came back with a lot of praise and a second production slot. Definitely something to watch.
 
Bell206 said:
Except the HX-50 is the experimental/amateur-built version.
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I'd be willing to bet that the increased insurance costs will eat up most of the savings on the initial acquisition costs over 5-10 years.
 
Jon Howard said:
I'd be willing to bet that the increased insurance costs will eat up most of the savings on the initial acquisition costs over 5-10 years.
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That was one of the questions I had. However, Hill is creating a mutual insurance entity to handle the hull loss side and control costs for owners. The liability side will be handled by 3rd party companies. And given the hull costs are the main driver on rotorcraft policies, this should reduce costs significantly especially if the factory is involved.
 
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