Anyone buying a Rivian?

Also, someone needs to explain to me what vegan leather is because that sounds like Vinyl to me.

It depends. Most "vegan leather" is just PVC, a.k.a. vinyl. Apparently, some of it is made out of stuff like pineapple leaves, cactus, and cork. However, since those alternative materials all say to keep out of excessive heat and direct sunlight, I'd be willing to bet their "vegan leather" is just a marketing gimmick to avoid saying "Comes with vinyl seats!"
 
I'm curious what the range would be while towing, if it could actually make a 400mi trip without recharging with a 5-7k trailer I might actually be able to use it. Then again the price delta between that and a new F-150 still buys a lot of gas....

I have only had a single a pickup truck pulling that much and be able to go 400 miles; all others needed gas stops.
But then again, I was driving a truck in the Appalachia mountains.

Tim
 
I'm curious what the range would be while towing, if it could actually make a 400mi trip without recharging with a 5-7k trailer I might actually be able to use it. Then again the price delta between that and a new F-150 still buys a lot of gas....

I think that towing range on pickup trucks (in broad general terms) is 40-50% of unloaded range. I think that works for most half ton pickups. Had a GMC with 6.0L gas. 13 mpg empty. 6-7 towing 3,000-4,000 lbs. have a RAM ecodiesel. 26 mpg empty 12 mpg towing. I read a test somewhere on the electric F150 300 mi range empty. I think around 150 mi towing.

There will be some variance, but all the manufacturers have smart people working for them and they are pretty familiar (and limited by) the laws of physics.
 
I think that towing range on pickup trucks (in broad general terms) is 40-50% of unloaded range. I think that works for most half ton pickups. Had a GMC with 6.0L gas. 13 mpg empty. 6-7 towing 3,000-4,000 lbs. have a RAM ecodiesel. 26 mpg empty 12 mpg towing. I read a test somewhere on the electric F150 300 mi range empty. I think around 150 mi towing.

There will be some variance, but all the manufacturers have smart people working for them and they are pretty familiar (and limited by) the laws of physics.

You only get 6-7mpg towing 4K with a 6.0L? My 5.4L in the '98 and '08 F-150s never went under 10mpg while towing a 4Klbs boat and trailer. Normal highway was 18mpg. Can't imagine it dragging down to single digits, unless the trailer was really tall/draggy from a wind profile.
 
I remember the Rivian was part of the " Long way Up" show on Apple TV staring Ewan McGregor - at the time I thought it was a cool idea and all the vehicles were electric except the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter.
 
You only get 6-7mpg towing 4K with a 6.0L? My 5.4L in the '98 and '08 F-150s never went under 10mpg while towing a 4Klbs boat and trailer. Normal highway was 18mpg. Can't imagine it dragging down to single digits, unless the trailer was really tall/draggy from a wind profile.

You may be correct. It’s been 15 years. It was a 2003 Quadrasteer. Full time AWD with four wheel steering pickup. Great truck. Horrible fuel mileage. I also drive pretty fast so others probably did better. But my point, poorly made I guess, is range suffers noticeably towing. Electric, gas or diesel.
I guess I’ll restate my general rule of thumb. Towing range is 50% +/-10% empty range. (I use 50% as a rule except when posting on the internet) Still a significant impact.
 
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You may be correct. It’s been 15 years. It was a 2003 Quadrasteer. Full time AWD with four wheel steering pickup. Great truck. Horrible fuel mileage. I also drive pretty fast so others probably did better. But my point, poorly made I guess, is range suffers noticeably towing. Electric, gas or diesel.
I guess towing range can be 40-60% empty range. Still a significant impact.

Absolutely. That's the use-case where I wouldn't even consider an EV truck for the time being. Being able to tow the boat to a lake 70-80 miles away for the day (or even for an overnight stay) and then come back would likely exceed the single-charge range of current EV truck offerings. Anyone who has done similar knows that once you've spent 8+hours out in the heat on the water, you don't want to have to stop and charge for an hour in order to make it the rest of the way home. The quick splash for fuel (if needed at all) is much more preferable in that case. Unless they are going to provide EV charging at the boat ramp where the vehicle stays all afternoon, it's not much of an option for towing.
 
Absolutely. That's the use-case where I wouldn't even consider an EV truck for the time being. Being able to tow the boat to a lake 70-80 miles away for the day (or even for an overnight stay) and then come back would likely exceed the single-charge range of current EV truck offerings. Anyone who has done similar knows that once you've spent 8+hours out in the heat on the water, you don't want to have to stop and charge for an hour in order to make it the rest of the way home. The quick splash for fuel (if needed at all) is much more preferable in that case. Unless they are going to provide EV charging at the boat ramp where the vehicle stays all afternoon, it's not much of an option for towing.

Sounds like the marina parking lot may be a good place for some Level 2 chargers in the near future.
 
Sounds like the marina parking lot may be a good place for some Level 2 chargers in the near future.

Man, that would be a large investment for little return. Not to mention that it would be extremely seasonal in use for most of the country!
 
Man, that would be a large investment for little return. Not to mention that it would be extremely seasonal in use for most of the country!

Might not be as good in northeast as it would be in the southeast.

Level 2 chargers are the ones people have at home. Also seen at many hotels. They are not as pricey as the Level 3 chargers.
 
Might not be as good in northeast as it would be in the southeast.

Level 2 chargers are the ones people have at home. Also seen at many hotels. They are not as pricey as the Level 3 chargers.

I get it, but you're talking basically Houston and to the South with regard to seasonality. Pleasure boaters for most of the country have a boating season from May-Sept, with June-Aug being the heavy traffic months. Guys with fishing boats are usually March-November. Outside of southern coastal states, it wouldn't cash flow very well trying to run 50 240V Level 2 chargers into the middle of the parking lot of every boat ramp/marina. Also, it's primarily a weekend activity, so most would go unused Mon-Friday even in the coastal regions. Maybe one day it will pen out, but the type of guys willing to buy an EV truck are probably not the same ones towing their bass boat/pontoon boat to the lake.
 
Definitely a chicken-and-egg problem.

I agree, I don't see a lot of EV trucks pulling boats to the marina anytime soon unless it's a really short distance. Hard to get someone to start with no chargers. Doesn't make sense to buy chargers if no one is doing it. The first EV truck owners going to the lake will probably need to use a charging station near the lake and either stop and eat or use one of the high powered 350 kW Level 3 chargers.
 
Probably just a Photoshop job, but what about this?

51955148684_fa7805c99b.jpg
 
Probably just a Photoshop job, but what about this?

51955148684_fa7805c99b.jpg

Did tesla recently poach the designer of the Subaru Brat?

lol at that but why not? Probably ticks a box for a lot of people.

The more I look at the R1S the more I sorta like the thing. Doesn't tick my mission boxes, but, I am trying to bend the mission to conform. :D
 
Definitely a chicken-and-egg problem.

I agree, I don't see a lot of EV trucks pulling boats to the marina anytime soon unless it's a really short distance. Hard to get someone to start with no chargers. Doesn't make sense to buy chargers if no one is doing it. The first EV truck owners going to the lake will probably need to use a charging station near the lake and either stop and eat or use one of the high powered 350 kW Level 3 chargers.

Maybe an all electric ski boat will help out with charger economics.

https://nautique.com/models/super-air-nautique-gs22e/overview
 
I get it, but you're talking basically Houston and to the South with regard to seasonality. Pleasure boaters for most of the country have a boating season from May-Sept, with June-Aug being the heavy traffic months. Guys with fishing boats are usually March-November. Outside of southern coastal states, it wouldn't cash flow very well trying to run 50 240V Level 2 chargers into the middle of the parking lot of every boat ramp/marina. Also, it's primarily a weekend activity, so most would go unused Mon-Friday even in the coastal regions. Maybe one day it will pen out, but the type of guys willing to buy an EV truck are probably not the same ones towing their bass boat/pontoon boat to the lake.

A fair number of harbor/marinas are near downtown areas of cities. e.g. Annapolis, Boston... in these locations, the marinas often have retail/shopping/restaurants and even paid parking in the downtown areas. So it might pay off, and also would appeal to people who generally have a shorter distance to pull the boat anyways.

Tim
 
Great vid from Rich on the problems with road tripping in a non Tesla EV today.

 
$100K for a vehicle and build quality like this. No attention to detail today.

 
There are 4 of them in my neighborhood. I appreciate the variety, but covet one a lot less than when I binged long way up.

I'm convinced I would buy nearly anything Obi-wan hawks at me.
 
I think electric is the future, but I think in 5 more years the technology will have matured. As they say I dont like flying the A-model of anything.
 
I think electric is the future, but I think in 5 more years the technology will have matured. As they say I dont like flying the A-model of anything.

That’s if these companies will be around in 5 years. As Elon Musk stated recently, Rivian and Lucid are on the path of bankruptcy. If EVs are the way of the future, now would be an excellent time to buy RIVN and LCID. ;)
 
That’s if these companies will be around in 5 years. As Elon Musk stated recently, Rivian and Lucid are on the path of bankruptcy. If EVs are the way of the future, now would be an excellent time to buy RIVN and LCID. ;)

the writing is on the wall, the big automakers are jumping in this market some of them will have better products at better prices than Tesla. It is only recently that Tesla has made money. All I was saying is wait a few more years before buying electric.
 
the writing is on the wall, the big automakers are jumping in this market some of them will have better products at better prices than Tesla. It is only recently that Tesla has made money. All I was saying is wait a few more years before buying electric.

In 5 years they’ll be a much larger pool of EVs to choose from but the prices are still gonna be out of touch for the common buyer. I was looking forward to the new Ioniq 6 but with everything I want, it would top $60K. Not paying $60K for an EV when my used Model S has the same performance at a much lower price.

In 5 years we’ll have a more extensive charging network but we’ll still have the same problems with reliability and charging speed. Like Rich said, the common person isn’t gonna want to sit behind a Walmart for an hour and a half charging their Rivian. Also, as he found out, the rates they’re charging ($.43 / kwh) is essentially the equivalent of buying gas for your truck.

People want to make EVs out to be some kind of transportation game changer but it takes guys like Rich to speak truth. That is, they’re pretty cool but they’ve got some serious drawbacks to ownership.
 
Just for fun, I looked at the F-150 Lightning build page and was done in a few seconds when I saw a price tag of over $90,000.

Nope.
 
They installed some new Tesla charging stations in my little home town. I get a good chuckle every time I ride by and see people sitting in their cars waiting for them to charge. No way I am ever getting on the electric fab unless they eventually ban every gas car on the road. In 20 years we will finally start admitting how terrible of an idea electric cars were.
 
Like Rich said, the common person isn’t gonna want to sit behind a Walmart for an hour and a half charging their Rivian. Also, as he found out, the rates they’re charging ($.43 / kwh) is essentially the equivalent of buying gas for your truck.
People keep bringing up this same old argument and it keeps getting shot down with the same rebuttal. The great majority of people would only need to use one of those inconvenient and expensive chargers a couple of times a year. The rest of the time it gets fully charged every night for night time residential rates.

Yeah, for those that don't have residential chargers, perhaps they need to wait a few years for the technology to catch up to their needs. Personally, I'm going to buy an EV as soon as I need to trade in my gas truck. But it is already 9 years old and looks and runs like new, even though it has lived it's whole life in the corrosive state of Florida; on the coast no less, and it is a GM product. Maybe I'll break down and trade it in around 2030 regardless. By then I'll probably need the full self driving capability any way.
 
Are apartment complexes going to put in chargers for every resident? How about hotels? How about those who have multiple drivers? When all my siblings and I lived with my parents before our great diaspora began, my parents had seven cars that parked at their house, and five out of seven of those cars were daily commuters. Granted, I know that's rare, but even someone with two teenagers at home would have to put in four chargers. Which means some of those chargers are going to have be out of the garage, since very few people have four car garages. How expensive is that going to be, and how will you prevent people from simply stealing electricity from them when everyone is gone for the day?

I'm not saying there isn't a way to fix the problems mentioned, just that there are tons of problems to be fixed before residential chargers become a viable reality for most people.
 
25 years ago I wrote a paper in college about the viability of Alternative Fuel Vehicles (AFVs as they were referred to at the time). More specifically, they weren’t a viable option for mass acceptance or a free market to support them. I’m confident the same premises held back then hold true today. Wish I could find that paper - it would be entertaining to read again.
 
The answer is apparently Amazon:


Note: be forewarned that demuro is more excited and annoying then usual in this video. Viewer discretion is advised.

I didn't even know that Amazon was an investor. What's the chances rivian morphs into a commercial vehicle manufacturer? Seems like Amazon could provide enough demand for delivery vans to keep the whole factory busy.

The sweet spot right now IMO is the PHEV. We just traded our 21 Pacifica phev for a 22. Thanks to all of you taxpayers by the way who pay for us to get a new car every year essentially for free. Anyway, the 33 mile battery range is enough to cover 85% of our driving, and the gas engine means range anxiety isn't a thing. I haven't done the math since we bought our first one in 18, but at that time (with MUCH cheaper gas), our electric bill went up about $100/ month, and our gasoline bill went down about $400.

No way I am ever getting on the electric fab unless they eventually ban every gas car on the road.
Make no mistake, that is the plan. Ev's are pretty good and keep getting better. Given time they probably would out compete gas cars, but I'm not convinced they aren't a net negative for the environment given the issues around battery manufacturing.

I'm also not convinced that the plan is to actually replace all the gas cars. I think the plan is that private cars become akin to private jets... for those that are "more equal". The rest of us will "own nothing and be happy."
 
Make no mistake, that is the plan. Ev's are pretty good and keep getting better. Given time they probably would out compete gas cars, but I'm not convinced they aren't a net negative for the environment given the issues around battery manufacturing.

I'm also not convinced that the plan is to actually replace all the gas cars. I think the plan is that private cars become akin to private jets... for those that are "more equal". The rest of us will "own nothing and be happy."
They will always be for the rich while your average joe is forever relegated to gas cars for price purposes. The current crop of cars will probably be bricked in 10 years as technology evolves. New plants have to be built to accommodate the new manufacturing processes causing further deforestation, increased strain on the power grid, and cars piling up in junk yards at record pace. They are cool for their tech and performance but they are still an impractical toy right now.
 
I'm also not convinced that the plan is to actually replace all the gas cars. I think the plan is that private cars become akin to private jets... for those that are "more equal". The rest of us will "own nothing and be happy."

Oh how I want to comment on this. While I wouldn’t get banned outright, I WOULD get my hand slapped and probably a time out for it.
 
I get a good chuckle every time I ride by and see people sitting in their cars waiting for them to charge.

Our average charge time at Superchargers on road trips is 15 to 30 minutes. After driving several hours, while charging we typically walk to a restaurant, convenience store or grocery and get a snack and use the facilities and walk the dog. More often than not, the car is ready to go before we are. On the occasion its not quite done, its a good chance to check email or Facebook or web forums or whatever for that final 10 minutes or so. Its simply not burdensome to us. If you think it would be to you, who am I to argue?

And again, that's only on road trips. At home we just start every day @ 80% charge, about 270 miles, and never ever worry about getting gas or oil changes or whatever. Its been quite a nice experience so far.
 
I'm not a truck guy, nor an SUV guy, never have been. I lived in North Texas for almost 10 years but didn't assimilated into truck culture. I see trucks and large SUVs as vehicles with unique capabilities that are essential for certain uses. That's all.

Also, someone needs to explain to me what vegan leather is because that sounds like Vinyl to me.
My first experience with, what is now called, vegan leather was our 2000 BMW 323i. They called it Leatherette. Everyone thought it was leather but it didn't wear like leather and was easier to keep clean. We kept the car for 20 years and it held up very well. The Vegan leather in my Tesla is even better as it has a even softer feel.

Sounds like the marina parking lot may be a good place for some Level 2 chargers in the near future.
Yes, it will. With a Level 2 charger, you'll be able to get a good amount of charge added while you spend a day on the lake.

The marina can set their own rates for the charging, so as to recover the cost of installation and earn income from them, and the availability of the chargers will attract EV owners to their marina. Charging providers, such as Blink and ChargePoint, already have programs for this type of installation.

I wouldn't be surprised to see EV boats and EV jetskis, etc. Reducing the noise of the vehicles should make a day on the lake more enjoyable and less fatiguing.

Great vid from Rich on the problems with road tripping in a non Tesla EV today.
The CCS network, particularly VW's Electrify America (EA), seems to be a real mess. They are replacing the problematic hardware which, hopefully, will improve the situation. Last I checked, there were 19 CCS DC Fast Charging providers in the US with EA being one of, if not the, largest. Tesla's Supercharger network demonstrates that a fast, reliable, simple-to-use network is possible. Until the CCS networks catch up, the Supercharger network is a huge Tesla advantage.

Are apartment complexes going to put in chargers for every resident?
Yes, but they won't have to have be anywhere near 100% coverage for another three or four decades. Apartments and condos are already installing charging to attract tenants, and the chargers can be a source of revenue for them. Renters with EVs will seek out the complexes that offer charging.

I would never recommend an EV for someone who can't charge at home and, now that I have one, I won't live somewhere that doesn't have charging.

Granted, I know that's rare, but even someone with two teenagers at home would have to put in four chargers.
Any electrical outlet can be used to charge an EV. Unless every car is being driven 50+ miles per day, you don't need Level 2 charging for every car.

Tesla just lowered the cost of their Wall Connector to $350 and it is rated for outdoor installation. One in the garage, and one outside, would probably be a common solution for many 3 or 4 EV homes. They can be positioned so that the cord from one can reach at least two parking spots. Multiple Tesla Wall Connectors can share a single circuit and will coordinate the charging of multiple cars on that same circuit.

Someone who drives an average number of miles per year would only need to charge about once or twice per week so there's lots of flexibility in when each car can be plugged in. I've never heard of anyone having a problem with people pulling into their driveway to use their chargers without permission. If you did, flip off the circuit breaker when you leave.

Today, battery production is the constraining factor in the number of EVs being built. It makes more sense to build 2-1/2 300mi EVs than one 750mi range truck that would still have ~400mi range when towing. That will come, but not yet. The current EV trucks are very good for towing over shorter distances with the exceptional torque the electric motors provide. They are very well fitted for business use as they will be less expensive over their lifetime for the business, can have built in power supplies for work on the job site, and you don't waste your employees paid time having them take the trucks to refuel.

One truck doesn't have to fit everyone's needs. No one gas or diesel truck does.

Tesla's semi has demonstrated a 500mi trip, fully loaded at 82,000 pounds, on one charge. It also does (near) 1 MWh charging at something over 900 kWh. When that faster charging filters down to consumer-sized trucks their utility on long trips, or longer towing distances, will meet the needs of more truck users. It doesn't all have to happen tomorrow.

Five year ago, I doubted that Tesla would survive. Today, Lucid and Rivian is in that make it or break it stage. They both have good products but face the challenges of scaling up to higher levels of production that will lead to profitability and sustainability. I do get about half of my Amazon deliveries now from the Rivian EVD. That contract will surely help.
 
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