Anyone buying a Rivian?

I’m not against EV’s, I’m against EV’s >> right now<<. 0-60 in 3 seconds in a full size pickup sounds like a blast to me. Just not for 90k+.
 
Someone explain this to me.

There is a reason why most pickup trucks have the engine bay up front. It is because they need an engine bay to house the engine. An electric pickup does not require a dedicated engine bay to house the electric motor(s.) Why is it still there? Looks? The Rivian is butt ugly anyway - you might as well make it more practical by using a front mounted cab, either shortening it or increasing the cargo box length.
 
Larry in TN said:
Five year ago, I doubted that Tesla would survive. Today, Lucid and Rivian is in that make it or break it stage. They both have good products but face the challenges of scaling up to higher levels of production that will lead to profitability and sustainability. I do get about half of my Amazon deliveries now from the Rivian EVD. That contract will surely help.
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Rivan I think has a good chance. They have Amazon as an investor, and Amazon announced a large panel van order. Based on the PR, the frame, drive train are shared with the regular Rivan trucks; so this is not an all new design. I think delivery is next year, but not positive.
Additionally, Rivan hired production and manufacturing specialists much earlier than other unicorns. I think this will help Rivan much earlier in the cycle than Tesla went through or Lucid is going now.

Tim
 
Sac Arrow said:
Someone explain this to me.

There is a reason why most pickup trucks have the engine bay up front. It is because they need an engine bay to house the engine. An electric pickup does not require a dedicated engine bay to house the electric motor(s.) Why is it still there? Looks? The Rivian is butt ugly anyway - you might as well make it more practical by using a front mounted cab, either shortening it or increasing the cargo box length.
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Ford actually commented on this. Potential customers rebelled at such a change. So Ford decided it should be a practical frunk instead.

Tim
 
And Rivian is hiring (stealing) good people from Caterpillar since it is just down the road. They have good talent behind what they're doing. Or maybe I'm biased. ;)
 
Sac Arrow said:
There is a reason why most pickup trucks have the engine bay up front. It is because they need an engine bay to house the engine. An electric pickup does not require a dedicated engine bay to house the electric motor(s.) Why is it still there?
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I think customer acceptance is one reason. The Tesla's Cybertruck design has a much more cab-forward design but it threw out almost all conventions in its radial design.

Practical reasons may include having room for a better crumple zone and storage.

EVs, being clean-sheet design, are doing exceptionally well in crash tests. Removing the constraints of the ICE drivetrain has given them the flexibility to design very crashworthy vehicles.

Storage is another benefit. Both the Rivian and F150 Lightning have sizeable, locked, front trunks which, I would think, are an excellent addition to the conventional pickup truck design.
 
JOhnH said:
People keep bringing up this same old argument and it keeps getting shot down with the same rebuttal. The great majority of people would only need to use one of those inconvenient and expensive chargers a couple of times a year. The rest of the time it gets fully charged every night for night time residential rates.

Yeah, for those that don't have residential chargers, perhaps they need to wait a few years for the technology to catch up to their needs. Personally, I'm going to buy an EV as soon as I need to trade in my gas truck. But it is already 9 years old and looks and runs like new, even though it has lived it's whole life in the corrosive state of Florida; on the coast no less, and it is a GM product. Maybe I'll break down and trade it in around 2030 regardless. By then I'll probably need the full self driving capability any way.
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There is no rebuttal to what Rich is taking about. It’s a real world experience. He’s not lying or exaggerating anything in that video.

But here’s the thing, he’s still gonna keep the truck regardless of the massive inconvenience of a road trip. Like me, the pros of EV ownership barely outweigh the cons. Unlike the annoying “Tesla fanboys” he has no problem highlighting those cons.

Plenty of Americans still road trip.
https://www.foxnews.com/travel/73-percent-americans-road-trip-fly
 
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Grum.Man said:
They installed some new Tesla charging stations in my little home town. I get a good chuckle every time I ride by and see people sitting in their cars waiting for them to charge. No way I am ever getting on the electric fab unless they eventually ban every gas car on the road. In 20 years we will finally start admitting how terrible of an idea electric cars were.
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I would not spend the equivalent value of a small house on an EV unless it could go a minimum or 1000 miles without recharging, or have the option to rapidly replace the battery pack at an EV "gas Station."

I don't see that happening any time soon.
 
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IK04 said:
I would not spent the equivalent value of a small house on an EV unless it could go a minimum or 1000 miles without recharging, or have the option to rapidly replace the battery pack at an EV "gas Station."

I don't see that happening any time soon.
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Oh, oh but what about the huge inconvenience of going to a gas station for a whopping 2 minutes and dealing with that nasty gasoline. :rolleyes: I always laugh when I hear that argument. The amount of times I have to plug in my Model S from daily driving far exceeds the time of going to a gas station. Not to mention the unsightly scene of a charger being plugged in all the time.

Of course I can’t charge right now because my charger port just failed (common) to open today on my Model S. Never heard of a gasoline car having its gas door failing to open.
 
Velocity173 said:
There is no rebuttal to what Rich is taking about. It’s a real world experience. He’s not lying or exaggerating anything in that video.
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Of course there is a rebuttal. His example is just not a big deal.

I agree that he was not lying or exaggerating, but the point is that it is such a rare occurrence that it doesn't even register on the real list of cons. It's not like people are surprised that they will have to find a way to charge their EVs. Most people charge at home. If you can't do that then you think really really hard before you buy one about whether using chargers away from home will work for you. If you are unaware of that and buy an EV anyway, then you probably have much bigger problems in your life.
 
Velocity173 said:
Oh, oh but what about the huge inconvenience of going to a gas station for a whopping 2 minutes and dealing with that nasty gasoline. :rolleyes:
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Here is my frame of reference: I typically travel for work to a location that is about 900 miles away. I can make that drive in under 11 hours if I only make one, five minute stop. My Diesel fueled car can almost make the trip unrefueled.

What would be my end-to-end time in an EV if I could only go 250-300 miles per charge and each charge takes 30-60 minutes? More.
 
IK04 said:
I typically travel for work to a location that is about 900 miles away.
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That usage pattern is not typical of most drivers in the US. There is no one vehicle, or type of vehicle, that works for everyone. If you do that trip regularly, an EV is probably not the best choice today.

What would be my end-to-end time in an EV if I could only go 250-300 miles per charge and each charge takes 30-60 minutes? More.
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Run your trip of www.aBetterRoutePlanner.com (ABRP). You can run it with a variety of different EVs to see how they compare.

30-60 minute charging stops are not typical, at least not with a relatively efficient sedan. Most stops will be in the 12 to 30 minute range. Driving to near-empty, and charging to near-full, is not a time-efficient method of road tripping an EV. ABRP will plot a more efficient charging plan.
 
IK04 said:
Here is my frame of reference: I typically travel for work to a location that is about 900 miles away. I can make that drive in under 11 hours if I only make one, five minute stop. My Diesel fueled car can almost make the trip unrefueled.

What would be my end-to-end time in an EV if I could only go 250-300 miles per charge and each charge takes 30-60 minutes? More.
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Yep. An EV will never be practical for that commute.

There’s a good documentary out called “Who killed the Electric Car?” One of the popular fallacies is that the old EV1 didn’t meet the requirements of all Americans. They’re right, it met the requirements of 90 % of Americans. That’s a misleading statement though. What they’re referring to is the majority of Americans commute less than 40 miles to work. A typical EV and even the old EV1 can easily do that. But, the majority of Americans (unless you are a recluse), take road trips. Rich highlights the real inconvenience in taking a road trip with an EV. You can hear the frustration in his voice. And contrary to what anyone says, his experience is reality. You can see many other vids (out of spec reviews) that document this problem.

Heck, forget 1.5-2hrs charge times. Even if it were only 30 minutes, I don’t want to walk around in a shady part of the US, looking for a restaurant while my car charges. For what? An outrageously expensive vehicle that has a quick acceleration? Barely worth it.
 
My current situation.

 
FastEddieB said:
Our average charge time at Superchargers on road trips is 15 to 30 minutes. After driving several hours, while charging we typically walk to a restaurant, convenience store or grocery and get a snack and use the facilities and walk the dog. More often than not, the car is ready to go before we are. On the occasion its not quite done, its a good chance to check email or Facebook or web forums or whatever for that final 10 minutes or so. Its simply not burdensome to us. If you think it would be to you, who am I to argue?

And again, that's only on road trips. At home we just start every day @ 80% charge, about 270 miles, and never ever worry about getting gas or oil changes or whatever. Its been quite a nice experience so far.
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Just out of curiosity does very cold weather affect the performance of batteries in EV's. I wonder if the range might be reduced on a frigid day. :dunno:
 
Archer Jack said:
Just out of curiosity does very cold weather affect the performance of batteries in EV's. I wonder if the range might be reduced on a frigid day. :dunno:
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Short answer is yes. Most EV's have heated & cooled battery packs to keep the cells at the optimum temperature. Of course, warming them up takes a decent amount of power. Also, cabin heat is a large draw, and the air is thicker which consumes more power. Our van loses about 10% of its electric range when it gets really cold in the winter; but it's a small pack to begin with, I assume full EV's take less of a hit. One cool thing ours will do is that you can program a time for it to "pre-condition" itself, and it will preheat the battery pack and cabin while it's plugged in to the charger. That eliminates most of the cold weather range penalty.
 
Archer Jack said:
Just out of curiosity does very cold weather affect the performance of batteries in EV's. I wonder if the range might be reduced on a frigid day. :dunno:
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Big time. My Model S is about a 30 percent reduction in winter vs ideal (70 degrees ish). Of course you’d be hard pressed to find an EV that makes published rated range even under ideal conditions. But, same goes for most ICE MPG claims as well.

https://bestride.com/news/aaa-study...ge-in-cold-weather-nissans-leaf-performs-best
 
I really hope EVs eventually get more affordable, the infrastructure is built out further, and the battery technology improves. I like cars and I find the alternative means of powering them interesting from an enthusiast point of view. However, for me that's what these things are right now. They're enthusiasts cars/trucks that are too expensive and come with too many limitations to be practical for me.

At some point in the next couple of years I'd like to trade my F-150 5.0l in before the rust starts to really eat the resale value. Probably going to be looking at an F-250 with the 7.3l gas engine. At nearly double the price and with the towing range limitations, none of these electric offerings are even going to be on the radar.
 
Archer Jack said:
Just out of curiosity does very cold weather affect the performance of batteries in EV's. I wonder if the range might be reduced on a frigid day. :dunno:
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Yes. How much, depends on the car. The newer EVs use a heat pump, instead of heating coils, to provide heat in cold temperatures and are most efficient. The cars with the newer battery management systems also do better.
 
tspear said:
Rivan I think has a good chance. They have Amazon as an investor, and Amazon announced a large panel van order. Based on the PR, the frame, drive train are shared with the regular Rivan trucks; so this is not an all new design. I think delivery is next year, but not positive.
Additionally, Rivan hired production and manufacturing specialists much earlier than other unicorns. I think this will help Rivan much earlier in the cycle than Tesla went through or Lucid is going now.

Tim
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Do you really think Rivian is going to make it? How long do you think they can keep losing this kind of money and burning cash at a high rate?

https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/12/23505427/rivian-mercedes-benz-electric-van-ev-plans-hold-paused
 
Archer Jack said:
Just out of curiosity does very cold weather affect the performance of batteries in EV's. I wonder if the range might be reduced on a frigid day. :dunno:
Click to expand...
The browser spy machine is working overtime time. This article showed up in my feed shortly after posting my last reply to your question.

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/12/15...se-models-do-the-best-in-frigid-temperatures/

The article summarized a study of over 10,000 EVs comparing freezing (20°-30°F) range and 70°F range by EV model. Results ranged from a loss of 30% (Ford Mustang Mach-E & VW ID.4) to a loss of 15% (Tesla Model X & Y).

Several cars did even better on an estimated range calculation reaching as low as 3% (Jaguar I-Pace). I didn't read the linked study to get a better description of the difference between the estimated and verified winter range calculations.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Someone explain this to me.

There is a reason why most pickup trucks have the engine bay up front. It is because they need an engine bay to house the engine. An electric pickup does not require a dedicated engine bay to house the electric motor(s.) Why is it still there? Looks? The Rivian is butt ugly anyway - you might as well make it more practical by using a front mounted cab, either shortening it or increasing the cargo box length.
Click to expand...

The Forward Cab idea was tried a long time ago - and never caught on. See this: https://www.hagerty.com/media/entertainment/forward-control-trucks-of-the-1960s-ranked/
In reality it is the same vehicle as a van - but with an open bed. I have owned several vans -and liked them a lot. Pickups, not so much (had a couple of those as well).

I suppose that there is something to be said for a "crush zone" between you and the object you are about to collide with. Otherwise, the conventional layout is what the buying public expects a truck to be.

Dave
 
strangebird said:
Do you really think Rivian is going to make it? How long do you think they can keep losing this kind of money and burning cash at a high rate?

https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/12/23505427/rivian-mercedes-benz-electric-van-ev-plans-hold-paused
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Sure: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rivi...ZhuEoaSo8CSqAsES201mdn0k39HYtdFxV0WxJwZIa_90H

You see Rivan has enough cash on hand to run 2 years without revenue. When you look at the numbers by quarter, the losses are declining. I would say they have a good shot at it.

Tim
 
One thing in Rich’s vid I found interesting was his friends comment on how his Rivian is nothing more than an over priced Hyundai Santa Cruz or a Honda Ridgline. Obviously he’s joking but if Hyundai or Honda came out with electric versions, that’s something I could get behind. I’m not a truck guy but a smaller version that lists for say $50K, I’d be interested in. $100K and the size of a Rivian is well outside my needs…and budget.
 
GM has a lot of affordably priced EV's on the way. Whether that holds true or they end up like the F150 and Rivian's with massive price increases is yet to be seen. I can see the appeal of an electric car or suv IF it were the same price or cheaper than a gas one. Electric trucks just seem idiotic and too compromised. If the limited range of the current products suits your needs and you don't actually need a truck to tow then just buy a gas one. You aren't going to spend that much in gas and the price difference will never be paid back before the vehicle gets junked like a 5 year old iphone.
 
SkyChaser said:
How about those who have multiple drivers? When all my siblings and I lived with my parents before our great diaspora began, my parents had seven cars that parked at their house, and five out of seven of those cars were daily commuters.
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How many of those cars had to go to the filling station every day?

I don't know when you grew up, but we too had 6 or 7 cars parked at the house for a few years. But at the time, gas was around $0.29/gallon so no EV would have been worth it anyway. And back then, we were worried about global cooling and the coming ice age, and if we knew that greenhouse gasses warmed the planet, we would have invested even more in fossil fuels.
 
My parents have a Rivian. It's certainly the nicest vehicle I've ever driven, both in handling, power and interior quality. I'd own one long before I would ever buy a Tesla.
 
JOhnH said:
How many of those cars had to go to the filling station every day?

I don't know when you grew up, but we too had 6 or 7 cars parked at the house for a few years. But at the time, gas was around $0.29/gallon so no EV would have been worth it anyway. And back then, we were worried about global cooling and the coming ice age, and if we knew that greenhouse gasses warmed the planet, we would have invested even more in fossil fuels.
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5 of them drove between 50-70 miles a day. Obviously, they didn't need to go the gas station every day, but if the 50 miles you quoted earlier as the upper end of when they'd need to be charged overnight is true, then all of them.
 
Grum.Man said:
They will always be for the rich while your average joe is forever relegated to gas cars for price purposes. The current crop of cars will probably be bricked in 10 years as technology evolves. New plants have to be built to accommodate the new manufacturing processes causing further deforestation, increased strain on the power grid, and cars piling up in junk yards at record pace. They are cool for their tech and performance but they are still an impractical toy right now.
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Just the excavation for this factory was stated to be 25 million yards on more than one news article. One of those twin engine Cat scrapers holds ~22 yards. Roughly, just say the scraper burns 25 gallons an hour and has a 5 minute cycle time for every 22 yards. That's one heck of a lot of diesel.

https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/toyota-battery-plant-under-construction-north-carolina
 
Mtns2Skies said:
My parents have a Rivian. It's certainly the nicest vehicle I've ever driven, both in handling, power and interior quality. I'd own one long before I would ever buy a Tesla.
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and no youtube channel? rookie! sheesh.
 
And that doesn't even include the specialty materials like lithium that have yet to be able to mined in an environmentally-friendly way.
 
I've posted this before and I'll post it again. Volvo did a holistic environmental analysis of electric vehicles across similar models. It's a long payback - but it does payback.
https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/...Com/PDF/C40/Volvo-C40-Recharge-LCA-report.pdf
Frankly I think EV's have passed the point of only being for hippies. People are now buying them because in some use cases, they are superior vehicles. Environment be damned. There's no doubt that there's enough market momentum behind it at this point. All manufacturers are pouring unbelievable amounts of money into EV development, to think it is not the future at this point is willfully naive.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I've posted this before and I'll post it again. Volvo did a holistic environmental analysis of electric vehicles across similar models. It's a long payback - but it does payback.
https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/...Com/PDF/C40/Volvo-C40-Recharge-LCA-report.pdf
Frankly I think EV's have passed the point of only being for hippies. People are now buying them because in some use cases, they are superior vehicles. Environment be damned. There's no doubt that there's enough market momentum behind it at this point. All manufacturers are pouring unbelievable amounts of money into EV development, to think it is not the future at this point is willfully naive.
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Well if EVs are forced down our throats then sure, it’s the future. Based on administration policies, that’s where we’re headed. The question is, will it matter in the long run?

I don’t know of anyone that doesn’t already know the LCA Co2 emissions of an EV is less than ICE. But, like I said, will it matter? Meaning, while transportation makes up the greatest percentage of Co2 emissions, vehicles are only one part of the picture. Also, Co2 emissions from vehicles are only a piece of the pie of what really matters and that’s total greenhouse gas emissions. Total greenhouse gas emissions are still expected to increase for several decades under current policies. Even best case scenario, using pledges that countries that are part of the Paris Accord, emissions will increase before gradually falling off. But, the important thing is, we’ll still be above (2.5C) the 1.5C global warming temp that climate scientists have as a cutoff.

Also, I tend to believe that most of these goals (US 2030 emissions) won’t be attainable just from a power grid perspective. As stated before, a recent study was done that showed best case our current grid could handle is 20 % EVs on the road. Even that is using smart (night) charging. Right now California has only 5 % and they have grid problems just handling that. Just my Model S used 515 KWHs last month. My parent’s house used 600 KWHs for the whole month. Now imagine adding almost an entire small home of power use to an existing home.

Now I’m not saying screw it, let’s have a Co2 free for all but I do wonder if we’ve already gone past the point of no return. Unfortunately, the drastic measures that climate scientists say we’re supposed to take, aren’t realistic and our economy would suffer as a result.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Well if EVs are forced down our throats then sure, it’s the future. Based on administration policies, that’s where we’re headed. The question is, will it matter in the long run?

I don’t know of anyone that doesn’t already know the LCA Co2 emissions of an EV is less than ICE. But, like I said, will it matter? Meaning, while transportation makes up the greatest percentage of Co2 emissions, vehicles are only one part of the picture. Also, Co2 emissions from vehicles are only a piece of the pie of what really matters and that’s total greenhouse gas emissions. Total greenhouse gas emissions are still expected to increase for several decades under current policies. Even best case scenario, using pledges that countries that are part of the Paris Accord, emissions will increase before gradually falling off. But, the important thing is, we’ll still be above (2.5-2.8C) the 1.5C global warming temp that climate scientists have as a cutoff.

Also, I tend to believe that most of these goals (US 2030 emissions) won’t be attainable just from a power grid perspective. As stated before, a recent study was done that showed best case our current grid could handle is 20 % EVs on the road. Even that is using smart (night) charging. Right now California has only 5 % and they have grid problems just handling that. Just my Model S used 515 KWHs last month. My parent’s house used 600 KWHs for the whole month. Now imagine adding almost an entire small home of power use to an existing home.

Now I’m not saying screw it, let’s have a Co2 free for all but I do wonder if we’ve already gone past the point of no return. Unfortunately, the drastic measures that climate scientists say we’re supposed to take, aren’t realistic and our economy would suffer as a result.
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Grids can (and will) be updated. That's really a nothingburger all things considered. Climate change (i.e, more natural disasters) is also expensive.

I agree overall though. ICE vehicles (in the USA) have become *insanely* efficient in the last couple decades and very low on emissions overall. Meanwhile other developing countries do not track their carbon output and are far higher contributors in many aspects, and really there's not much we can do about it. Look at slash-n-burn in the Amazon, those people are between a rock and a hard place and that's all they can do to survive - but it destroys the planet.

There's no easy answer, and I'm not suggesting that there is one. But at this point market forces are strong enough in favor of EV's that even without government subsidies it'll take over. They've really reached critical mass to continue on their own volition.

Innovate or die.
 
bnt83 said:
Just the excavation for this factory was stated to be 25 million yards on more than one news article. One of those twin engine Cat scrapers holds ~22 yards. Roughly, just say the scraper burns 25 gallons an hour and has a 5 minute cycle time for every 22 yards. That's one heck of a lot of diesel.

https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/toyota-battery-plant-under-construction-north-carolina
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If they are running 631s it is 34 cubic yards per load. My calc came to 26 gallons an hour but that would be at constant 100% load. I like your estimating. And I like the brand you picked.
 
Larry in TN said:
That usage pattern is not typical of most drivers in the US. There is no one vehicle, or type of vehicle, that works for everyone.
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Sure there is. I have three of them now. I drive one, my wife drives one, one is loaned out to my daughter. They're so practical that they meet 100.0% of our transportation requirements, long or short haul. I can drive any of them to the grocery store or on a week long road cross country trip into the wilderness, whatever. Typical or atypical, they do the job in any weather, anywhere, any time.
 
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