Allegiant Captain Fired For Evacuation

Mason

Mason

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"Allegiant Airlines Capt. Jason Kinzer was feeling tense.It was June 8. With the smell of acrid smoke filling his cabin, he’d just made an emergency landing at Florida's St. Pete-Clearwater International Airport, where ground fire crews had informed him that his No. 1 engine was smoking. Despite cutting power to the engine, the smell hadn’t dissipated, Kinzer said, and he was worried about his 141 passengers..."
 
Mason said:
LINK.

"Allegiant Airlines Capt. Jason Kinzer was feeling tense.It was June 8. With the smell of acrid smoke filling his cabin, he’d just made an emergency landing at Florida's St. Pete-Clearwater International Airport, where ground fire crews had informed him that his No. 1 engine was smoking. Despite cutting power to the engine, the smell hadn’t dissipated, Kinzer said, and he was worried about his 141 passengers..."
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One of the execs that fired Jason was flying the airplane that had the fuel emergency and had to land during the TFR at Fargo. Completely jacked management.
 
Another second rate start up airline,that only cares about the bottom line.
 
I think they are trying for the Frank Lorenzo airline management of the year award.
 
When he wins, I strongly suggest he take the lump sum payout offered. I wouldn't trust any kind of structured payment deal from them. Doubt they'll be around long enough.
 
Just call JG Wentworth.
 
It's a fairly bipolar airline, with their Airbus ops juxtaposed to the MD-80s. The MD-80s are the squeaky wheel, and people are going to die on a G4 MD-80, mark my words. This is ValueJet all over again. Then they'll circle the wagons and siphon the cash, shutter the company and the pilot group gets tossed out again to go beg for a job at Spirit, Blue, Virgin et al. Rinse, repeat. That is the opportunity cost of taking a job at Allegiant.

As to the pilot in question, I sure hope he can get hired somewhere decent. I have no idea what his career pedigree is, but from what I gather, suing an airline is the kiss of death when it comes to employability. That is a shame, I thought we were past the labor times where whistleblowers were crucified. As professional pilots, we're all complicit in that outcome because the major players have enough qualified candidates beating down the door that sidelining an individual pilot that got a raw deal doesn't affect their bottom line. A show of solidarity for the pilot in question by the G6 pilot group would have been in order, yet I haven't read anything to the effect of that group raising hell to back this guy up.

If the incident and outcome (i.e. termination as retribution for embarrassing G6/highlighting their mx shortcuts) indeed went down as stated in the lawsuit, personally I think it would make a hell of statement to hire this guy at a quality outfit to demonstrate we are actually serious about safety, which would be positive PR for the gaining airline.
 
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hindsight2020 said:
It's a fairly bipolar airline, with their Airbus ops juxtaposed to the MD-80s. The MD-80s are the squeaky wheel, and people are going to die on a G6 MD-80, mark my words. This is ValueJet all over again. Then they'll circle the wagons and siphon the cash, shutter the company and the pilot group gets tossed out again to go beg for a job at Spirit, Blue, Virgin et al. Rinse, repeat. That is the opportunity cost of taking a job at Allegiant.

As to the pilot in question, I sure hope he can get hired somewhere decent. I have no idea what his career pedigree is, but from what I gather, suing an airline is the kiss of death when it comes to employability. That is a shame, I thought we were past the labor times where whistleblowers were crucified. As professional pilots, we're all complicit in that outcome because the major players have enough qualified candidates beating down the door that sidelining an individual pilot that got a raw deal doesn't affect their bottom line. A show of solidarity for the pilot in question by the G6 pilot group would have been in order, yet I haven't read anything to the effect of that group raising hell to back this guy up.

If the incident and outcome (i.e. termination as retribution for embarrassing G6/highlighting their mx shortcuts) indeed went down as stated in the lawsuit, personally I think it would make a hell of statement to hire this guy at a quality outfit to demonstrate we are actually serious about safety, which would be positive PR for the gaining airline.
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Keep in mind, Allegiant pilots are represented by Teamsters, not the usual pilot labor groups.
 
Even if the pilot made the "wrong" decision in that there was really no immediate life and death emergency that truly warranted the evacuation, I still support his decision to evacuate based upon the information he had at the time. Sometimes things appear much worse than they truly are. Sometimes things are actually worse than they seem. Erring on the side of caution should not be something a pilot is punished for especially when it comes to the safety of the passengers. I'd much rather have a pilot evacuate when he didn't need to than to not evacuate when he should have. This case could cause future pilots to second guess their decision and result in loss of life. Not a good thing.
 
The Capt was talking to ground and some one unidentified was telling him on the CG freq not to evacuate, we have seen airplanes burn quickly, the Capt did his job in my estimation,.

I think the Allegiant management was making this Capt. a scapegoat as there was a lot of labor issues at the time and a few more emergency landings that had happened.

Transcript from the lawsuit

Here's an excerpt from the radio transcription detailed in Exhibit 1. The "Unknown" voice seems to be RF2 but not identified as such.

2042:03 864 Yes right here we're going to be evacuating
2042:05 RF 864 roger
2042:07 Unknown 864 hold off on your evacuation please
2042:13 864 Who said to hold off
2042:15 Unknown Yes please hold off on your evacuation
2042:16 864 Yes who is this
2042:22 GC Be advised when you guys are making transmissions identify yourself first so everybody knows who's talking to who
2042:29 864 Yeah Allegiant 864 who's telling us not to evacuate
2042:34 Unknown Airport Command RF 2 I'm telling you not to evacuate yet
2042:37 864 All right
2043:01 864 Allegiant 864 why do you want us to hold
2043:17 864 We need answer please why do you want us to hold on the evacuation
2043:27 GC RF 2 Command safety ground did you copy Allegiant's transmission
2043:36 GC Ops 1 are you on St. Pete ground
2043:44 GC Okay are there any emergency vehicles any of the RF vehicles on ground frequency
2043:51 RF3 Affirmative RF 3 on
2043:53 GC Okay RF 3 on Allegiant 864 is requesting why do you want them to hold on the evacuation they need an answer please
2044:04 RF RF 3 give me one second I'll contact the man on the ground
 
NO one outside any aircraft should be able to a PIC to cancel an evacuation.
If there is a life threatening reason that makes one think it is a bad idea, that information should be given to the PIC, and not a 'delay or abort your evacuation'.
 
strangebird said:
The Capt was talking to ground and some one unidentified was telling him on the CG freq not to evacuate, we have seen airplanes burn quickly, the Capt did his job in my estimation,.

I think the Allegiant management was making this Capt. a scapegoat as there was a lot of labor issues at the time and a few more emergency landings that had happened.

Transcript from the lawsuit

Here's an excerpt from the radio transcription detailed in Exhibit 1. The "Unknown" voice seems to be RF2 but not identified as such.

2042:03 864 Yes right here we're going to be evacuating
2042:05 RF 864 roger
2042:07 Unknown 864 hold off on your evacuation please
2042:13 864 Who said to hold off
2042:15 Unknown Yes please hold off on your evacuation
2042:16 864 Yes who is this
2042:22 GC Be advised when you guys are making transmissions identify yourself first so everybody knows who's talking to who
2042:29 864 Yeah Allegiant 864 who's telling us not to evacuate
2042:34 Unknown Airport Command RF 2 I'm telling you not to evacuate yet
2042:37 864 All right
2043:01 864 Allegiant 864 why do you want us to hold
2043:17 864 We need answer please why do you want us to hold on the evacuation
2043:27 GC RF 2 Command safety ground did you copy Allegiant's transmission
2043:36 GC Ops 1 are you on St. Pete ground
2043:44 GC Okay are there any emergency vehicles any of the RF vehicles on ground frequency
2043:51 RF3 Affirmative RF 3 on
2043:53 GC Okay RF 3 on Allegiant 864 is requesting why do you want them to hold on the evacuation they need an answer please
2044:04 RF RF 3 give me one second I'll contact the man on the ground
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Geez....

The PIC is responsible for the safety of the flight... PERIOD...

Considering this exchange took over 2 minutes, I can see his frustration..:mad2:
 
Fearless Tower said:
One of the execs that fired Jason was flying the airplane that had the fuel emergency and had to land during the TFR at Fargo. Completely jacked management.
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Read this" The violated a Notam that the Fargo airport upon arrival was closed at Fargo for the Blue Angels practice, and were told to go else where by ATC then declared a fuel emergency so they could land.

Two Allegiant Air executives, the vice president of operations and the director of flight safety, were at the controls of the flight that made an emergency landing last week because it was nearly out of fuel.

Greg Baden, Allegiant's vice president of operations, and Michael Wuerger, director of flight safety, government affairs and quality assurance, were flying Allegiant's Flight 426 from McCarran International Airport to the Fargo, N.D., Hector International Airport on July 23.

A representative of Allegiant confirmed that Baden and Wuerger were flying the plane, adding it is not uncommon for members of operations management to take flights to maintain their pilot status.


Allegiant Air execs at controls of flight that landed with low fuel | Las Vegas Review-Journal (http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/allegiant-air-execs-controls-flight-landed-low-fuel)

But, the good news is that V-P of Ops Captain Baden was found to have 'exercised sound judgment' after he investigated his own incident

An in-house investigation of the emergency landing of Allegiant Air Flight 426 in Fargo, N.D., last week has found that the flight crew operated within the bounds of all regulations and "our captain exercised sound judgment in the operation of his aircraft," the airline said Thursday.

Allegiant investigation: Captain exercised sound judgment | Las Vegas Review-Journal (http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/allegiant-investigation-captain-exercised-sound-judgment)
 
Allegiant actually harbors a few ex Valuejet management who have "puppet" positions since they are banned from being on a certificate for life.

This is a garbage can airline , they are unfit for a 121 certificate.
They have a breathtakingly high engine fire/failure rate. I could go on and on...This airline betrays the public trust and deserves no paying passengers.

Moreover there are plenty of Continental and a few Eastern Scabs on the dark side at this airline. That right there should tell you everything.
 
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taters said:
This is a garbage can airline , they are unfit for a 121 certificate. They have a breathtakingly high engine fire/failure rate. I could go on and on...This airline betrays the public trust and deserves no paying passengers.
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I flew them once on a round trip, never again.
 
strangebird said:
Read this" The violated a Notam that the Fargo airport upon arrival was closed at Fargo for the Blue Angels practice, and were told to go else where by ATC then declared a fuel emergency so they could land.

Two Allegiant Air executives, the vice president of operations and the director of flight safety, were at the controls of the flight that made an emergency landing last week because it was nearly out of fuel.

Greg Baden, Allegiant's vice president of operations, and Michael Wuerger, director of flight safety, government affairs and quality assurance, were flying Allegiant's Flight 426 from McCarran International Airport to the Fargo, N.D., Hector International Airport on July 23.

A representative of Allegiant confirmed that Baden and Wuerger were flying the plane, adding it is not uncommon for members of operations management to take flights to maintain their pilot status.


Allegiant Air execs at controls of flight that landed with low fuel | Las Vegas Review-Journal (http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/allegiant-air-execs-controls-flight-landed-low-fuel)

But, the good news is that V-P of Ops Captain Baden was found to have 'exercised sound judgment' after he investigated his own incident

An in-house investigation of the emergency landing of Allegiant Air Flight 426 in Fargo, N.D., last week has found that the flight crew operated within the bounds of all regulations and "our captain exercised sound judgment in the operation of his aircraft," the airline said Thursday.

Allegiant investigation: Captain exercised sound judgment | Las Vegas Review-Journal (http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/allegiant-investigation-captain-exercised-sound-judgment)
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Ha Ha.....:lol::lol:..

No conflict of interest there...:no::no:.........:(
 
Bill Jennings said:
I flew them once on a round trip, never again.
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I fly on Allegiant all the time great airline, other major airlines could learn something on the way their people treat customers. Their planes are clean and they have always been on time for me.
 
brien23 said:
I fly on Allegiant all the time great airline, other major airlines could learn something on the way their people treat customers. Their planes are clean and they have always been on time for me.
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????

Ok, maybe your experience was much better. I didn't like the fact that the interior of the plane is just totally worn out, with plastic trim bits broken and falling out, etc. Ok, maybe that says they're spending the money where it counts and not on visible stuff, but it makes me wonder.

And maybe it's fine, but the way they seem to fly the planes is annoying. The ones I flew on they chopped the throttle to idle at altitude and seemed to never touch it again. Those planes hit the runway with the most mighty wallop I've ever experienced. I guess not touching the throttles saves gas and money. Whatever, it's just not for me.
 
brien23 said:
I fly on Allegiant all the time great airline, other major airlines could learn something on the way their people treat customers. Their planes are clean and they have always been on time for me.
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Not sure if you are playing devil's advocate or just trying to be a contrarian for sake of discussion, but you are the ONLY person I have ever heard praise Allegiant for any reason OTHER than dirt cheap airfare.

Most folks put up with their crap simply because they don't want to pay more.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not sure if you are playing devil's advocate or just trying to be a contrarian for sake of discussion, but you are the ONLY person I have ever heard praise Allegiant for any reason OTHER than dirt cheap airfare.

Most folks put up with their crap simply because they don't want to pay more.
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This^

Cheers
 
Henning said:
Yeah, he will, he won't work for an airline again, but if he has a good lawyer, he won't need to.
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I agree that he will most likely win his suit but I disagree that he will not work for another airline. Most airlines are composed of safety conscious and ethical professionals who would agree with this pilot's decision. He would be a good hire in my opinion. The question is, will he want to fly for another airline?
 
taters said:
Allegiant actually harbors a few ex Valuejet management who have "puppet" positions since they are banned from being on a certificate for life.

This is a garbage can airline , they are unfit for a 121 certificate.
They have a breathtakingly high engine fire/failure rate. I could go on and on...This airline betrays the public trust and deserves no paying passengers.

Moreover there are plenty of Continental and a few Eastern Scabs on the dark side at this airline. That right there should tell you everything.
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OMG!! They hire scabs!! :yikes:

Seriously? You think the fact that they hire people who do not play the union game means anything when it comes to safety, ethics, etc?
 
Bill Jennings said:
And maybe it's fine, but the way they seem to fly the planes is annoying. The ones I flew on they chopped the throttle to idle at altitude and seemed to never touch it again. Those planes hit the runway with the most mighty wallop I've ever experienced. I guess not touching the throttles saves gas and money. Whatever, it's just not for me.
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I have a few good buddies at Allegiant. As an airline they don't do anything differently with regard to how they fly their airplanes than anyone else. You'll get different techniques that vary from pilot to pilot of course. As far as landings, you have two data points. I just had a landing the other day that was firmer than I would have liked. I'm sure I'll have plenty more. I try not to draw any conclusions from that. :)
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not sure if you are playing devil's advocate or just trying to be a contrarian for sake of discussion, but you are the ONLY person I have ever heard praise Allegiant for any reason OTHER than dirt cheap airfare.

Most folks put up with their crap simply because they don't want to pay more.
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Allegiant BLI to LAS I have always had good service. I also go with Alaska out of BLI another great Airline. Might be just a small town airport but they treat me right.:)
 
Fearless Tower said:
Keep in mind, Allegiant pilots are represented by Teamsters, not the usual pilot labor groups.
Click to expand...

Actually, Teamsters are rapidly becoming a large union force in the airline industry especially with the smaller (commuter) carriers. Even the larger airlines have often parted company with ALPA. American and Southwest have their own unions. Delta is flirting with breaking away as well.
 
Might also be that people on the flight from BLI to LAS are looking forward to a good time in Las Vegas, party Bus and that might carry over on the flight. Whatever I have always had a good flight with them.
 
SkyDog58 said:
OMG!! They hire scabs!! :yikes:

Seriously? You think the fact that they hire people who do not play the union game means anything when it comes to safety, ethics, etc?
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Yes it does,
Scabs are not even close to ethical..give me a break. Some of the worst apples in this business are scabs who are happy to step on their pilot brethren to benefit no one but themselves. These are the types that will happily break what-ever rule to please Mgmt out on the line. , and when they get in Mgmt....they again will cut every corner they possibly can for the certificate. G4 is shamefully run. The President actually argued to the FAA that they are a "travel company" and not an airline and shouldn't be held to the same standards.

Addendum: Most scabs are rightfully treated like the total **** they are online so thats why they usually settle into MGMT.
 
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How dare people look out for their own benefit. Just -- how dare they! Don't they know the giant collective is far more important than their miserable individual goals and desires? Imagine, taking initiative to get ahead. Get back in line! Don't make waves! Obey the masters! Toe the line! Listen to management! Pay your dues!

lolz
 
docmirror said:
. Get back in line! Don't make waves! Obey the masters! Toe the line! Listen to management! Pay your dues! lolz
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your not even kind of close here.

Flying the Line is a book I highly recommend if you would like to actually know how this works and has failed in the past.

Unions are one thing, Airline unions are a whole nother animal and are unfortunately a very necessary part of the mix.
 
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taters said:
your not even kind of close here.

Flying the Line is a book I highly recommend if you would like to actually know how this works and has failed in the past.
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I really wouldn't. I'm sure that YOUR union is different than all other unions. It's the exception. It's special. It's unique. It's better, and benign, and anyone not adhering to the pilot union is a horrible plane driver and should be banished to coach middle seat. :D
 
docmirror said:
I really wouldn't. I'm sure that YOUR union is different than all other unions. It's the exception. It's special. It's unique. It's better, and benign, and anyone not adhering to the pilot union is a horrible plane driver and should be banished to coach middle seat. :D
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Actually its the same one that's been discussed here and really the only ones that work effectively are the ones run by the pilots themselves.
Airline Unions started when air-mail planes started hitting trains flying in the fog....They actually have added a tremendous amount of safety to this profession and mode of transportation.

I hear Eastern is hiring why don't you go ahead an apply
 
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taters said:
Yes it does,
Scabs are not even close to ethical..give me a break. Some of the worst apples in this business are scabs who are happy to step on their pilot brethren to benefit no one but themselves. These are the types that will happily break what-ever rule to please Mgmt out on the line. , and when they get in Mgmt....they again will cut every corner they possibly can for the certificate. G4 is shamefully run. The President actually argued to the FAA that they are a "travel company" and not an airline and shouldn't be held to the same standards.

Addendum: Most scabs are rightfully treated like the total **** they are online so thats why they usually settle into MGMT.
Click to expand...

Well, I must disagree. While I am not pro-union, I am not stringently anti-union either. I just believe that if someone chooses to work and draw a paycheck rather than walk or honor a picket line that is their right and using a pejorative name such as scab to describe them is unfair. And the fact that they choose to not honor the picket line is no reflection on their ethics or their tendency to break any rules other than those of the union mentality. Now, if you read my earlier comments on this thread, you will see that I come down squarely on the side of the pilot in this incident and not management. You see, I judge people and situations on a case by case basis and not on a labor vs. management one. Too bad that more people don’t do the same. The us versus them mentality is a diseased one and is all too pervasive in our society.
 
Seems to me like this would be an appropriate topic for the Spin Zone...just saying...
 
I'm not a hard core union guy, but if there's any reason for an airline union, Allegiant is it. I've followed that situation closely, and it's amazing what the company tries to get away with.

My union gives me the benefit of being able to make decisions in the interest of my crew and passengers without (much) worry. That's the biggie - in the heat of the moment I'm interested in making the right decision at the time it needs to be made and don't want to be distracted by whether it'll be looked upon favorably in the eyes of the company. People that don't do this job day in and day out don't realize how often those two things are completely at odds.

Anyway, regardless of my opinion of unions overall, I definitely benefit from operating under one, and that's where I consider it an ethical choice to not step on the backs of my coworkers. Everyone knows the score when they decide to work for a 121 carrier in the US. If the idea of standing together bothers you so much, go fly corporate or overseas.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not sure if you are playing devil's advocate or just trying to be a contrarian for sake of discussion, but you are the ONLY person I have ever heard praise Allegiant for any reason OTHER than dirt cheap airfare.

Most folks put up with their crap simply because they don't want to pay more.
Click to expand...

I've got a HS buddy who is left seat for them in the 80, he's always having :yes:to do maintenance flights and repositionings to cover broken equipment. He was a navy nuc then went Comair when he got out and did a couple of other regionals in between, he says it's no worse than any other he's worked for, just bigger equipment, like an old school commuter on steroids.
 
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