Allegiant Captain Fired For Evacuation

I'm happy, and have no problem with union pilots flying for airlines.

Is there a market for an airline that doesn't want union pilots? Seems like one group has the hate going for another group. If you don't want to fly a non-union plane, then that is your right and power as a consumer. Should the market for non-union pilots be denied to the flying public?

Why do we have part 121 regs? Why is there a bunch of three letter agencies watching over all that the flying public is exposed to? Why should there be a union pilot market exclusively? Why should flight jobs be denied to people without a union card?

These are not rhetorical questions. If you have good answers - I'm all ears.
 
The problem with airline unions is there is no hiring hall/common training hub across multiple airlines where you maintain seniority in a lateral shift.
 
Henning said:
The problem with airline unions is there is no hiring hall/common training hub across multiple airlines where you maintain seniority in a lateral shift.
Click to expand...

Yep. The RLA also severely restricts their overall power, and without the ability to strike, there's only so much they can do. But I still get a lot of overall benefit, and as such support my union's efforts.
 
taters said:
Unions are one thing, Airline unions are a whole nother animal and are unfortunately a very necessary part of the mix.
Click to expand...

This is one of the most accurate things I've read here.
 
docmirror said:
Why do we have part 121 regs? Why is there a bunch of three letter agencies watching over all that the flying public is exposed to? Why should there be a union pilot market exclusively? Why should flight jobs be denied to people without a union card?
Click to expand...

Just like Part 91, there's a lot of gray area in 135 and 121 when it comes to safety. Being legal isn't necessarily safe. The FAA only responds to political pressure - their rules only change when people die, and even then strong lobbying can sway their decision. Just look at how the rest rules of Part 117 came about, and then see how they exempted the cargo guys. It's all friggin' politics, and not a damned one of them is actually interested in crew rest.

There are lots of non-union flying jobs out there. Jonsey flies for a non-union regional. Corporate, air ambulance, etc. Not everyone needs to work for a legacy airline. There are still lots of options if you don't want to do the union thing.
 
docmirror said:
I'm happy, and have no problem with union pilots flying for airlines.

Is there a market for an airline that doesn't want union pilots? Seems like one group has the hate going for another group. If you don't want to fly a non-union plane, then that is your right and power as a consumer. Should the market for non-union pilots be denied to the flying public?

Why do we have part 121 regs? Why is there a bunch of three letter agencies watching over all that the flying public is exposed to? Why should there be a union pilot market exclusively? Why should flight jobs be denied to people without a union card?

These are not rhetorical questions. If you have good answers - I'm all ears.
Click to expand...

IIRC... People Express tried that business model 30 years ago...

Ran efficient, lean of peak in operating costs and literally got run out of the market because they scared the crap out of all the other airlines...

Anyone notice the MAJOR hassles Boeing got when moving non union workers into the S Carolina area....:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
docmirror said:
I'm happy, and have no problem with union pilots flying for airlines.

Is there a market for an airline that doesn't want union pilots?

These are not rhetorical questions. If you have good answers - I'm all ears.
Click to expand...

Non Union Airlines
-Valuejet - crashed and shut down
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed...nt-ceo-lives-his-worst-dream-teamster-pilots/

Jetblue started non-union but is now ALPA

Skywest is technically non-union but has a contract and an MEC so if it walks and talks like a duck, well

Non Union Airlines usually start with good intentions, but overtime they start falling into the trap of temptation to save money . These efforts tend to have a direct impact on safety whether they realize it or not. Such as

Crew scheduling treating new-hires/reserves like some guy the used to **** in prison, making them fly fatigued and tricking them into breaking the law.

Thats just one tiny example that comes to mind , not to mention "Ops check OK" in response to anything you right up...this gets the plane where they want it so they can have even more fun with the pencil. I am thankful the carrier I fly for does NOT engage in this crap, but many do and I will always be glad to stand with them in their fight. It could happen to any of us in a blink of an eye.
 
taters said:
Non Union Airlines
-Valuejet - crashed and shut down
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed...nt-ceo-lives-his-worst-dream-teamster-pilots/

Jetblue started non-union but is now ALPA

Skywest is technically non-union but has a contract and an MEC so if it walks and talks like a duck, well

Non Union Airlines usually start with good intentions, but overtime they start falling into the trap of temptation to save money . These efforts tend to have a direct impact on safety whether they realize it or not. Such as

Crew scheduling treating new-hires/reserves like some guy the used to **** in prison, making them fly fatigued and tricking them into breaking the law.

Thats just one tiny example that comes to mind , not to mention "Ops check OK" in response to anything you right up...this gets the plane where they want it so they can have even more fun with the pencil. I am thankful the carrier I fly for does NOT engage in this crap, but many do and I will always be glad to stand with them in their fight. It could happen to any of us in a blink of an eye.
Click to expand...

You do realize Value Jet that crashed into the Everglades was NOT the fault of the crew,,, but of ground handlers...:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:
 
taters said:
Non Union Airlines
-Valuejet - crashed and shut down
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed...nt-ceo-lives-his-worst-dream-teamster-pilots/

Jetblue started non-union but is now ALPA

Skywest is technically non-union but has a contract and an MEC so if it walks and talks like a duck, well

Non Union Airlines usually start with good intentions, but overtime they start falling into the trap of temptation to save money . These efforts tend to have a direct impact on safety whether they realize it or not. Such as

Crew scheduling treating new-hires/reserves like some guy the used to **** in prison, making them fly fatigued and tricking them into breaking the law.

Thats just one tiny example that comes to mind , not to mention "Ops check OK" in response to anything you right up...this gets the plane where they want it so they can have even more fun with the pencil. I am thankful the carrier I fly for does NOT engage in this crap, but many do and I will always be glad to stand with them in their fight. It could happen to any of us in a blink of an eye.
Click to expand...

I've seen it first hand. Non Union, merit based upgrades...
Who gets upgraded? The guys willing to fly broken equipment and fly tired. Management doesn't even need to threaten. The system is built to do the job automatically. You see something unsafe and ask the capt to write it up? Management looks at you and smiles. They say "nice job" and pat you on the back. You are also quietly overlooked when it comes to upgrade.

I have serious safety concerns with non Union outfits... And I'm NOT a union guy in general.
 
N801BH said:
You do realize Value Jet that crashed into the Everglades was NOT the fault of the crew,,, but of ground handlers...:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:
Click to expand...

Further, they weren't "shut down." They bought AirTran and took the AirTran name to obfuscate their history of being an unsafe, scratch carrier.
 
taters said:
Non Union Airlines
-Valuejet - crashed and shut down
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed...nt-ceo-lives-his-worst-dream-teamster-pilots/

Jetblue started non-union but is now ALPA
Click to expand...

All these years, and you have ONE example of a non-union plane crash that wasn't caused by the crew? Or even the proximate cause? And you want to extend blame for the accident to the non-union pilots who DIED trying to save the lives of their pax.

You got balls, that for sure. No facts, but balls.

I guess all those other crashes from union pilots are ok, because - well they were union pilots who failed and that's ok. Value jet wasn't put out of business because of their non-union pilots, they bought another airline and are still in business under a different name today(Air Tran). If you fly on Air Tran, you are flying Value Jet with a diff name.

All the other stuff is a bunch of union whining. If they don't follow the rules, they get fined like anyone else. Still waiting for an example that non-union pilots should be denied a market because they are non-union.
 
N801BH said:
You do realize Value Jet that crashed into the Everglades was NOT the fault of the crew,,, but of ground handlers...:dunno::dunno::dunno::dunno:
Click to expand...

yes it was the ignoramus bunch of their employees that allowed it to happen...but the broader point is that of their failure as an airline as it relates to safety.


This is just the tip of iceburg on wikismart with some references I can vouch for:

In August 1995, the Department of Defense (DoD) rejected ValuJet's bid to fly military personnel. In a scathing report, the DoD cited serious deficiencies in ValuJet's quality assurance procedures.[5]

The Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Atlanta field office sent a memo on February 14, 1996, to Washington, D.C., stating that "consideration should be given to an immediate FAR-121 re-certification of this airline" - in other words, the FAA wanted ValuJet grounded. ValuJet airplanes made 15 emergency landings in 1994, 57 in 1995, and 57 from January through May 1996. In February the FAA ordered ValuJet to seek approval before adding any new aircraft or cities to their network, something the industry had not seen since deregulation in 1979. This attempt at removing ValuJet's certification was "lost in the maze at FAA" according to NTSB Chairman Jim Hall.[7] By this time, ValuJet's accident rate was not only one of the highest in the low-fare sector, but was more than 14 times that of the legacy airlines


docmirror said:
All these years, and you have ONE example of a non-union plane crash that wasn't caused by the crew? Or even the proximate cause? And you want to extend blame for the accident to the non-union pilots who DIED trying to save the lives of their pax.

You got balls, that for sure. No facts, but balls.

I guess all those other crashes from union pilots are ok, because - well they were union pilots who failed and that's ok. Value jet wasn't put out of business because of their non-union pilots, they bought another airline and are still in business under a different name today(Air Tran). If you fly on Air Tran, you are flying Value Jet with a diff name.

All the other stuff is a bunch of union whining. If they don't follow the rules, they get fined like anyone else. Still waiting for an example that non-union pilots should be denied a market because they are non-union.
Click to expand...


Maybe you haven't figured it out yet but I'm not here to tickle your fancy , since you appear to be such a genius I'm sure your research will turn up plenty of suspects, mine turned up 4 in less than 5 minutes.
 
Last edited:
taters said:
yes it was the ignoramus bunch of their employees that allowed it to happen.


This is just the tip of iceburg on wikismart with some references I can vouch for:

In August 1995, the Department of Defense (DoD) rejected ValuJet's bid to fly military personnel. In a scathing report, the DoD cited serious deficiencies in ValuJet's quality assurance procedures.[5]

The Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Atlanta field office sent a memo on February 14, 1996, to Washington, D.C., stating that "consideration should be given to an immediate FAR-121 re-certification of this airline" - in other words, the FAA wanted ValuJet grounded. ValuJet airplanes made 15 emergency landings in 1994, 57 in 1995, and 57 from January through May 1996. In February the FAA ordered ValuJet to seek approval before adding any new aircraft or cities to their network, something the industry had not seen since deregulation in 1979. This attempt at removing ValuJet's certification was "lost in the maze at FAA" according to NTSB Chairman Jim Hall.[7] By this time, ValuJet's accident rate was not only one of the highest in the low-fare sector, but was more than 14 times that of the legacy airlines
Click to expand...

Ha Ha Ha.....:lol::lol::lol::rofl::rofl::rofl:..

The DoD whining about poor quality.....

You do realize EVERY project they have put out to bid over the last 30 years came in 300-3000% over Budget.....

And, They have not WON a war for the USA in 50 years....:mad2::mad2::mad::mad:..


Sure... I trust their opinion...:no::no:
 
So all that blather from the politics side of the arena means that non-union pilots are both unethical and should be denied a market to the US public.

What a load of Crap with a capital C. If I want to take a ride on a non-union carrier that is complying with the current 121 regs that should be between me, the airline and the FAA inspectors.

Let's look at AA in the past 5 years. Or any of the other union places that have faced huge fines. I just don't see what this has to do with being in a pilots union today. Like they were some kind of shyte-don't-stink gold plated commode group. Eff that.
 
Non-union does NOT equal bad airline. Non-union likely means management takes care of its pilots. SkyWest is an example.

Airline management gets the union they deserve.

BTW, not to arm chair, but ValueJet flew right over KTNT on the way to the swamp. Then they became AirTran and then SWA bought them.
 
Captain said:
Non-union does NOT equal bad airline. Non-union likely means management takes care of its pilots. SkyWest is an example.

Airline management gets the union they deserve.

BTW, not to arm chair, but ValueJet flew right over KTNT on the way to the swamp. Then they became AirTran and then SWA bought them.
Click to expand...

Most outfits start out non Union. They take care of their pilots so well that a union gets voted in. I have worked for a couple who followed that very path. Specifically hired Union hating pilots, and still managed to change enough minds to get Union voted in.
 
Captain said:
Non-union does NOT equal bad airline. Non-union likely means management takes care of its pilots. SkyWest is an example.

Airline management gets the union they deserve.

BTW, not to arm chair, but ValueJet flew right over KTNT on the way to the swamp. Then they became AirTran and then SWA bought them.
Click to expand...

Interesting... Ya got a link to a flight track of the ill fated flight ?:dunno:
 
taters said:
Maybe you haven't figured it out yet but I'm not here to answer your questions , since you appear to be such a genius I'm sure your research will turn up plenty of suspects, mine turned up 4 in less than 5 minutes.
Click to expand...

You turned up squadoosh in forever. There's nothing related to union or non-union difference in any of that. Certainly nothing to warrant calling them unethical.

It's a dirty dog shame you got a hard on for people who want a job, and don't want to play your union socialist/commie games. All you can do is dump on people who try to get ahead without your cigar chomping, union organizing, slush fund patronage.

I'm done.
 
docmirror said:
All these years, and you have ONE example of a non-union plane crash that wasn't caused by the crew? Or even the proximate cause? And you want to extend blame for the accident to the non-union pilots who DIED trying to save the lives of their pax.

You got balls, that for sure. No facts, but balls.

I guess all those other crashes from union pilots are ok, because - well they were union pilots who failed and that's ok. Value jet wasn't put out of business because of their non-union pilots, they bought another airline and are still in business under a different name today(Air Tran). If you fly on Air Tran, you are flying Value Jet with a diff name.

All the other stuff is a bunch of union whining. If they don't follow the rules, they get fined like anyone else. Still waiting for an example that non-union pilots should be denied a market because they are non-union.
Click to expand...

I've been trying to figure out for several years now where people were getting a value from the union, either on the management or rank and file side.:dunno: To me it looks like at most airlines they aren't particularly effective getting pay and quality of life issue value for the rank and file. I haven't really seen their 'value added' benefit.
 
docmirror said:
You turned up squadoosh in forever. There's nothing related to union or non-union difference in any of that. Certainly nothing to warrant calling them unethical.

It's a dirty dog shame you got a hard on for people who want a job, and don't want to play your union socialist/commie games. All you can do is dump on people who try to get ahead without your cigar chomping, union organizing, slush fund patronage.

I'm done.
Click to expand...

You are totally missing the point of the discussion ...this has nothing to do with "socialist/commie games" Id wager 80-90% of us are as politically conservative as you get.
Sleep it off.

If you actually had real facts about this industry you would be far better positioned to have a discussion about it.
 
N801BH said:
You do realize EVERY project they have put out to bid over the last 30 years came in 300-3000% over Budget.....
Click to expand...
No I don't realize that. In fact a simple Google search will show the undecided lurker that this is far from true.

N801BH said:
Sure... I trust their opinion...:no::no:
Click to expand...
That's all right, they probably don't trust yours either. :rolleyes:

Nauga,
ready to be called part of the problem
 
docmirror said:
I'm done.
Click to expand...

That's good. You had me fooled for a bit that you were actually curious. I should know better with this board - people ask stuff just to provide a platform to rant.
 
N801BH said:
Interesting... Ya got a link to a flight track of the ill fated flight ?:dunno:
Click to expand...

Well I'll be darned. I've been under the impression they overflew TNT since the crash. Your post was the first to get me questioning that. I did find the track and they crashed right between MIA and TNT.

If they took off knowing they were going to crash they could have made TNT. But of course they didn't know that and by the time they did it's obvious they couldn't make either. Maybe OPF but that'd take a super pilot with Devine premonition to pull that off.

So, my apologies, they did NOT overfly TNT.

Pretty sure that they DID become AirTran after and SWA did acquire them...
 
Corporate doesn't have a great track record of enviable pay and working conditions in the aggregate, so I'm not quite sure that is a particularly great example of the kind of labor construct professional pilots would like the industry to go towards.
 
Kritchlow said:
I've seen it first hand. Non Union, merit based upgrades...
Who gets upgraded? The guys willing to fly broken equipment and fly tired. Management doesn't even need to threaten. The system is built to do the job automatically. You see something unsafe and ask the capt to write it up? Management looks at you and smiles. They say "nice job" and pat you on the back. You are also quietly overlooked when it comes to upgrade.

I have serious safety concerns with non Union outfits... And I'm NOT a union guy in general.
Click to expand...

Unions carry a stigma and are grossly misunderstood by the general public. Within every airline there is a defined split. You have the unionized pilots, mechanics, flight attendants and rampers and then you have the non-unionized management. In accordance with all anti-union arguments the management side should be filled with only the best and brightest, those who achieved their position through pure merit. If you believe that to be true you're belief can only be based on pure fantasy because take it from me, that is absolutely, decidedly not true.
 
Henning said:
The problem with airline unions is there is no hiring hall/common training hub across multiple airlines where you maintain seniority in a lateral shift.
Click to expand...
Right..... So you can be like the merchant marine with zero loyalty to the company you work for.

No thanks. There is a big reason why I left AMO for active duty.
 
The pilot unions are doing such a bang up job for their dues paying members that regional pilots are still living on Ramen and showering at the airport.
 
Turningfinal said:
The pilot unions are doing such a bang up job for their dues paying members that regional pilots are still living on Ramen and showering at the airport.
Click to expand...

But they're not flying broken airplanes or fatigued, which is really all you should be concerned with unless you're a professional pilot.
 
Kritchlow said:
But they're not flying broken airplanes or fatigued, which is really all you should be concerned with unless you're a professional pilot.
Click to expand...

I'll be concerned with whatever I decide to be concerned with.

I would also argue pay and fatigue go hand in hand in the aviation world. Can't afford to live near base because your union can't even bargain a paycheck more than the guy working at McDonalds? Have fun with your commute.
 
Turningfinal said:
I'll be concerned with whatever I decide to be concerned with.

I would also argue pay and fatigue go hand in hand in the aviation world. Can't afford to live near base because your union can't even bargain a paycheck more than the guy working at McDonalds? Have fun with your commute.
Click to expand...

Unless you've lived it...

Typical POA. Private pilots telling seasoned airline guys how it is.
 
Turningfinal said:
I don't have to be a seasoned airline guy to realize **** like that.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't tell you how to do your job. Unless you're flying in the 121 world, you have absolutely zero knowledge of what you're talking about. No clue whatsoever.
 
Kritchlow said:
I wouldn't tell you how to do your job. Unless you're flying in the 121 world, you have absolutely zero knowledge of what you're talking about. No clue whatsoever.
Click to expand...

I never told anyone how to do their job. Just opined on the "success" of the pilot unions in bargaining what is essentially minimum wage for regional pilots.

When all my regional buddies are bitching about their pay, and opinions posted all over the news/internet about similar topics, I can't be too far off base.
 
Turningfinal said:
I never told anyone how to do their job. Just opined on the "success" of the pilot unions in bargaining what is essentially minimum wage for regional pilots.

When all my regional buddies are bitching about their pay, and opinions posted all over the news/internet about similar topics, I can't be too far off base.
Click to expand...

You have zero experience dealing with airline management, and zero belonging to airline unions.
Apparently your buddies who do have some experience like the union enough to keep them.
I'm no champion of unions in general, but has been stated airlines are different. That's why way more than the average work force airlines are organized.

Until you walk in the footsteps of an airline guy, you should not be entitled to an opinion on airline unions.
Everyone should be entitled to their own INFORMED opinions.
 
Kritchlow said:
Until you walk in the footsteps of an airline guy, you should not be entitled to an opinion on airline unions.
Everyone should be entitled to their own INFORMED opinions.
Click to expand...

Ah, the typical Internet response from those who can't refute.

And I LOL'd at the "bbbbbut THIS industry union is different"....a poster a few pages back nailed it. Every union is special :rolleyes2:
 
Fearless Tower said:
Right..... So you can be like the merchant marine with zero loyalty to the company you work for.

No thanks. There is a big reason why I left AMO for active duty.
Click to expand...

Not trolling, sincere question since I know little of the US maritime industry. But why is the bolded above a "problem" exactly,considering that such dynamic is a given in all manners of american employer relationship towards their employees?

Isn't lateral income/job portability the greatest leverage tool for employees? Isn't that precisely the problem with airline pilots and their stovepiped seniority numbers, beholden to one employer since they're life-vested after decades of time (some of us consider our time expended our greatest measure of loyalty, since it's the most valuable commodity proles have). I'm sincerely curious how the dynamics of national seniority lists work out in the maritime industry. Is it even a compatible analogy to the airline marketplace?
 
Turningfinal said:
Ah, the typical Internet response from those who can't refute.

And I LOL'd at the "bbbbbut THIS industry union is different"....a poster a few pages back nailed it. Every union is special :rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

Whatever.... I'm laughing. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
I'm done arguing with amateurs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top