Mesa AZ incident.

Heard different numbers for SOB..
 
dans2992 said:
Never lifted off on takeoff run. Went off the end of the runway at 89 kts.
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Does anyone here know how the control locks work on a Honda Jet?
 
What a preventable tragedy if it was caused by locked controls.

Reports say they ran through the perimeter fence and hit a car.
Some of the victims might not have been in the plane.
 
Gust locks on the Honda jet wrap around the yoke and externally on the rudder.

1730903487665.png
 
Flaps not set?
 
AV8R_87 said:
Reports say they ran through the perimeter fence and hit a car.
Some of the victims might not have been in the plane.
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The report linked in reply #5 says 4 on the jet and 1 in the car hit by the jet. The pilot had "serious injuries".
 
Aren't HondaJets known for attempted takeoffs with parking brakes applied?
 
Listen to ATC. He had a fire off the end of the runway where he had just cleared the jet to depart and then cleared a plane to take off into the column of smoke before he caught on there was a crash. And still didn’t close the field. Retraining will be needed! Regardless of the crash, the ATC response will receive as much discussion.
 
skyking3286 said:
Listen to ATC. He had a fire off the end of the runway where he had just cleared the jet to depart and then cleared a plane to take off into the column of smoke before he caught on there was a crash. And still didn’t close the field. Retraining will be needed! Regardless of the crash, the ATC response will receive as much discussion.
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ATC isn’t authorized to close the field. They just control traffic in and out of it.
 
Sad condolences to the families RIP
 
Jim_R said:
The report linked in reply #5 says 4 on the jet and 1 in the car hit by the jet. The pilot had "serious injuries".
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My info (word of mouth) indicates it was the son of the owner sitting in the passenger section that survived. He’s been released from the hospital. The fuselage broke and the cockpit separated.

Anecdotal reports that the trucks initially used water on the fire, which spread a flaming pool of Jet A. Disclaimer - I wasn’t there, I didn’t see it, this is just what I heard.
 
iamtheari said:
It would be pretty hard to miss that on the yoke.
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And I'd think that the plane would at least be flyable with the rudder locked. The "steer by wire" system may mask the lock, so discovering it would mean you are underway.
 
dans2992 said:
Anecdotal reports that the trucks initially used water on the fire, which spread a flaming pool of Jet A. Disclaimer - I wasn’t there, I didn’t see it, this is just what I heard.
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I do not see that Falcon field has ARFF, which isn't required of non-commercial service airports. First trucks on scene likely came from local FD, and carry little to no foam usually.
 
I think that the past tapes have demonstrated that a tower has closed the field immediately after an incident. That is well within their authority to manage workloads. Airport managers don’t manage ATC ops.
 
skyking3286 said:
I think that the past tapes have demonstrated that a tower has closed the field immediately after an incident. That is well within their authority to manage workloads. Airport managers don’t manage ATC ops.
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ATC does not have the authority to close an Airport or any portion of it. They do have the authority to not clear airplanes to land, depart or taxi on it. When you hear them say the Airport is closed it is because it already has been by management.

3−3−1. LANDING AREA CONDITION
If you observe or are informed of any condition which affects the safe use of a landing area:
NOTE−
1. The airport management/military operations office is responsible for observing and reporting the condition of the landing
area.
2. It is the responsibility of the agency operating the airport to provide the tower with current information regarding airport
conditions.
3. A disabled aircraft on a runway, after occupants are clear, is normally handled by flight standards and airport
management/military operations office personnel in the same manner as any obstruction; e.g., construction equipment.
a. Relay the information to the airport manager/military operations office concerned.
b. Copy verbatim any information received and record the name of the person submitting it.
c. Confirm information obtained from other than authorized airport or FAA personnel unless this function is
the responsibility of the military operations office.
NOTE−
Civil airport managers are required to provide a list of airport employees who are authorized to issue information
concerning conditions affecting the safe use of the airport.
d. If you are unable to contact the airport management or operator, issue a NOTAM publicizing an unsafe
condition and inform the management or operator as soon as practicable.
EXAMPLE−
“DISABLED AIRCRAFT ON RUNWAY.’’
NOTE−
1. Legally, only the airport management/military operations office can close a runway.
2. Military controllers are not authorized to issue NOTAMs. It is the responsibility of the military operations office.
 
luvflyin said:
ATC does not have the authority to close an Airport or any portion of it. They do have the authority to not clear airplanes to land, depart or taxi on it. When you hear them say the Airport is closed it is because it already has been by management.

3−3−1. LANDING AREA CONDITION
If you observe or are informed of any condition which affects the safe use of a landing area:
NOTE−
1. The airport management/military operations office is responsible for observing and reporting the condition of the landing
area.
2. It is the responsibility of the agency operating the airport to provide the tower with current information regarding airport
conditions.
3. A disabled aircraft on a runway, after occupants are clear, is normally handled by flight standards and airport
management/military operations office personnel in the same manner as any obstruction; e.g., construction equipment.
a. Relay the information to the airport manager/military operations office concerned.
b. Copy verbatim any information received and record the name of the person submitting it.
c. Confirm information obtained from other than authorized airport or FAA personnel unless this function is
the responsibility of the military operations office.
NOTE−
Civil airport managers are required to provide a list of airport employees who are authorized to issue information
concerning conditions affecting the safe use of the airport.
d. If you are unable to contact the airport management or operator, issue a NOTAM publicizing an unsafe
condition and inform the management or operator as soon as practicable.
EXAMPLE−
“DISABLED AIRCRAFT ON RUNWAY.’’
NOTE−
1. Legally, only the airport management/military operations office can close a runway.
2. Military controllers are not authorized to issue NOTAMs. It is the responsibility of the military operations office.
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That's a distinction without a difference. I've heard tapes were ATC has cancelled operations clearances and declared an airport closed seconds after a crash. No one is going to quibble about it or go find the airport manager for an official declaration when there's a raging fire on the departure end of a runway and fire trucks are rolling.
 
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3393RP said:
That's a distinction without a difference. I've heard tapes were ATC has cancelled operations clearances and declared an airport closed after a crash. No one is going to quibble about it or go find the airport manager for an official declaration when there's a raging fire on the departure end of a runway and fire trucks are rolling.
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There is a difference legally. Only the Airport Manager, or their designees, have legal authority to close an airport. ATC may restrict operations on the airport, but they can't close it, the Airport Manager, or usually Ops, have to make that call officially and issue the NOTAM. ATC can't issue that NOTAM.

In an emergency, there are procedures and communication between all parties at the airport and things will get shaken out. May take a few minutes for the communication tree to go up, but it happens.

Now the FAA has allowed precedent to be set that you can still take off and land on a closed runway, but that's for another thread.
 
midwestpa24 said:
There is a difference legally. Only the Airport Manager, or their designees, have legal authority to close an airport. ATC may restrict operations on the airport, but they can't close it, the Airport Manager, or usually Ops, have to make that call officially and issue the NOTAM. ATC can't issue that NOTAM.

In an emergency, there are procedures and communication between all parties at the airport and things will get shaken out. May take a few minutes for the communication tree to go up, but it happens.

Now the FAA has allowed precedent to be set that you can still take off and land on a closed runway, but that's for another thread.
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Sometimes it happens not in a matter of minutes, but in seconds. Plane crashes, Tower pulls the Crash Phone, Fire Department and Airport Management respond immediately and Airport Managements response is ‘airport closed.’ Tower tells pilots that the Airport is closed, but they ain’t the ones what ‘declared’ it. Perhaps Airport Management doesn’t do it. Nothing stops ATC from handling Air Traffic as if Management had. They can still say go around, cancel takeoff/landing clearance, remain clear of the Delta, depart the Delta etc etc.
 
3393RP said:
That's a distinction without a difference. I've heard tapes were ATC has cancelled operations clearances and declared an airport closed after a crash. No one is going to quibble about it or go find the airport manager for an official declaration when there's a raging fire on the departure end of a runway and fire trucks are rolling.
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Yup. Except for the ‘declared’ an airport closed part. Like you said, the end result concerning the movement of Air Traffic will be as if the Airport had been closed.
 
midwestpa24 said:
There is a difference legally. Only the Airport Manager, or their designees, have legal authority to close an airport. ATC may restrict operations on the airport, but they can't close it, the Airport Manager, or usually Ops, have to make that call officially and issue the NOTAM. ATC can't issue that NOTAM.

In an emergency, there are procedures and communication between all parties at the airport and things will get shaken out. May take a few minutes for the communication tree to go up, but it happens.

Now the FAA has allowed precedent to be set that you can still take off and land on a closed runway, but that's for another thread.
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On the “…now the FAA has allowed precedent to be set that you can still take off and land on a closed runway…” I don’t think it’s as simple as you can do it anytime. Wasn’t that about the time there was airport construction going on and the pilot checked with the contractor and they said we’re on lunch break and off the runway so go ahead and go???
 
3393RP said:
That's a distinction without a difference. I've heard tapes were ATC has cancelled operations clearances and declared an airport closed after a crash. No one is going to quibble about it or go find the airport manager for an official declaration when there's a raging fire on the departure end of a runway and fire trucks are rolling.
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LUK was announced "closed" when the twin in front of me in the pattern landed gear-up. Even with two other unobstructed runways, I had to land elsewhere. That's the norm.
 
Letter's of Agreement cover a lot of the areas of conflicting opinions I'm seeing here.

The facilities I worked at all had LOAs with the airport owner/operator specifying that, in the event of an accident, the runway or airport was automatically closed. In this case, it appears to have taken a little time for the tower controller to recognize that an accident had occurred-- but once he did, the airport closure was probably automatic.

DTW had a similar LOA, specifying that a "nil" breaking action report automatically closed the runway until the county inspected and reopened it. I found out about that one while riding in the jumpseat of a DC10 about to land there-- the Cessna 172 that landed ahead of us said it was "really slippery", and when asked by the tower controller to specify "fair, poor, or nil", responded "nil". The tower controller immediately announced the runway was closed and issued us a go-around. No, my DC10 captain was NOT happy....
 
flibmeister said:
Letter's of Agreement cover a lot of the areas of conflicting opinions I'm seeing here.

The facilities I worked at all had LOAs with the airport owner/operator specifying that, in the event of an accident, the runway or airport was automatically closed. In this case, it appears to have taken a little time for the tower controller to recognize that an accident had occurred-- but once he did, the airport closure was probably automatic.

DTW had a similar LOA, specifying that a "nil" breaking action report automatically closed the runway until the county inspected and reopened it. I found out about that one while riding in the jumpseat of a DC10 about to land there-- the Cessna 172 that landed ahead of us said it was "really slippery", and when asked by the tower controller to specify "fair, poor, or nil", responded "nil". The tower controller immediately announced the runway was closed and issued us a go-around. No, my DC10 captain was NOT happy....
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The Towers I worked at didn’t have those kinds of LOA’s but I see them as a good idea. Except maybe for a ‘flib’ getting a runway closed after being coerced by the Tower to say nil. Yeah, he coulda said fair or poor. It’d be interesting to see if KFFZ had such an LOA with The City of Mesa. I used to be able to get LOA’s but my source has dried up. Anyway, it underscores that only Airport Management can close the runway. It looks like you worked ORD Tower many moons ago. Do you remember Jim Alexander?
 
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