LoLPilot
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That’s very helpful, actually!
Get A&P license to maintain own Airplane
- Thread starter MikeG2572
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That’s very helpful, actually!
If you're halfway seriously thinking about trying to get a mechanic certificate, just go to school for it. I would have put in far less time and effort doing it that way and there is no question that your experience will be accepted at the end of the time. You might be able to find night classes at a community college that would allow you to work a day job at the same time.
Eric Lehto
Pre-takeoff checklist
I just started down this path myself. The community college here has an FAA accredited A&P program. I'm about a month in to the first powerplant course. I'm stretched fairly thin, but it's doable. School runs from 0800 until 1315, M-F. Then I head in to work ~1400 until around 0000-0100. Wash, rinse, repeat for the next two years. Paid ~$750 for this semester's tuition and books. No lab fees, all tools provided by the school.
My reasoning for doing it is partially to do my own maintenance on my Sundowner, but mostly because it's something I've always wanted to learn and the price/timing was right. And the knowledge will come in handy down the road when it's time to build my own EAB.
My reasoning for doing it is partially to do my own maintenance on my Sundowner, but mostly because it's something I've always wanted to learn and the price/timing was right. And the knowledge will come in handy down the road when it's time to build my own EAB.
You'll also be surprised how your A&P will crossover to other industries. Very few outside training programs include such a variety of skill sets as the A&P does. For example, years ago there was a dental equipment mfg'r in the PNW that offered a standing job offer to the top 10% at a CC A&P program at a wage that was 3x what a new A&P could make at an FBO. Another instance, when directional drilling was first being used, one of the original drillers only hired experienced A&Ps (5+ years) to service their equipment. Their motto was "whether 10,000 feet up or 10,000 feet down" it mattered to have the right mind set.
All these posts are great, AP license, just like all FAA certifications, It’s a license to” learn! The price you quoted is fairly standard, nation wide, they need mechanics, period, welcome to the snap on experience, okay Mapco, Craftsman, Walmart, they all carry tools,that investment will amaze you, over time just the testing equipment, I for example looked for a retired mechanic, found one,news paper add, and got all I needed for about a quarter on the dollar, but even that was expensive. Where I really saved was on the tool box, I paid New price for that, but it was full of aviation tools, lots of elbow grease, and I had a nice set of tools. I do have my IA, at my FISDO every two years I have to attend 8 hours of training, I do owner assisted annuals, but not very often, mostly 337s and STC certifications, thru a local DER. You can save, but it will cost ya!
Ian Pilot
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For me I am an LSRM-A which never expires or gets stale so if I become an A&P through a "shall issue" FSDO after 18 months for a single rating of waiting (even doing nothing) or 30 months I can always do some work as an LSRM to reinstate my currency as an A&P.
The biggest issue is the endless wait waiting for someone else. I waited 1 year for an engine overhaul and then 6 months for the shop to actually put it in. The endless wait on someone else is the most frustrating part of being a pilot and even with 3 planes I consider the availability of each to be at 50% at most because parts break and like a car mechanic friend of mine says airplane parts are ****, to not sugar coat it.
Once I am an A&P I am FREE from the reliance on less than reliable A&Ps or shops where teenagers posing as "repairmen" work on something that means life or death on me.
It doesn't make sense to be in a pilot and entrust a machine with your life if you can't touch it and make damn sure it works ok all by yourself. A stranger will never give it the level of care you will do.
Don't say to naysayers saying it is not worth it. People waste 10 times more time watching TV or wasting away their lives and here you can do something that profits you 100% personally.
Nevermind to also undermine the "rent seeking" nature of artificially high bars and regulations translating into high prices in terms of service or parts.
Even without exercising your A&P the negotiating power is orders of magnitude more if the shop knows you can do your own work yourself and you are not their hostage thanks to CFR 14 Part 43....
The biggest issue is the endless wait waiting for someone else. I waited 1 year for an engine overhaul and then 6 months for the shop to actually put it in. The endless wait on someone else is the most frustrating part of being a pilot and even with 3 planes I consider the availability of each to be at 50% at most because parts break and like a car mechanic friend of mine says airplane parts are ****, to not sugar coat it.
Once I am an A&P I am FREE from the reliance on less than reliable A&Ps or shops where teenagers posing as "repairmen" work on something that means life or death on me.
It doesn't make sense to be in a pilot and entrust a machine with your life if you can't touch it and make damn sure it works ok all by yourself. A stranger will never give it the level of care you will do.
Don't say to naysayers saying it is not worth it. People waste 10 times more time watching TV or wasting away their lives and here you can do something that profits you 100% personally.
Nevermind to also undermine the "rent seeking" nature of artificially high bars and regulations translating into high prices in terms of service or parts.
Even without exercising your A&P the negotiating power is orders of magnitude more if the shop knows you can do your own work yourself and you are not their hostage thanks to CFR 14 Part 43....
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
ok.....what is a "LSRM-A"?
Juliet Hotel
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Obviously its one level better than a LSRM-B.
It's supposedly the class of light sport under which they obtained their light sport repairman certificate (mx) with the "A" being for airplane. However, given the context of their 1st three posts they're either trolling or related to H 2020.
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Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Good points....
Ian Pilot
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It's supposedly the class of light sport under which they obtained their light sport repairman certificate (mx) with the "A" being for airplane. However, given the context of their 1st three posts they're either trolling or related to H 2020.
It is light sport repairman. Most A&P are so ignorant of this incredible and safer class of airplanes, some of them packing avionics not from the 1960s if you can believe that, that they sign up 337's and do "annuals" only to find out about the ASTM rules.
I have been in several LSAs and strangely starting the engine involves pushing a button... like a car. Amazing concept in 2020 huh?
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
call me ignorant....blissfully.
idahoflier
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idahoflier
What makes them safer?
Tarheelpilot
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@Ian Pilot at what hourly shop rate do you consider your airplane shop to be guilty of rent seeking?
Ha. If you mean light sport aircraft like a Piper J-3, Ercoupe 415, and Taylorcraft BC-12? Sure, they've been flying safe for decades. Now if talking about those new fangled SLSAs, then doubtful as they're barely safer than an E/AB aircraft. Then again I didn't spend 120 hours to get a LSRM-A or stay at a Holiday Inn Express...
Funny thing is that cars and aircraft (like the ones above) have been using only a push button to start the engine since the 1930s. While I don't consider a 90+ year old concept to be "amazing" whatever floats your boat is fine by me.
Yeah, those push buttons are much more advanced than a keyed ignition switch. LolHa. If you mean light sport aircraft like a Piper J-3, Ercoupe 415, and Taylorcraft BC-12? Sure, they've been flying safe for decades. Now if talking about those new fangled SLSAs, then doubtful as they're barely safer than an E/AB aircraft. Then again I didn't spend 120 hours to get a LSRM-A or stay at a Holiday Inn Express...
Funny thing is that cars and aircraft (like the ones above) have been using only a push button to start the engine since the 1930s. While I don't consider a 90+ year old concept to be "amazing" whatever floats your boat is fine by me.
Snowmass
Line Up and Wait
Since I always have been a DIY fanatic I have done almost all the maintenance on my own airplanes for almost 70 years but under owner assisted route. This includes two Major IO-520 overhauls and so many cylinder replacements I have lost count, wooden spar replacements (and fabric too), several total repaints, skin replacements. I guess I relate well to mechanics and have always been able to find one that will work with me. I thought about going for the A&P but it is just so much cheaper and simpler to work with a mechanic. And working on airplanes is so much simpler and more pleasant than working on a late model auto it is actually fun. So consider my route to saving money. It could save you a lot on maintenance costs with less hassle.
hindsight2020
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While reading up on the mx allowances of S-LSA and E-LSA, it strikes me that Repairman-Inspection would be a welcome addition to the EAB side for non-builders. Alternatively, a hopefully expanded definition of LSA in the future (MOSAIC or otherwise) and E-LSA by proxy, would be another welcome alternative to approach/attain inspection authority parity with builders on the EAB side. Certainly one of the few things I'm excited about in this hobby as I look to my future participation and transition. Cheers!
Completely worth getting your A&P / IA, it’s not $1000 any more for an annual, mechanics are emboldened enough to start charging time and materials at rates of $120 hr. I was recently quoted 5-50k for an annual in anchorage ak by angle aviation
I strongly recommend getting your IA before buying a plane, I am now basicly grounded until I can finish mine
Don’t be scared about currency requirements, the FAA allows lots of things to count. The have continuing ed you can do now to maintain the IA, you don’t have to do a million annuals anymore to keep it
I submitted a foia request to get all 536 IA in my area but many are on time and materials and won’t give you a quote or fixed rate … yea no thanks, not interested in harming my family financially because the FAA is letting these guys fleece air craft owners.
I strongly recommend getting your IA before buying a plane, I am now basicly grounded until I can finish mine
Don’t be scared about currency requirements, the FAA allows lots of things to count. The have continuing ed you can do now to maintain the IA, you don’t have to do a million annuals anymore to keep it
I submitted a foia request to get all 536 IA in my area but many are on time and materials and won’t give you a quote or fixed rate … yea no thanks, not interested in harming my family financially because the FAA is letting these guys fleece air craft owners.
There the govt and they are the ones running this dog and pony show. I could fly my plane with no certs if the FAA didn’t exist. Glad my FSDO is flexible and they keep people like you out of those jobs
It’s there desision to allow it
I had 2 letters from 2 IAs I worked under on my own plane, no detailed logs and that was enough. Unfortunately they are now retired.
The FAA can also waive the 3 year requirement for the IA as well so you can theoretically get your A&P and test for your IA right after if the FAA approves it.
Also it’s completely acceptable to do this solely to save money, you don’t need to make this into some kind of religious experience, if you feel the existing mechanics are a rip off and you want the cert, I don’t care how high and mighty they make themselves sound and how we are all going to crash our planes if we don’t hire them to lord their infinite wisdom over us, for time and materials at 120$ hr of course lol.
It’s all bull ****, it’s either a reasonably price md service or it’s not,
Just round figures, how much do you make a year? A freelance mechanic doesn't usually bill $120 per hour, but they can. And if they are working for someone else he is certainly not paid that.
The shops will bill that or more depending on their fixed cost. Hardly no one is in this for free.
Its called supply and demand that regulates the price. But based on this thread and your previous thread seems you only have an axe to grind over the annual costs in your area. So instead of whining about it, sign up for the U of A mx program, get your certificate in 2 years, get your supposed "waiver" and get your IA. Then you can charge others $40 per hour or whatever you think is fair for their annuals.
Or you can go E/AB or LSA tormorrow and have it made. Then again you'll probably find something else to beech about.
unsafervguy
En-Route
show me the reg that says actively engaged means full time work? it ain't in there. as long as the person at the FSDO that signs you off is satisfied that you are actively engaged, no problem. I have never worked full time as an A&P, but they had no issue with approving my paperwork to get my IA.
Hence the strong recommendation to get your IA after you buy a plane, I said before at first but it’s going to be tough for a non career wanna be mechanic to get through this process without something to wrench on.
I was thinking if my step son wanted to get into it we would buy a wrecked plane and rebuild it (once I had my own IA), that’s another way to do it and then you aren’t sitting there with a cherry plane you can’t fly because of hustlers and beaurocrats.
Nope, it’s called not having right to repair laws for owners, the FAA is holding owners over a barrel to do business with these people and prices should be fixed since it’s not supply and demand dictating it but rather govt force.Its called supply and demand that regulates the price. But based on this thread and your previous thread seems you only have an axe to grind over the annual costs in your area. So instead of whining about it, sign up for the U of A mx program, get your certificate in 2 years, get your supposed "waiver" and get your IA. Then you can charge others $40 per hour or whatever you think is fair for their annuals.
Or you can go E/AB or LSA tormorrow and have it made. Then again you'll probably find something else to beech about.
Its highly problematic and would never ever fly in the car world, you would have senators tossed out of office when the single mom had to hire a special (very expensive) mechanic EVERY year so she could get to work. But planes are a small niche market and these laws have been around a long time but never have rates been this out of hand before.
And yes that’s exactly what I’m doing, I am dedicating my winter to just getting this done, dosent change that these people are rip off artists using the govt to get their rates, the 2 are not mutually exclusive
I like how you put waiver in parenthesis as if the FAA doesn’t have authority to issue them for their own regs.
Also why is being upset about people exploiting govt regs to profit “having an ax to grind”, pointing out corruption to get others upset in order to maybe hold representative accountable is a good thing.
I think it’s rediculous that iPhones are $1400 but people buy them without govt coersion so it’s truely free market, good for them, not so with annual inspections
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From what I've seen, the prices charged by A&Ps are not that much different from car mechanics.
The FAA has the authority to issue waivers for any regulations. In practice, they're usually very difficult to get. The FAA has to be convinced that the waiver is in the public interest... not just for the benefit of the person requesting the waiver.
I mean if your doing 10 annuals a year that’s an extra 1000 an annual plus your expenses, that seems steep for general liability insurance even for IAs.
I can get engineering errors and omissions cheaper than that
There’s not a govt agency forcing me to use a car mech OR otherwise have to get an onerous costly special mech cert, please don’t cherry pick what I say, it’s dishonest
This is false, I didn’t have to write up why it’s in the public’s interest that I seek out my A&P or what kind of experience I had to satisfy the 3 years for A&P. I also doubt that will be the case when I seek out my IA, there will be a FAA form, I will fill it out and it will likely be approved. When I met with the FSDO it was not this dramatic.
I think even the FAA realizes the position ga owners are in. They also make the exams themselves very difficult, the exams are the barrier to entry not the paper work and waivers
moparrob66
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Im so grateful to have my 172 and I cant wait to finish my zenith and sell the 172 for this exact issue. Never thought I'd have choices like this to make!
Unfortunately the lobby of ga aircraft owners is weak so they get away with this.
It seems when they crafted the light sport rules they made it just so such that capable aerobatic aircraft (even though small and light) have power/speed that’s to high
Even though aerobatics is for sure light sport hobby or perhaps sky writing as a business.
idahoflier
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My guess is that there's at least one and probably two or more orders of magnitude more engineers/engineering firms that there are A&P's/FBO's. It all comes down to numbers, actuaries and competition. I don't like paying for maintenance anymore than the next person, but I do know A&P's aren't getting rich, especially those in GA. I'm just thankful they're willing to pursue the career!
It’s the govt threat of fines and jail time if you don’t use these special mechanics that is the rub. If I just wanted to hire a mechanic because I couldn’t do it myself that’s a whole other matter and part of the free market.
I think more owners will pursue this as prices get more and more insane and eventually every ga aircraft owner friend group will have 1 or 2 just because the shops got to greedy due to the govt enforced client list.
Also saying “paying for mx” as if it’s another bill like gas or electric isent quite right when they are quoting amounts that are semi life changing amounts of money and for sure life changing since this dog and pony show has to legally be done EVERY year.
Maybe you're just not looking hard enough to the right IA? There are a few IAs out there that would be happy to sign off your annual for $500. Easy. Ran across some of their work a couple years ago.
Who is exploiting what regulations and what corruption are you referring to?
So the numbers of active A&Ps are below 100,000 nationally for the first time in decades, the active IA numbers are down by a quarter, and in the next 3 years another 15% of those active A&Ps will be of retirement age... and you believe that has no influence on the supply and demand?
You do realize E&O coverage was only a part of my policy as you need a bit more coverage if you plan on performing annuals.
Its the threat of jail time and fines, no such thing exists with getting your car fixed. If I want to work on my car I can just do it.
THAT is my entire argument is the fines and jail time, if the regs were simply suggestions I could ignore and I could proceed with working on my own plane and then flying it around there would be no argument on the supply and demand. And perhaps I would want to hire someone to help me out from time to time, but I would not be relying on that person to allow me to use my own private property, it would be because I wanted to, and not due to any sort of govt duress. The presence of duress means its NOT free market driving this process.
BUT since we live in a non free market administrative state then I am going to be spending my entire winter finishing my A&P IA, I shouldn't have issues getting the IA time waiver since they gave me that option via email. Never the less I can think of lot of other things I want to do with my winter than sitting around answering thousands of Dauntless FAA questions .... and then going to MANY nights of O&P tutoring sessions. Nice people and it will be a nice time but again I could be working on many other things instead.
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sansoneservices
Pre-takeoff checklist
Ignore the naysayers. If you're an aviation enthusiast go for it. I got my a&p fresh out of high school, after a few years upgraded to IA to inspect major repairs, annuals. Eventually stashed enough cash to buy a 172 needing some minor repairs. So, go for it
hindsight2020
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I know this topic is tired and a rehash, but again this comes down to the dog chasing the tail. If they unencumbered the damned things off the for-revenue categorization, say a la experimental amateur built, the maintenance regulatory piece (and thus the certificate arse-jumping to wrench writ large) becomes moot.
It's not conjecture either, experimentals are owner maintained every day as you well know, and there's not a national crisis of EABs crashing and killing suburbanites in their NIMBY abodes.
The FAA, just like the DOD and other alphabet soups, is about CONTROL. They won't give it up unless the bigger ape stomps their head and makes them, it's the only language they react to. Original bad faith actors. Look at the poison pill they did with basicmed. Masterclass in pettyness.
In your view, what would be the difference between a "commercial rated" vs a "private rated" A&P?
People dont follow the FARs all the time. Just dont get caught. But as to the fines and jail time, I think you're over reacting a bit.
So why dont you switch to amatuer built or put your current aircraft under experimental exhibition which only requires a condition inspection like a E/AB every year?