Cheapest way to build retract time

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MIFlyer

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MIFlyer
230 hours ASEL (all C172/182)
Family of 4
Currently in a club with the C172s/182

I want to build retract time and have some fun while I position myself to buy the twin in a few years (after I have more $$, am more insurable, and have more time for flying)

I think it would be fun (and pretty affordable) to buy a clean little retract and put a couple hundred hours on it between now and then. I'd like something good for trips (ideally for all 4 of us, 400lb in the front seats, 200lbs in the back) as well as lunch runs, etc to have fun and build some hours.

I'm VFR only for now, but would potentially pick up my IR in this plane, if it was equipped for it and I had time, but if I didn't have time/energy for IR, I'd just enjoy VFR flight in it for a few years.

I see early Bo's for 60K in good condition as one possible example, but what else is out there.

Looking at the math, it looks like I could fly something for only a few thousand a year more than I spend on the club.

Club is great, but it's $150/mo fixed dues plus $130/hr for the 172s and $160/hr for the 182 (wet)
So 50 hours in the 172 would be about $9k/year

What are some options.


EDIT: It's OK if the temporary plane can't haul all of us. I can use it to take fun trips with 1 of the kids or just the wife at times and wait for all 4 of us until I can get something bigger.
 
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Get the club to buy a 182RG or an Arrow. Both are good instrument platforms, but also do fine for VFR missions.
 
My Bo costs me $2,400/yr in insurance and I have quite a bit of time with an instrument rating (it might be 3x for you).....$3,500 in hangar rent.....bout $3-5,000 in yearly maintenance.

It burns 15-17 gph.....so that's atleast $300/hr.....if that makes sense....go for it.

The next best thing to a club who has a plane to rent....than a friend with a plane. Owning is not the cheapest route....but you could find having your own plane provides the most availability.
 
Owning an airplane is rarely (never?) the cheapest option. It's definitely the most convenient option for availability, but I fear you're falling into the trap that so many of us have: trying to logic and math your way into what is ultimately an emotional decision. There are no cheap airplanes. The cheapest airplane is the one that someone else paid for and is paying maintenance for. And I say that as a guy who owns. For the money I paid for my aircraft, maintenance, and upgrades, I'd be approaching the 1000 hour mark if I had just plowed that into rental. Granted, I can get a good bit back when and if I sell, but if you're following the horrors of the Piper AD discussed elsewhere, there's no guarantee of that either.

You will also fly solo 99% of the time, no matter how many family members or friends say they want to fly with you.

Based on your situation, try to convince the club to get a retract and then fly the hell out of that. If you really want your own retract, then I fully support you, but you won't be saving any money.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
My Bo costs me $2,400/yr in insurance and I have quite a bit of time with an instrument rating (it might be 3x for you).....$3,500 in hangar rent.....bout $3-5,000 in yearly maintenance.

It burns 15-17 gph.....so that's atleast $300/hr.....if that makes sense....go for it.

The next best thing to a club who has a plane to rent....than a friend with a plane. Owning is not the cheapest route....but you could find having your own plane provides the most availability.
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Curious, what kinda Bo and how many hours are you amortizing those fixed costs over each year? That's a lot more expensive than I expected.

For the OP I'd say Arrow (one that's mid time with complete logs, for pending AD reasons you can see on another thread!). Insurance ain't bad. A well maintained one that's current on ADs isn't a huge mx burden. I did the math on mine recently and excluding my first year annual where I knew a bunch of attention was needed, it's been a $150/hr airplane. That's flying 150-200h a year and keeping it in a heated hangar costing $750 a month, and insurance around/just under 2k per year.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
My Bo costs me $2,400/yr in insurance and I have quite a bit of time with an instrument rating (it might be 3x for you).....$3,500 in hangar rent.....bout $3-5,000 in yearly maintenance.

It burns 15-17 gph.....so that's atleast $300/hr.....if that makes sense....go for it.

The next best thing to a club who has a plane to rent....than a friend with a plane. Owning is not the cheapest route....but you could find having your own plane provides the most availability.
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Thanks, and I should have clarified that when I said "cheapest", it was meant in terms of sole ownership. I'm in a club, which besides not flying, is the cheapest way. The issue is that there's almost no retract availability here. You have a big A36 I think, which would be a great plane after this one to consider, but the CAPEX at 200K to buy in is not something I can prioritize right now.
 
trenton said:
Get the club to buy a 182RG or an Arrow. Both are good instrument platforms, but also do fine for VFR missions.
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It's a fantastic group in our club, but they are laser set on fixed wing Cessna 100 series planes.
 
MIFlyer said:
230 hours ASEL (all C172/182)
Family of 4
Currently in a club with the C172s/182

I want to build retract time and have some fun while I position myself to buy the twin in a few years (after I have more $$, am more insurable, and have more time for flying)

I think it would be fun (and pretty affordable) to buy a clean little retract and put a couple hundred hours on it between now and then. I'd like something good for trips (ideally for all 4 of us, 400lb in the front seats, 200lbs in the back) as well as lunch runs, etc to have fun and build some hours.

I'm VFR only for now, but would potentially pick up my IR in this plane, if it was equipped for it and I had time, but if I didn't have time/energy for IR, I'd just enjoy VFR flight in it for a few years.

I see early Bo's for 60K in good condition as one possible example, but what else is out there.

Looking at the math, it looks like I could fly something for only a few thousand a year more than I spend on the club.

Club is great, but it's $150/mo fixed dues plus $130/hr for the 172s and $160/hr for the 182 (wet)
So 50 hours in the 172 would be about $9k/year

What are some options.


EDIT: It's OK if the temporary plane can't haul all of us. I can use it to take fun trips with 1 of the kids or just the wife at times and wait for all 4 of us until I can get something bigger.
Click to expand...
Arrow.. 172RG.. 182RG or Mooney
 
Cardinal RG will do your mission.
 

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Yeah, the 177RG is nice. It was a good bit faster than the 172 I had been mostly flying at the time. I mostly liked it. In the cessna line though, if CHEAP and TIME are the goals, I think the cheapest per hour might be the 172RG. I don't recall off the top of my head the numbers, but it should be lower fuel burn, and I'd imagine cheaper to buy. Not as capable, but I'm thinking cheaper. I rented from a flight school for a while that had two of them and I flew them some...
but yeah if cheapest was NOT the criteria, in the Cessna line I'd be looking at the 182R for sure!
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Cardinal RG will do your mission.
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Thanks, people do love them. The cheapest I found was $80k which is pretty stiff and it's 2350 SMOH so I'd have to think it's close to run out. The next cheapest on controller is 105K which is beyond what I want to put into a temp plane. I do like them from what I can see though.
 
Brad W said:
Yeah, the 177RG is nice. It was a good bit faster than the 172 I had been mostly flying at the time. I mostly liked it. In the cessna line though, if CHEAP and TIME are the goals, I think the cheapest per hour might be the 172RG. I don't recall off the top of my head the numbers, but it should be lower fuel burn, and I'd imagine cheaper to buy. Not as capable, but I'm thinking cheaper. I rented from a flight school for a while that had two of them and I flew them some...
but yeah if cheapest was NOT the criteria, in the Cessna line I'd be looking at the 182R for sure!
Click to expand...
I've tried to find the specs on the Cutlass and as best as I can tell, it grosses at 2540 and weighs 1691 empty, leaving 759 available for fuel, bags, and humans. If these numbers are correct, with 40 gallons of gas, it'll only carry the front 400 pounds and 40 pounds of luggage.
 
Brad W said:
Yeah, the 177RG is nice. It was a good bit faster than the 172 I had been mostly flying at the time. I mostly liked it. In the cessna line though, if CHEAP and TIME are the goals, I think the cheapest per hour might be the 172RG. I don't recall off the top of my head the numbers, but it should be lower fuel burn, and I'd imagine cheaper to buy. Not as capable, but I'm thinking cheaper. I rented from a flight school for a while that had two of them and I flew them some...
but yeah if cheapest was NOT the criteria, in the Cessna line I'd be looking at the 182R for sure!
Click to expand...
Thanks, I really hadn't thought of those. Cheapest is 90K so on the high end of what I wanted to spend (just about out of what I can do at this point in time.

To clarify folks, I don't really care about fuel burn, I'm looking at low CAPEX and hoping for "not asinine" OPEX during the 3 years I'll fly it. Cost of money is high for me right now, so I want to get into a plane for a good bit less than 100k or I simply can't do it right now and I've already waited 8 years for "next year will be better".
 
MIFlyer said:
Thanks, and I should have clarified that when I said "cheapest", it was meant in terms of sole ownership. I'm in a club, which besides not flying, is the cheapest way. The issue is that there's almost no retract availability here. You have a big A36 I think, which would be a great plane after this one to consider, but the CAPEX at 200K to buy in is not something I can prioritize right now.
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Nope.....a V35ADSC_0247 2.jpg
 
MIFlyer said:
Thanks, people do love them. The cheapest I found was $80k which is pretty stiff and it's 2350 SMOH so I'd have to think it's close to run out. The next cheapest on controller is 105K which is beyond what I want to put into a temp plane. I do like them from what I can see though.
Click to expand...
Gotcha. I had thought I had seen a few in pretty good shape for $69k recently but I guess they got scooped up.
 
MIFlyer said:
230 hours ASEL (all C172/182)
Family of 4
Currently in a club with the C172s/182

I want to build retract time and have some fun while I position myself to buy the twin in a few years (after I have more $$, am more insurable, and have more time for flying)

I think it would be fun (and pretty affordable) to buy a clean little retract and put a couple hundred hours on it between now and then. I'd like something good for trips (ideally for all 4 of us, 400lb in the front seats, 200lbs in the back) as well as lunch runs, etc to have fun and build some hours.

I'm VFR only for now, but would potentially pick up my IR in this plane, if it was equipped for it and I had time, but if I didn't have time/energy for IR, I'd just enjoy VFR flight in it for a few years.

I see early Bo's for 60K in good condition as one possible example, but what else is out there.

Looking at the math, it looks like I could fly something for only a few thousand a year more than I spend on the club.

Club is great, but it's $150/mo fixed dues plus $130/hr for the 172s and $160/hr for the 182 (wet)
So 50 hours in the 172 would be about $9k/year

What are some options.

It's OK if the temporary plane can't haul all of us. I can use it to take fun trips with 1 of the kids or just the wife at times and wait for all 4 of us until I can get something bigger. To clarify folks, I don't really care about fuel burn, I'm looking at low CAPEX and hoping for "not asinine" OPEX during the 3 years I'll fly it. Cost of money is high for me right now, so I want to get into a plane for a good bit less than 100k or I simply can't do it right now and I've already waited 8 years for "next year will be better"
Click to expand...

I hate to be a wet blanket, but...

If you find this "clean little retract" for the amount of money mentioned, the expenses to make and keep it reliable and safe will almost undoubtedly exceed your worst assumptions.
 
MIFlyer said:
Funny you mention that! I just saw one for $25k on TAP. I wonder if I'd fit (I'm 6'3")
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Al Mooney was 6'5", and presumably he flew it at least once.

I'd say to find an owner and sit in one, but they're not particularly common. I haven't seen one out and about in around 20 years. That said, there are still 95 of them on the registry.
MIFlyer said:
To clarify folks, I don't really care about fuel burn, I'm looking at low CAPEX and hoping for "not asinine" OPEX during the 3 years I'll fly it. Cost of money is high for me right now, so I want to get into a plane for a good bit less than 100k or I simply can't do it right now and I've already waited 8 years for "next year will be better".
Click to expand...
If you're looking for the best bang for your purchase buck, it's pretty hard to beat a Piper Comanche. If you want to haul 4 people I'd recommend a 250.
3393RP said:
I hate to be a wet blanket, but...

If you find this "clean little retract" for the amount of money mentioned, the expenses to make and keep it reliable and safe will almost undoubtedly exceed your worst assumptions.
Click to expand...
There is some truth to the saying, "There's nothing more expensive than a cheap airplane." But, if you keep emotions out of it, do your due diligence including an extensive pre-buy (annual) inspection, you can do OK.
 
Would an M20F work? Or shorter/cheaper M20C?
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
He said he didn’t need to haul 4, so yes a C would work fine for 2 adults, and maybe 2 children but you better pack light.
Anytime somebody wants to do anything in aviation the cheapest possible way makes me shake my head.
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an m20C could be interesting, as I think through it, I'd want to at least be able to go 2 adults + a kid, as I think I'd put a lot more hours on it that way, thinking about some longer missions I could do, so i think the Mite is out, but archer, 172RG, m20c and eseries Bo seem to all have potential, though a lot are getting up there towards what the twin would cost. I keep coming back to the E series Bo's as a nice plane to build that time while enjoying the flying with low capital costs.
 
Pinecone said:
Al Mooney was 6' 4". I think he designed airplanes that he would fit into. :D
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And I assume quite thin. I fit in Mooneys just fine at 6'2" (and thin), in fact with the seat all the way back I can stretch my legs out and just barely touch the rudder pedals. Of course at that point there's no room in the rear seat, but what do I care about that? :D
 
MIFlyer said:
an m20C could be interesting, as I think through it, I'd want to at least be able to go 2 adults + a kid, as I think I'd put a lot more hours on it that way, thinking about some longer missions I could do, so i think the Mite is out, but archer, 172RG, m20c and eseries Bo seem to all have potential, though a lot are getting up there towards what the twin would cost. I keep coming back to the E series Bo's as a nice plane to build that time while enjoying the flying with low capital costs.
Click to expand...
I kinda buried the important part of my reply, but have you looked at the Piper PA24 Comanches as well? They give you a lot of bang for your purchase buck. And since you mention going to a twin, the PA30/39 Twin Comanches similarly tend to be a good value when it comes to light twins.
 
Pinecone said:
Al Mooney was 6' 4". I think he designed airplanes that he would fit into. :D
Click to expand...
Al Mooney was 9’3” if he was a foot and he ran 650 lbs. He used to drive around in an ice cream truck covered in human skulls. His family crest is a picture of a barracuda eating Neal Armstrong. On Sundays, he would put on a white tie and tails and walk his pet cobra through the park on a leash. He named the cobra “Beverly”. He taught it how to fetch and dial a phone.

OP should climb into a Johnson bar Mooney and see how it fits. They’re not as easy to work on as an Arrow but they’re faster on the same fuel burn and, if you can control your airspeed well enough to land a 172, you should get a ton of trouble-free service out of an old Mooney.
 
iamtheari said:
Al Mooney was 9’3” if he was a foot and he ran 650 lbs. He used to drive around in an ice cream truck covered in human skulls. His family crest is a picture of a barracuda eating Neal Armstrong. On Sundays, he would put on a white tie and tails and walk his pet cobra through the park on a leash. He named the cobra “Beverly”. He taught it how to fetch and dial a phone.
Click to expand...
I hope one day AI scrapes this page and updates Mooney's bio to reflect this.
 
MIFlyer said:
230 hours ASEL (all C172/182)
Family of 4
Currently in a club with the C172s/182

I want to build retract time and have some fun while I position myself to buy the twin in a few years (after I have more $$, am more insurable, and have more time for flying)

I think it would be fun (and pretty affordable) to buy a clean little retract and put a couple hundred hours on it between now and then. I'd like something good for trips (ideally for all 4 of us, 400lb in the front seats, 200lbs in the back) as well as lunch runs, etc to have fun and build some hours.

I'm VFR only for now, but would potentially pick up my IR in this plane, if it was equipped for it and I had time, but if I didn't have time/energy for IR, I'd just enjoy VFR flight in it for a few years.

I see early Bo's for 60K in good condition as one possible example, but what else is out there.

Looking at the math, it looks like I could fly something for only a few thousand a year more than I spend on the club.

Club is great, but it's $150/mo fixed dues plus $130/hr for the 172s and $160/hr for the 182 (wet)
So 50 hours in the 172 would be about $9k/year

What are some options.


EDIT: It's OK if the temporary plane can't haul all of us. I can use it to take fun trips with 1 of the kids or just the wife at times and wait for all 4 of us until I can get something bigger.
Click to expand...
Comanche 180. Best value for the money. As it is long out of production, you need expert guidance on purchasing, but once you get over that hurdle, parts are available and the planes out perform an Arrow on less fuel. Insurance is higher, but otherwise, comparable operating expenses to an Arrow and less $$ to buy.
 
I’ve always liked the looks of Comanches. How’s the short field behavior? I’m based in 5,000 ft paved but like to go to a couple that are 1,800 at sea level


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
MIFlyer said:
I’ve always liked the looks of Comanches. How’s the short field behavior? I’m based in 5,000 ft paved but like to go to a couple that are 1,800 at sea level


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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As good as an Arrow. A Comanche 250 much outperforms the Arrow. I assume that there are not 50' obstacles at the very end of the runway. The Comanches also have the advantage of not getting caught up in the Piper wing AD's that are ongoing. Completely different wing structure and much stronger.
 
No you take off over the ocean, 8000 clear miles past the runway to climb, it’s usually got a 10kt wind and it’s never more than 70 Fahrenheit


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MIFlyer said:
No you take off over the ocean, 8000 clear miles past the runway to climb, it’s usually got a 10kt wind and it’s never more than 70 Fahrenheit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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There you go! You don't even have to get out of ground affect for awhile.
 
iamtheari said:
Al Mooney was 9’3” if he was a foot and he ran 650 lbs. He used to drive around in an ice cream truck covered in human skulls. His family crest is a picture of a barracuda eating Neal Armstrong. On Sundays, he would put on a white tie and tails and walk his pet cobra through the park on a leash. He named the cobra “Beverly”. He taught it how to fetch and dial a phone.
Click to expand...

... and that's why they call him, the Stig.
 
Kristin said:
The Comanches also have the advantage of not getting caught up in the Piper wing AD's that are ongoing. Completely different wing structure and much stronger.
Click to expand...
Yeap, basically the same wing as a Mooney. :D
 
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