Youtube Pilot and her dad perish in TN

[dmspilot]

Yes, a few of the videos have gone private, three that I know of. Maybe some of the people filmed in the videos have complained to YT that they are shown without their permission, even though that may not be actually true. She mentioned not filming people that didn't want to be filmed. Just a guess, but if people are complaining than the ones with just her and her father or ones where the subject can be seen acknowledging or playing up to the camera should remain.

Definitely more than three...all videos in the past 7 months are hidden. I counted seven from my history that are no longer up. I believe it's around a dozen or so videos total as there were plenty I didn't watch.

She mentioned not filming people that didn't want to be filmed. Just a guess, but if people are complaining than the ones with just her and her father or ones where the subject can be seen acknowledging or playing up to the camera should remain.

Doesn't look like they were targeting a specific person. The taken down videos show her flying with people that can still be seen in older videos.

I figured it was family taking them down at first. Someone on another site hinted they could be preparing for a lawsuit, e.g. against the aircraft or avionics manufacturers, and any videos showing her incompetence would hurt them. But now I wonder if it's the NTSB having them hidden since they might consider those videos part of an "active investigation," and I guess the older ones irrelevant.

 

[TrueCourse]

I've been trying to figure out if there was another switch to terminate the AP in addition to the OFF button on the AP control panel (besides Master or Avionics Master). I don't believe the breaker was easy to reach.

 

[Hang 4]

Could the timing of the private videos correspond to a change in instructors?

 

[Dana]

A family member or anybody with access to her computer would be able to access her youtube account, if she hadn't logged out or if the credentials were saved in her browser.

Or, a CFI that looked bad may have requested videos showing him be taken down.

 

[3393RP]

I've been trying to figure out if there was another switch to terminate the AP in addition to the OFF button on the AP control panel (besides Master or Avionics Master). I don't believe the breaker was easy to reach.

There was a small red pushbutton switch on the left side of the yoke.

 

[Albany Tom]

My bet is that is as simple as a family member that was tired of inappropriate comments on the videos. And I'm just guessing about the comments, no idea.

Many people have correctly stated that recovering from a nose low, trimmed down condition should be simple. It is. But...If she didn't figure out the trim part or direction quickly enough, maybe she thought she was fighting the auto pilot but was really fighting trim for example, or if she didn't know or remember to pull the throttle back and let it go past Vne, it could make recovery a lot harder. I'm not making excuses for the behavior, just trying to understand it better.

I had an instructor who would add "way off trim" to the unusual attitude recovery drills. No idea if that's normal or not. But it was interesting. The first time he did that there was some swearing, and it took a couple of seconds to figure out what was going on.

 

[rangerz]

I've been trying to figure out if there was another switch to terminate the AP in addition to the OFF button on the AP control panel (besides Master or Avionics Master). I don't believe the breaker was easy to reach.

AP disconnect right on the yoke. CO impairment should be top of mind. This was in VFR unresticted visibility conditions. If there wasn't the prior YouTube history everyone would be assuming CO poisoning. Couple that with known (via the videos) issues with the A/P and trimming and it seems very consistent with what would happen if the A/P was left unsupervised and in poor trim.

 

[jpwing]

I didn't find the comments on the now removed videos particularly inappropriate from a pilot's point of view. They were actually fairly tame considering the fact that in one video she lost her electrical and didn't notice her Garmin stack completely dark or the fact that neither the CFII nor her noticed they were 900' feet below the slide slope on an instrument approach and then kind of rolled their eyes when ATC asked if they needed assistance. But from a family's point of view, they probably found the comments harsh. Facts can be harsh.

 

[3393RP]

AP disconnect right on the yoke. CO impairment should be top of mind. This was in VFR unresticted visibility conditions. If there wasn't the prior YouTube history everyone would be assuming CO poisoning. Couple that with known (via the videos) issues with the A/P and trimming and it seems very consistent with what would happen if the A/P was left unsupervised and in poor trim.

I must disagree. The autopilot did have some sort of problem when the plane was purchased, but that had supposedly been corrected. There is ample video and FR24 evidence the person had no clear idea of the relationship of trim and throttle to level flight or how to properly operate the autopilot. The altitude excursions exceed hundreds of feet. The speed and altitude traces of the mishap flight aren't unusual, and they replicate previously recorded deviations.

In one video, in similar benign VFR conditions, she and the father stare at the A/P panel and mash its buttons as the aircraft climbs and approaches a stall. She belatedly notices, disconnects the evil device, and pushes the nose down. It's not a stretch to picture what could have happened if a similar situation occurred and the aircraft continued into a stall with significant nose down trim in place.

Based on observation of that and other videos, she would not have had the knowledge or skills to identify and correct the situation before control was irretrievably lost. The NTSB noted that recording devices, presumably video cameras, survived the crash and provided useable information. What they reveal will answer the unknown.

I don't say these things to pontificate or to be overly critical. It's more a sadness, as I feel in all such occurrences, that such a thing happened to two people whose lives had value and families that loved them.

 

[Jim K]

Watched Juan browns new video this evening where he goes through the preliminary. I was surprised that it said the tail surfaces were intact and movable. With the size of the crater they reported I figured the whole plane would be aluminum confetti. They reported the trim was set to 5 degrees down, which according to Juan is about halfway between natural and full nose down. With just two people in the front seats id imagine the cg was fairly far forward, so that probably correlates to the 230mph+ nose dive. Presumably the video will tell how it got to that position.

 

[BrianR]

I'm not convinced there was anything wrong with the autopilot. I have a fair number of hours in a Mooney with the Century 2000, same AP as the accident pilot's Debonair, although the plane I flew had electric trim, which hers reportedly did not. Lacking electric trim, the up/down buttons would serve only to change from ALT to ATT mode and would require the pilot to manually apply the appropriate trim (along with the proper power adjustments). The pilot clearly didn't grasp this at all, as evidenced by her video where she was repeatedly punching the up/down buttons and couldn't figure out why it had no effect, and assumed an autopilot malfunction. And, it was painfully clear she had no idea what the trim annunciation lights meant, apparently believing it was telling her the AP was trimming the airplane.

With her elementary stick and rudder skills, it is entirely conceivable the airplane was unable to maintain altitude due to failure to adjust power and trim, and either the AP disconnected, or she disconnected it, and got handed, while completely unaware, an airplane fully out of trim, with the resultant large pitch excursion. Now, that should have been entirely recoverable at 6500 feet on a clear VMC day with a pilot even marginally competent, but I suspect she was so startled and lacking awareness she fought the trim all the way to the ground, never realizing the issue.

Further, if one were to toss a bit of carbon monoxide into the cabin -- entirely possible, given an older airplane, cool weather, likely had the heat on -- that clearly could contribute to the confusion and failure to respond properly. Not to be morbid, but hopefully enough tissue could be recovered to rule this in or out.

In any event, very sad situation. I'd never heard of her before the crash, but after then watching a few of her videos, I can't say I'm entirely shocked this occurred.

 

[FlyingTiger]

actually brings up an interesting situation. Im sure "SHE" did not remove the videos and someone who had access did - or some family member. Which unless they had permission to do so - would be interesting. I know that Apple and Google have protections in place - that allow family members to gain access to said account but it takes a /lot/ of work to do so. And I doubt it can be done that quickly. And usually its not to make changes to the account - but to disable it and thats about it. So someone went in to the account to make said changes and it obviously wasnt her.

Most modern day estate planning give the executor specific authority to deal with social media.

 

[kmacht]

Awful lot of assumptions going on in here. Yes she was behind the airplane in many videos and yes she had autopilot issues but way too many of you are all too quick to just jump to that as the cause. How do you know her dad didn’t have a heart attack and slumped over blocking the controls? How do you know that there wasn’t a physical problem with the plane? Electrical fire? CO poisoning, etc. Too many of you just want to crucify her for the only reason that she posts YouTube videos. Is this how you want people to act if you perish in an airplane? Would you want your friends and family reading a similar thread about you?

 

[Anthem]

Most modern day estate planning give the executor specific authority to deal with social media.

Absolutely. But estate planning and executors are not in place with legal authority a week after decedent.

 

[eman1200]

….Is this how you want people to act if you perish in an airplane? …

No. This is how I’d want people to act BEFORE I auger it in (with or without unknowing passengers) due to my deficient skills.

 

[Dana]

Awful lot of assumptions going on in here. Yes she was behind the airplane in many videos and yes she had autopilot issues but way too many of you are all too quick to just jump to that as the cause. How do you know her dad didn’t have a heart attack and slumped over blocking the controls? How do you know that there wasn’t a physical problem with the plane? Electrical fire? CO poisoning, etc. Too many of you just want to crucify her for the only reason that she posts YouTube videos.

It's not just that she posted YouTube videos; it's that those videos show issues with her flying and/or her airplane that correlate with what appeared to happen on her final flight.

If the exact same unexplained crash had happened to, say, Stevie Triesenberg (another "pretty girl posting airplane vids", except hers show competent, professional flying), this conversation and the assumptions discussed would be very different.

 

[kmacht]

No. This is how I’d want people to act BEFORE I auger it in (with or without unknowing passengers) due to my deficient skills.

So are you browsing YouTube right now for others with marginal flying skills and telling them or are you actually only interested in post accident discussion where the facts aren’t known and the pilot isn’t around to defend themselves?

 

[kmacht]

It's not just that she posted YouTube videos; it's that those videos show issues with her flying and/or her airplane that correlate with what appeared to happen on her final flight.

If the exact same unexplained crash had happened to, say, Stevie Triesenberg (another "pretty girl posting airplane vids", except hers show competent, professional flying), this conversation and the assumptions discussed would be very different.

You have no way of knowing if any of her previous issues shown on youtube correlate at all to the accident. How do you know her dad didn’t have some sort of medical emergency or that there wasn’t an on board electrical fire or any of a hundred other causes? Instead people on this thread just want to assume it was incompetence knowing nothing about her other than what they saw on a few Internet videos. She was clearly competent enough to pass a check ride as well as subsequent BFRs and this being a day vfr flight I don’t see how you can make an assumption that it was caused by piloting skill and she just flew it into the ground. There are so many other things that could have and are more likely to have gone wrong but I guess it’s easier just to criticize someone who was willing to show her life to the rest of the world through youtube than it is to admit that bad things can happen to any pilot regardless of skill.

 

[eman1200]

So are you browsing YouTube right now for others with marginal flying skills and telling them or are you actually only interested in post accident discussion where the facts aren’t known and the pilot isn’t around to defend themselves?

your points are pretty boring, but to answer the postmortem question, the majority of the people being called out (both before, during and after their eventual demise) are the type of people who don't listen to the criticism before, and try to learn and better themselves for it (think Gerry Vagner who blames everyone else for all of his mistakes over and over in every video and in fact has to make separate videos or comments "defending" the criticism he receives instead of maybe learning a thing or two). I really don't think anyone has blatantly claimed her CLEAR lack of skills as the direct cause, but more of an obvious trend that everyone EXCEPT the youtuber can identify. so yes, I have commented on some youtubers videos, such as Gerry Vagner, about how their repeated dangerous trends will eventually kill them or an unsuspecting passenger, and I will continue to do so before and after their eventual demise. the 'before' comments are sincere in the hopes of preventing a situation like this. and finally, not a single person said the CAUSE of this was simply from her posting videos. the general consensus is the videos provide clear cut evidence of her poor airmanship. if you were actually paying attention, the focus of a lot of speculation, which is all we can do right now, is mostly on the autopilot.

 

[MauleSkinner]

She was clearly competent enough to pass a check ride as well as subsequent BFRs and this being a day vfr flight I don’t see how you can make an assumption that it was caused by piloting skill and she just flew it into the ground.

All a passed checkride means is that someone was competent in a specific set of tasks that day. Many, if not most, pilots seem to think that checkride day is where they should peak, and skills drop off rapidly after that. And how many BFRs do you think she took since she got her certificate last year?

You seem to be making assumptions that are at least as invalid as the assumptions you’re accusing others of making.

 

[GLMS_NC]

Awful lot of assumptions going on in here. Yes she was behind the airplane in many videos and yes she had autopilot issues but way too many of you are all too quick to just jump to that as the cause. How do you know her dad didn’t have a heart attack and slumped over blocking the controls? How do you know that there wasn’t a physical problem with the plane? Electrical fire? CO poisoning, etc. Too many of you just want to crucify her for the only reason that she posts YouTube videos. Is this how you want people to act if you perish in an airplane? Would you want your friends and family reading a similar thread about you?

Have you looked at the flight tracks from her prior flights? Forget all the comments made, her videos, and innuendo. In reviewing those what does this tell you? It tells me she was challenged in many areas.

 

[dbahn]

This may have been mentioned somewhere in this thread, but one feature of experienced pilots with good skills is the ability to avoid panic when things seem to unravel. From what I've gleaned from the discussions here, this pilot wasn't among that group.

 

[jpwing]

Have you looked at the flight tracks from her prior flights? Forget all the comments made, her videos, and innuendo. In reviewing those what does this tell you? It tells me she was challenged in many areas.

There was a video where she was flying in circles over the airport because the Garmin G430W was telling her to. I don't know this for certain but she seemed to lean toward the electronics doing the flying for her, and perhaps that's why she seemed so concerned about the autopilot.

She may have passed her checkride fine but as others mentioned, that means she did the minimums that one day. From what I could tell, there's no way she'd pass a checkride in a HP and/or Complex aircraft. I sometimes fear checkride passes are starting to get into the "everyone gets a trophy!" territory.

 

[172andyou]

You have no way of knowing if any of her previous issues shown on youtube correlate at all to the accident. How do you know her dad didn’t have some sort of medical emergency or that there wasn’t an on board electrical fire or any of a hundred other causes? Instead people on this thread just want to assume it was incompetence knowing nothing about her other than what they saw on a few Internet videos.

You are definitely the jury member the defense wants to have in the jury box. "Yes, the defendant spent the last seven months displaying a pattern of behavior that was concerning to many who watched them. Yes, the defendant displaying a pattern of behavior of denying facts, being unteachable and thus raising doubts about future behavior. Yes, the defendant was out of control for thirty minutes prior to the incident. But the jury has to consider that might have been something else that we have no evidence to support. The defense rests your honor."

 

[Dana]

You have no way of knowing if any of her previous issues shown on youtube correlate at all to the accident. How do you know her dad didn’t have some sort of medical emergency or that there wasn’t an on board electrical fire or any of a hundred other causes? Instead people on this thread just want to assume it was incompetence knowing nothing about her other than what they saw on a few Internet videos. She was clearly competent enough to pass a check ride as well as subsequent BFRs and this being a day vfr flight I don’t see how you can make an assumption that it was caused by piloting skill and she just flew it into the ground. There are so many other things that could have and are more likely to have gone wrong but I guess it’s easier just to criticize someone who was willing to show her life to the rest of the world through youtube than it is to admit that bad things can happen to any pilot regardless of skill.

Right, I don't have any way of knowing. Yes, bad things can happen to any pilot regardless of skill, though a better pilot is more likely to avoid them. But consider that her previous videos show large altitude and speed excursions that she didn't handle correctly, though they didn't culminate in a crash (then). On here last flight, the track showed similar large altitude and speed excursions, and this time they did culminate in a crash. Absent better information, it's the way to bet.

 

[jbDC9]

There was a video where she was flying in circles over the airport because the Garmin G430W was telling her to. I don't know this for certain but she seemed to lean toward the electronics doing the flying for her, and perhaps that's why she seemed so concerned about the autopilot.

That video of her aimlessly flying in circles just had me gobsmacked; she had no clue as to what was going on or where she was going. The concept of turning off the a/p and hand flying GPS direct never occurred to her... but she kept poking uselessly at buttons and griping about the 430/AP. She seemingly had no idea as to the general direction she should fly to her destination and how to get there. And then there was the video where there was too much comm chatter, so she turned down the 430 volume and accidentally turned it off, then had no idea how to turn it back on... just, wow. And why on earth did she post these videos of her incompetence and lack of basic airmanship? She just didn't know what she didn't know...

 

[cowman]

I've been quietly following this, not having much of anything to add that hasn't already been covered but I just saw the video of the prelim NTSB report and I have to confirm my understanding here. The weather was clear? I'd missed details on weather conditions and had just been assuming it was an IMC situation but it was CLEAR? And nothing was apparently wrong with the flight controls?

Am I correctly interpreting that this aircraft was just flown into the ground in clear weather? Is that right?
If so just... HOW? Even a student pilot on their first solo should be able to avoid that.

 

[flyingron]

I've been trying to figure out if there was another switch to terminate the AP in addition to the OFF button on the AP control panel (besides Master or Avionics Master). I don't believe the breaker was easy to reach.

There's a big button marked ON right on the controller that will turn it off if you push it. Most installations have a big red button that kills it as well. Then there's often a pullable breaker. In my case (not applicable to these folk), activating the electric trim kills it as well.

The REQUIRED (but often omitted) preflight test is to verify all of these, disconnect the autopilot, and leave you with free and clear controls. Even if it doesn't, the servos are designed so that you can overpower the autopilot if need be.

 

[francisco collazos]

I too find it hard to believe that she would fly a perfectly good plane straight into the ground on a cloudless sky. She did know how to disconnect the AP because I saw her do it by yanking on the yoke. The cherokee that I fly has one of these century AP and I am paranoid to use it. The first thing I learned was how to disconnect the thing. Red button, yanking on the yoke, pressing OFF, avionics master and there is a fuse to it as well. I too would not speculate too much until I have more facts. I think those cameras will hopefully give us those facts. This lady's flying has been dragged through the mud but being bad enough pilot to crash a perfectly good airplane is a bit of a stretch.

 

[darthanubis]

So many words used just to describe CFIT.

 

[GLMS_NC]

I've been quietly following this, not having much of anything to add that hasn't already been covered but I just saw the video of the prelim NTSB report and I have to confirm my understanding here. The weather was clear? I'd missed details on weather conditions and had just been assuming it was an IMC situation but it was CLEAR? And nothing was apparently wrong with the flight controls?

Am I correctly interpreting that this aircraft was just flown into the ground in clear weather? Is that right?
If so just... HOW? Even a student pilot on their first solo should be able to avoid that.

Well said! Add in she supposedly had 400 hours in her logbook… and was going after an instrument rating.

 

[darthanubis]

I've been quietly following this, not having much of anything to add that hasn't already been covered but I just saw the video of the prelim NTSB report and I have to confirm my understanding here. The weather was clear? I'd missed details on weather conditions and had just been assuming it was an IMC situation but it was CLEAR? And nothing was apparently wrong with the flight controls?

Am I correctly interpreting that this aircraft was just flown into the ground in clear weather? Is that right?
If so just... HOW? Even a student pilot on their first solo should be able to avoid that.

You said you’d been following?

The HOW was evidence in her flight tracks showing an inability to maintain level flight. As revealed in her numerous videos, she didn’t grasp the power pitch relationship as she tried numerous times to climb without power and at least on one go around with the flaps deployed.

She seemed to think that autopilot was the fix to her shortcoming in airmanship, hence her preoccupation with getting it to “work”. If she didn’t understand power and pitch relationship, she couldn’t understand the trim usage, revealed again in another video when she trimmed in the wrong direction.

With everything above as a given, all that was required on any given day was for her to improperly fight the autopilot with trim, AP disengaged, forcing her to manually fly the plane out of trim, trimmed five degrees nose down. Again, not understanding pitch/power, she didn’t appear to reduce throttle on the way down as the report indicates the speed she picked up in such a short amount of time.

CFIT.

 

[nauga]

Yes, the defendant was out of control for thirty minutes prior to the incident. But the jury has to consider that might have been something else that we have no evidence to support. The defense rests your honor."

What your analogy misses, as does much speculation, is that there is a wealth of evidence available, but you and others in this thread just don't have access to it. Refusing to acknowledge that and convicting someone based only on a fraction of what is known or knowable is a *prosecutor's* dream. This analogy is equally flawed, but the existence of data/evidence not currently known to POA is unquestionable.

Nauga
who wants to know but doesn't need to be the one who concludes

 

[Palmpilot]

It's not just that she posted YouTube videos; it's that those videos show issues with her flying and/or her airplane that correlate with what appeared to happen on her final flight.

If the exact same unexplained crash had happened to, say, Stevie Triesenberg (another "pretty girl posting airplane vids", except hers show competent, professional flying), this conversation and the assumptions discussed would be very different.

Amen to that. Another example is to compare the responses to Juan Browne's YT videos and those from DG. The former is generally accorded respect here, and the latter, not so much.

 

[dmspilot]

So many words used just to describe CFIT.

It's not CFIT.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It's not CFIT.

Correct. The airplane was obviously not under control.

 

[cowman]

You said you’d been following?

The HOW was evidence in her flight tracks showing an inability to maintain level flight. As revealed in her numerous videos, she didn’t grasp the power pitch relationship as she tried numerous times to climb without power and at least on one go around with the flaps deployed.

She seemed to think that autopilot was the fix to her shortcoming in airmanship, hence her preoccupation with getting it to “work”. If she didn’t understand power and pitch relationship, she couldn’t understand the trim usage, revealed again in another video when she trimmed in the wrong direction.

With everything above as a given, all that was required on any given day was for her to improperly fight the autopilot with trim, AP disengaged, forcing her to manually fly the plane out of trim, trimmed five degrees nose down. Again, not understanding pitch/power, she didn’t appear to reduce throttle on the way down as the report indicates the speed she picked up in such a short amount of time.

CFIT.

Right but inability to maintain altitude is a bit different than looking at terrain rapidly coming up in front of you and not being able to just pull back on the yoke. I saw the video where she was messing with the autopilot, not adjusting power/trim, and letting the aircraft get close to stall. She did finally click it off and take control.... far far later than she should have but she demonstrated she could.

What I saw on the prelim pointed to high airspeed close to impact was high so not a stall/spin. I've never flown a Debonair but even with too much down trim shouldn't she have been able to pull the nose level? If not then ok maybe this makes sense... I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around how, even with everything else wrong, she wouldn't have seen what was going on out the window and been able to do that much.

Maybe if the autopilot was still engaged and pitching down plus the excess downtrim together was too much for her to physically overcome? IDK that's the only thing I can think of.

 

[dmspilot]

Right but inability to maintain altitude is a bit different than looking at terrain rapidly coming up in front of you and not being able to just pull back on the yoke. I saw the video where she was messing with the autopilot, not adjusting power/trim, and letting the aircraft get close to stall. She did finally click it off and take control.... far far later than she should have but she demonstrated she could.

What I saw on the prelim pointed to high airspeed close to impact was high so not a stall/spin. I've never flown a Debonair but even with too much down trim shouldn't she have been able to pull the nose level? If not then ok maybe this makes sense... I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around how, even with everything else wrong, she wouldn't have seen what was going on out the window and been able to do that much.

Maybe if the autopilot was still engaged and pitching down plus the excess downtrim together was too much for her to physically overcome? IDK that's the only thing I can think of.

I thought the following comment, apparently from YouTube (but I don't know which video) and quoted on PPRUNE was interesting:
"In my opinion, its not the actual mis-trimmed control forces that can't be overcome as much as the extreme distraction and confusion such a situation causes. I believe pilots misdiagnose the problem as "I can't disengage the autopilot" when in reality the autopilot is disengaged. The remaining high control forces from an out of trim aircraft causing them to put all their efforts into finding a way to disengage the autopilot, which is of course fruitless."

 

[FPK1]

Awful lot of assumptions going on in here. Yes she was behind the airplane in many videos and yes she had autopilot issues but way too many of you are all too quick to just jump to that as the cause. How do you know her dad didn’t have a heart attack and slumped over blocking the controls? How do you know that there wasn’t a physical problem with the plane? Electrical fire? CO poisoning, etc. Too many of you just want to crucify her for the only reason that she posts YouTube videos. Is this how you want people to act if you perish in an airplane? Would you want your friends and family reading a similar thread about you?

Don't forget there were emergent radio transmissions from her and her father... Thus they appear to be conscious (unfortunately). RIP

 

[Palmpilot]

Although we can't know with certainty what the cause of the crash was at this point, one thing I can conclude is that if I had had an opportunity to ride along with her, at least one of the videos I've seen would have been sufficient to dissuade me from doing so. Maybe I would have if I were an instructor and had obtained her agreement in advance to my taking over the controls if needed.