Would you include this woman?

Dav8or

Dav8or

Final Approach
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Dave
If you were putting on an event to honor the achievements of women in aviation, would you include Hanna Reisch? She was quite a pioneer and skilled pilot back in her day with an impressive list of accomplishments. There's only one problem...

adolf-hitler-awards-hanna-reitsch-the-iron-cross-1941.jpg


The Canadians said "No way! eh..." What would you do?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/hanna-reitsch-lachute-women-aviation-1.4018754
 
EH it's their city I guess, and apparently she was/is a Nazi. I dunno, she's dead and she was the first helio pilot. I mean Charles Lindbergh was a Nazi sympathizer and look at how he's honored. :dunno:
 
First, I will mention that my father and his 4 brothers all served during WWII. Not sure why, but it seems like it it could be important.
Before they died, I had the privilege of meeting and having many conversations with Gunther Rall and Aldolf Galland. Dad also met Adolf Galland, and they got on famously.
I would have loved to have met Hanna Reisch to ask her about her exploits. So many questions about the ME-163.

She was the real deal. One of the best pilots of her day.
 
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I mean... I don't know her history but didn't you pretty much have to be a member of "the party" in Germany in that era to be a part of anything significant?

I think there were a lot of people wearing that uniform who didn't really agree with it or even fully understand how bad it was at the time. I think if they weren't part of any of the really nasty stuff they can probably get a pass after all these years.
 
^ Yup look at the scientists and engineers we "acquired" at the end of WWII that helped build the space program. Von Braun I believe was a member of the Nazi party and just about everything is named after him in Huntsville AL.
 
mscard88 said:
EH it's their city I guess, and apparently she was/is a Nazi. I dunno, she's dead and she was the first helio pilot. I mean Charles Lindbergh was a Nazi sympathizer and look at how he's honored. :dunno:
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Sympathizer, philanderer and anti-Semite. Fathered children with 3 German women in Germany. Must a been something special in the aviation fuel back then.

But at least he was financially responsible for his German families.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...gh-fathered-children-by-three-mistresses.html
 
I'm glad I don't have to make the decision!
 
cowman said:
I mean... I don't know her history but didn't you pretty much have to be a member of "the party" in Germany in that era to be a part of anything significant?

I think there were a lot of people wearing that uniform who didn't really agree with it or even fully understand how bad it was at the time. I think if they weren't part of any of the really nasty stuff they can probably get a pass after all these years.
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I guess the problem people have with her is that historians and biographers describe her as "unrepentant". Now I can see the use of the word unrepentant in two different lights. If she claimed that the Third Reich and Hitler were righteous and glorious and that she was sorry the Nazis failed because she believed in their policies and beliefs, then I would say she was unrepentant and I probably would not include her in the event, or at least with a huge asterisk beside her display!

On the other hand if she simply says that she is not in any way sorry that she joined the Nazi Party and that she did her best to serve the war effort and her country, then I would be understanding of that position. Like you said, if you wanted to do anything important with your life in Nazi Germany, you had to join the party. Most any ambitious person would have in those circumstances, particularly if they weren't aware of what was really going on.

Also, your country is your country, you either support it or you leave at some point during a crisis. Most do not want to leave as it is all they love and know.
 
Is the purpose of this to recognize people who made significant contributions to aviation, or is it to celebrate individuals' morals and values? If the former, Ms. Reitsch certainly qualifies. If the latter, then ... perhaps not. The whole "Hall of Fame" thing is murky in that regard. If a reprobate like Ty Cobb can be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, no reason Pete Rose shouldn't be there too.

As for Hanna Reitsch herself, there's no question she was, um ... "enthusiastic" ... about her work, and seemingly about those she worked for, as well.

(start at 25:30; more at 28:00)

(start at 7:35)

Shepherd said:
I had the privilege of meeting and having many conversations with Gunther Rall and Aldolf Galland. Dad also met Adolf Galland, and they got on famously.
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Check out Volumes 1 and 2 of The German Aces Speak, available on iBooks. Each volume contains lengthy interview-style essays by Luftwaffe aces, Galland and Rall among them. Their accounts of the flying and the battles are fascinating. They all professed disdain for Hitler, utter contempt for Göring, and ignorance at the time of their government's atrocities. They're all gone now, so it's left for history to judge.
 
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I read her book (Flying is my Life). The flying parts are interesting and the kind of thing any pilot would enjoy reading, but the rest (her unrepentant attitude toward Hitler and Naziism, remember the book was written years after the war, when the scale of Nazi atrocities had become well known) was disturbing.
 
“And what have we now in Germany? A land of bankers and car-makers. Even our great army has gone soft. Soldiers wear beards and question orders. I am not ashamed to say I believed in National Socialism. I still wear the Iron Cross with diamonds Hitler gave me. But today in all Germany you can't find a single person who voted Adolf Hitler into power... Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the real guilt we share — That we lost.”
― Hanna Reitsch
 
I don't understand why she can't be lauded for her achievements and derided for her political attitudes? Yuri Gagarin and Sputnik are honored to this day, and the Soviets murdered more people than the Germans.

(Not in any way minimizing the Holocaust.)
 
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Are you saying they are excluding her because she "played for the other team?"

Them Canadians....
 
Salty said:
“And what have we now in Germany? A land of bankers and car-makers. Even our great army has gone soft. Soldiers wear beards and question orders. I am not ashamed to say I believed in National Socialism. I still wear the Iron Cross with diamonds Hitler gave me. But today in all Germany you can't find a single person who voted Adolf Hitler into power... Many Germans feel guilty about the war. But they don't explain the real guilt we share — That we lost.”
― Hanna Reitsch
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Well that certainly fits the definition of unrepentant all right!
 
pmanton said:
Yes indeed, she deserves recognition for her flying abilities, not her politics.
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If you really don't want to "support" her politics just footnote everything with her name pointing it out. Much better than whitewashing history and pretending bad things never happened.

Plus you can use it as a woman's liberation poster too. "Women can be anything they want, including racist, socialist, nationalist douche bags"
 
Pilawt said:
If a reprobate like Ty Cobb can be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, no reason Pete Rose shouldn't be there too.
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Oh, you had to go all baseball on this. Cobb was certainly a reprobate, but Rose bet on baseball. Betting on the game has always meant the "death penalty". (Cobb was accused of either betting on and influencing the outcome of a game, but Judge Landis dropped the investigation when the player making the accusation didn't show for the inquest.)
 
Lachlan said:
Is she the "old taildragger" that Ted has been fantasizing about?
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The year is about right, but I think there a few other attributes that are not quite correct.
 
If Hitler had won the war guess what our heros of WWII would be called today.
 
It's all about the flying.
 
Agree with Billy. It's about the achievements in aviation, not the politics.

The Nazis were the first to build a flying jet aircraft - the ME-262. We have examples of them in our museums, even in the museum at the naval air station in Pensacola. The Nazis had some very significant aviation achievements.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The Nazis were the first to build a flying jet aircraft
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Yes.

the ME-262. .
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No. The Me-262 was not the first flying jet aircraft. Its first jet powered flight occured in 1942 (there was an earlier flight powered by a piston engine with propeller). The first jet was the Heinkel He-178 which first flew in 1939. The Caproni N1 first flew in 1940, and the Gloster E.28/39 (Whittle engine) first flew in 1941.

The Me-262 was the first jet to see operational service, however.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
jimhorner said:
No. The Me-262 was not the first flying jet aircraft. Its first jet powered flight occured in 1942 (there was an earlier flight powered by a piston engine with propeller). The first jet was the Heinkel He-178 which first flew in 1939. The Caproni N1 first flew in 1940, and the Gloster E.28/39 (Whittle engine) first flew in 1941.

The Me-262 was the first jet to see operational service, however.
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Thanks for the correction. Regardless, we have ME-262s in our museums.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
Agree with Billy. It's about the achievements in aviation, not the politics.

The Nazis were the first to build a flying jet aircraft - the ME-262. We have examples of them in our museums, even in the museum at the naval air station in Pensacola. The Nazis had some very significant aviation achievements.
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Museum is very different. A museum isn't a celebration - it's a preservation. The holocaust museum contains some of the Zyklon poison gas canisters. Which it should and it's appropriate - it's part of history. However, if you put a can of Zyklon on your company's parade float, that's NOT ok...

Same with SS uniforms, Nazi flags, fine in museum - not fine to wear on the street.

The primary purpose of this particular organization (iWOAW) doesn't appear to be the preservation and teaching of history, but to encourage more girls to join aviation. These women are presented to the girls as role models. Based on that it's fine to exclude some people based on character.
 
I dunno, if you're going to include an unrepentant Nazi into your honorific, you'd better have a pretty good explanation for the myriad folks you are going to vehemently pi$$ off. Nazis aren't too terribly popular in this part of the world. Sounds like more trouble than its worth to me.
 
mscard88 said:
^ Yup look at the scientists and engineers we "acquired" at the end of WWII that helped build the space program. Von Braun I believe was a member of the Nazi party and just about everything is named after him in Huntsville AL.
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I hate people withholding facts and history from me because of an assumption I will be offended or a presumption that I will somehow be contaminated by exposure to information about a person viewed as evil. That's thought control and I hate it. I don't need others to censor historical information from me for any reason. Give me all the facts about all the trailblazers in aviation (or whatever) and leave me to decide to hate the ones who were on the "wrong" side.
 
Rushie said:
I hate people withholding facts and history from me because of an assumption I will be offended or a presumption that I will somehow be contaminated by exposure to information about a person viewed as evil. That's thought control and I hate it. I don't need others to censor historical information from me for any reason. Give me all the facts about all the trailblazers in aviation (or whatever) and leave me to decide to hate the ones who were on the "wrong" side.
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In a museum, sure. But if you're actively honoring someone, you're holding them up as an example to others. Not such a good thing to do with an unrepentant Nazi.
 
steingar said:
In a museum, sure. But if you're actively honoring someone, you're holding them up as an example to others. Not such a good thing to do with an unrepentant Nazi.
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Then they are not honoring women in aviation. They are honoring some women in aviation. Only women of whose political opinions they approve. She was an unrepentant National Socialist (and if you know me at all you know I despise that particular ideology). I also despise communism, but I would have no problem honoring an Olympic swimmer from the Soviet Union for his swimming ability, not his politics.

If you are honoring women in aviation for their aviating and not their political opinions, don't exclude any. Otherwise you are distorting history.
 
Rushie said:
Then they are not honoring women in aviation. They are honoring some women in aviation. ... Otherwise you are distorting history.
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This wasn't an event that was created for the purpose of learning history. This was their agenda (this actually happened back in March already):
  • Come to the Lachute Airport for a day of aviation discovery for girls and women and all the family.
    • Go on a free flight (restricted to girls of all ages who pre-registered to fly)
    • Try some simulators
    • Visit Mirabel Tower and Nolinor Aviation
    • Meet female staff of company like Air Canada, CQFA, ETS, EMAM, RCAF, NavCanada at their company booth
    • Learn about aviation with fun games
    • Share some women pilots´ one of a kind experience about flying helicopters.
And this is who it was about:

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They are just trying to inspire girls to think about a career in aviation by showing: "Here's some other women who did it". It doesn't need to be a complete list of all women in aviation ever. Neither does it even need to be the best or most outstanding women. Just a few cool ones.
 
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