Would you include this woman?

We trained Osama, we made Gaddafi and Sadam then removed them just to let "terrorists" move in because.... yeah no one could see that comming, our screwing around over there has probably been the best recruitment tool for terrorists, we make all the best power vacuum opportunities that give terrorist groups real power, we make arms deals with people who toss gays off roofs and preform female genital mutilaition on young girls, yeah, we are about as two faced as you can get.

All while the bud light gargling over weight fools at home just go along with anything the government says, we salute a flag and pledge our blind allegiance while the TSA feels up the wife and the fed sends our sons to be killed in a war that no one, aside from the millitary industrial complex, wants or really thinks makes us safe.


Long and short, we've done more for terrorists than Afghanistan even could have done, and the "war on terror" yeah we lost that ****, all the idiots of my once great nation decided to change their way of life, give up their freedoms to the government, Americans forgot what it is to be American, and in that sense we really can't point a finger and any other nation in judgement, because we did this to ourselves, it wasn't a bearded brown dude from half a world away, it was Todd and Tammy from mainstreet.


So if that thought process makes me sound like a middle school kid, y'all need to go back to middle school lol
 
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James331 said:
We trained Osama, we made Gaddafi and Sadam then removed them just to let "terrorists" move in because.... yeah no one could see that comming, our screwing around over there has probably been the best recruitment tool for terrorists, we make all the best power vacuum opportunities that give terrorist groups real power, we make arms deals with people who toss gays off roofs and preform female genital mutilaition on young girls, yeah, we are about as two faced as you can get.

All while the bud light gargling over weight fools at home just go along with anything the government says, we salute a flag and pledge our blind allegiance while the TSA feels up the wife and the fed sends our sons to be killed in a war that no one, aside from the millitary industrial complex, wants or really thinks makes us safe.


Long and short, we've done more for terrorists than Afghanistan even could have done, and the "war on terror" yeah we lost that ****, all the idiots of my once great nation decided to change their way of life, give up their freedoms to the government, Americans forgot what it is to be American, and in that sense we really can't point a finger and any other batik in judgement, becuse we did this to ourselves, it wasn't a bearded brown dude from half a world away, it was Todd and Tammy from mainstreet.


So if that thought process makes me sound like a middle school kid, y'all need to go back to middle school lol
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James, you're quite the Moral Crusader. Do your Crusades take you anywhere other than the internet?
 
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Cooter said:
James, you're quite the Moral Crusader. Do your Crusades take you anywhere other than the internet?
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Yes, I do try to be the change I want to see in the world, I have taken jobs that paid a little less but made a better difference, from being a volunteer firefighter the second I was old enough, before I was even old enough to drink, to understanding and exercising my rights, and onto to the job I do today, but that's not as important as standing up for our rights, and speaking loud and proud of our rights as well as holding our government accountable and calling them out on their BS, something more Americans should do.

Stop the insane hero worship of the federal government and anyone who wears a uniform, we are not in a good place right now and we stand on the precipice, looking down at tyranny yet again in our history, America needs to step back from that dangerous ledge.
 
James331 said:
Yes, I do try to be the change I want to see in the world, I have taken jobs that paid a little less but made a better difference, from being a volunteer firefighter the second I was old enough, before I was even old enough to drink, to understanding and exercising my rights, and onto to the job I do today, but that's not as important as standing up for our rights, and speaking loud and proud of our rights as well as holding our government accountable and calling them out on their BS, something more Americans should do.

Stop the insane hero worship of the federal government and anyone who wears a uniform, we are not in a good place right now and we stand on the precipice, looking down at tyranny yet again in our history, America needs to step back from that dangerous ledge.
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Part of your problem is that you've labeled anything that differs from your opinion as hero worship. I have plenty of gripes about how my tax dollars are spent and I don't think that the troops are heroes. But you come across like something of a fire and brimstone street preacher. Outrage doesn't change many people's opinions. Well thought out and articulated positions would serve you much better.

Is there anything good in our govt or is it corrupted to the point that no good comes from it?
 
Cooter said:
Part of your problem is that you've labeled anything that differs from your opinion as hero worship. I have plenty of gripes about how my tax dollars are spent and I don't think that the troops are heroes. But you come across like something of a fire and brimstone street preacher. Outrage doesn't change many people's opinions. Well thought out and articulated positions would serve you much better.

Is there anything good in our govt or is it corrupted to the point that no good comes from it?
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For sure, and that's why I didn't scream "America sucks" or go stomp on a flag, or any of that type of stupid stuff you see kids and childish adults doing, I actually cited facts that backed up my points.

That said I do speak with some passion, if you don't have passion for your opinion, you probably don't have much of an opinion IMO

Of course there is some good, I think the USPS, FAA and many local state run branches such as some forestry agencies are overall good, but there is much that needs a MAJOR overhaul.
 
I think we give ourselves way too much credit for shaping ourselves. I'd like to believe if I were born in Nazi Germany, or in a radical Muslim environment, that I would risk my life, and the life of my loved ones, and renounce. I can't judge someone when I'm not is their shoes and weren't raised in their home.

I by no means give someone a pass for despicable behavior, but evil doesn't occur in a vacuum.
 
Nor does evil happen overnight
 
Just missing any real perspective, and sense of proportion in this James - not ragging on you, Bro, but your expectations are myopic; no human endeavor has been managed with perfect justice, not since more than two of us teamed up on anything. America effs up sometimes; I hope/hope you perceive that the net effect of our existence is orders of magnitude more positive than negative?

Yeah, we were horrid to the native peoples, burned too much carbon fuel, and eat fatty food - we also launched the Marshall plan, were the principals in the defeat of imperialism, colonialism, fascism, and communism (I might have missed an ism or two), and advanced more humanitarian efforts than all the empires that came before us. We've done real, real good, by any historical standard

So, just my opinion, and I could be wrong. . .but the world would be in another dark age if we'd all stayed home in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. Have we muddled through with less than visionary action in the middle east? Yeah. So what? The conclusion there hasn't been reached yet, either. People mostly made the best call they could, and mostly without hidden, star-chamber agendas. Sentiment and moral compasses don't all register or point in the same direction - Guess what? Economics are/are legitimate foreign policy considerations; might not sit well with your moral philosophy, but you aren't sitting alone, either.

Point is, it's easy as pie to zoom in on individual foul-ups, or use 20-20 hindsight to point out bad calls. Consider some of the very, very good calls, too; there have been a lot of them over the last couple hundred years.
 
Cooter said:
Socialism isn't an ideology? I'm not sure I know how to interact with this other than to say you need to look at the history of last century.
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Well, let me help you with what I wrote. I'm not talking about socialism, I'm talking about progress. Human progress. No "isms" attached. In my view, progress is not an ideology. I'm trying to refute this ridiculous idea that there is a genetic defect that causes some humans to want progress and a desire to make the world and society a better place to live in while others with a "normal" genetic code do not want progress. I personally think this idea is one of the stupidest theories I've heard in a long time.
 
Palmpilot said:
I would never claim that the U.S. is above reproach in its conduct of foreign policy, but what's that got to do with whether Afghanistan's former government harbored and protected the organization that planned and ordered the 9/11 attacks? :confused2:
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There was no Afghan government back then. It was a failed country with nothing but warlords ruling over fiefdoms and constant conflict. Nobody had control over the area that was known as Afghanistan. It is this sort of chaotic "no man's land" where terrorist organizations like to set up camp. That's one of the reason's we went there, to set up a government and try to make it a proper country that you could hold accountable and could potentially join the rest of the world. Make it the kind of place where terrorists weren't welcome. Unfortunately we have been unable to set up anything that is sustainable. When we leave, it will go back to chaos.
 
Dav8or said:
Well, let me help you with what I wrote. I'm not talking about socialism, I'm talking about progress. Human progress. No "isms" attached. In my view, progress is not an ideology. I'm trying to refute this ridiculous idea that there is a genetic defect that causes some humans to want progress and a desire to make the world and society a better place to live in while others with a "normal" genetic code do not want progress. I personally think this idea is one of the stupidest theories I've heard in a long time.
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I understand what you're saying, and I wont try to defend a genetic argument for socialism. But I don't think you'd like my answer for it much better! ;) So I'll just let that be.

Only point I'll make is that historically belief in the progress of mankind has been an "ism". I'm not saying it necessarily is with you, but it has been for others. Of course we'd have to define what we even mean by progress. I'm not against progress in general, but you and I would probably disagree about what we believe can be accomplished through progress.
 
Sundancer said:
Point is, it's easy as pie to zoom in on individual foul-ups, or use 20-20 hindsight to point out bad calls. Consider some of the very, very good calls, too; there have been a lot of them over the last couple hundred years.
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I think he is looking at the good and the bad and his point is, since about the time of the Marshall Plan, our foreign policy has been pretty poor. We have been practicing "America first!" ever since WWII an projecting our power to favor our interests at the expense of people living in other parts of the world. Those kinds of actions have led us to where we are now, millions upon millions of people across the globe hating us. Some willing to kill themselves just to get our attention. The threat of nuclear war with thousands of people dying in a flash and many multiple of that dying in agony over months and years is again a very real possibility. And our energy policy...

Anyhow, we're #1 for now... We all know the communist Chinese have outclassed us by getting us to defeat ourselves with our own greed. The "victory" we celebrate over the USSR, completely pales in comparison. They are crushing us with trade and obtaining the technology to defeat our own armies by making deals with us. No shots required. We really should be making friends with all the other countries to counter them, not ****ing off everybody off.
 
Not a point of view that bears close scrutiny, but that's just my opinion. I'd say countries don't make friends, for one thing - no such thing at the international level. The Chinese per capita income, and productivity rates are way, way behind western economies; and they have their own internal ethnic troubles brewing. And if they don't get their systemic corruption under control. . .

I think milions upon millions of people would hate us, regardless. No one liked the NY Yankees, either. Except New Yorkers, of course. Probably a billion or so more don't give us a second thought, most days.
 
Cooter said:
Only point I'll make is that historically belief in the progress of mankind has been an "ism".
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That doesn't seem like a very meaningful observation, given that socialism, capitalism, and conservatism are all "isms."
 
Palmpilot said:
That doesn't seem like a very meaningful observation, given that socialism, capitalism, and conservatism are all "isms."
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I was responding to the statement below. It seems then that you agree with me, that belief in progress is an ideology.
Dav8or said:
I'm talking about progress. Human progress. No "isms" attached. In my view, progress is not an ideology.
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I haven't thought about it enough to have an opinion one way or the other.
 
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