Would you choose to ditch a fixed gear in water?

Things happen fast once you hit the water. there was a man who landed his plane on floats with the wheels down. The airplane flipped over as soon as it hit the water. The next thing he knows he is treading water. Problem, he left his 8 year old boy strapped in the seat. The little boy drown. This happened maybe four years ago. The man kept saying. I have no idea why i did not save my son.
 
I have my spot picked before the engine ever goes silent. I fly from one landing spot to the next. Once I over fly this spot I fly to the next. But again I ask. How many have had an engine out? Have a few and you will fly like this too.
That's terrific if you can fly from emergency landing spot to emergency landing spot, but that's not usually practical.
And yes, always having a place in mind you will land even when all is well does expedite the process.

To answer your question... I have had one partial loss of power in a C152, and one engine failure (shut down before complete failure) in a twin.
But, I don't see why that's important.
 
Things happen fast and are dangerous no matter what. The stats say water landings are not anymore more risky than landing in a field regardless of anecdotes.

Would his 8 year old son of survived a crash into 75 foot pines? Maybe, maybe not.

If I've got a viable field or road, that's the first option. But if it's trees or rocks, you owe it to you and your passengers to consider water as the probabilities are very much in your favor. Kids in child seats may change that calculation depending on what body of water it is but you think about how you'll handle that before you go.
 
They say landing in the tree's is not a bad option and I would choose this over water any day. They say the tree's can absorb some of the impact. IMHO the tree's would be my first option over water. You may never get out of the airplane once in the water.
 
They say landing in the tree's is not a bad option and I would choose this over water any day. They say the tree's can absorb some of the impact. IMHO the tree's would be my first option over water. You may never get out of the airplane once in the water.

I'm not picking on you, but "they say" ain't data. Avweb did a report on the risks of ditching (using actual ditching reports) and came to the conclusion (as I remember) that most airplanes don't flip, and if you keep your wits about you, chances of surviving a ditching are pretty darned good. Personally, I've seen/read too many accident reports of GA aircraft straining themselves down through trees with resultant fatalities. I would choose water over trees.
 
We must also remember. Depending on the body of water, we go down on the food chain once in the water. This could be a pond, stream, lake or river. I all depends on where you live. But to all those that say go for water. You go for it. I now have one more question I will ask another pilot before I fly with them. If over water and you have farm land or a road will you land in the water. If they even think about the water I will stay on the ground thank you very much.

Tony
 
We must also remember. Depending on the body of water, we go down on the food chain once in the water. This could be a pond, stream, lake or river. I all depends on where you live. But to all those that say go for water. You go for it. I now have one more question I will ask another pilot before I fly with them. If over water and you have farm land or a road will you land in the water. If they even think about the water I will stay on the ground thank you very much.

Tony
I do realize the OP specified fixed gear, but you did not.

Do you think Sully made a good decision?? What if there was an open field? Do you think he should have headed toward it?
 
We must also remember. Depending on the body of water, we go down on the food chain once in the water. This could be a pond, stream, lake or river. I all depends on where you live. But to all those that say go for water. You go for it. I now have one more question I will ask another pilot before I fly with them. If over water and you have farm land or a road will you land in the water. If they even think about the water I will stay on the ground thank you very much.

Tony

Your call on where to land, but you're down the food chain pretty much everywhere you go. I'll worry about the lions, tigers, bears, sharks, alligators, piranha's, snakes, etc. once I've survived the initial crash landing. I'm currently undefeated against mother nature's predators.
 
During my PPL checkride, the DPE made a point to emphasize that if I ever had to make a forced landing and a large-enough body of water was nearby, to consider ditching in the water instead of aiming for a road or a field. His logic was that you could land straight into the wind, and you don't often find power lines or other obstructions across a pond or lake, and (depending on the lake), boats would be less common than cars on a road.

I didn't argue with him at the time, but I can see two big downsides to a water ditching. Regardless of aircraft, even if there are no injuries to the occupants, you've still got to get out of the plane and then out of the water to dry ground to be safe. In my sedentary middle-age condition, I'd have a tough time swimming a lap in a neighborhood pool; I'm not confident I (or other passengers) could make the swim successfully. If anyone's injured in the event, that becomes even harder.

And for a fixed gear specifically, the chances of a nose-over seem pretty huge. A belly landing in a retract might be fairly gentle if conditions are right, but I expect a fixed gear ditch is going to be traumatic almost every time.

So I've always discounted the idea of ditching, if I have an option for dry land instead.

Thoughts?
Go do the research yourself on ditchings in the NTSB database. They are surprisingly survivable, even in fixed gear airplanes, provided you maintain control of the aircraft going in.

Yes, fixed gear airplanes often (but not always) end up upside down, but again, surprisingly survivable if under control and proper restraints used.

You could put it down on the beach/shoreline, but there are an unfortunate number of cases where innocent bystanders were killed by an airplane landing on a beach. That is s tough pill to swallow. Living on while knowing you inadvertently killled someone and being constantly reminded of that while the lawsuits rage on.

There is no hard and fast answer. You really have to consider the options at the time and make the decision.

Generally speaking though, my preference would be to ditch in the water next to the beach. Best balance of avoiding unnecessary casualties and having assistance getting out.
 
We must also remember. Depending on the body of water, we go down on the food chain once in the water. This could be a pond, stream, lake or river. I all depends on where you live. But to all those that say go for water. You go for it. I now have one more question I will ask another pilot before I fly with them. If over water and you have farm land or a road will you land in the water. If they even think about the water I will stay on the ground thank you very much.

Tony
2017-07-08_9303_Sharks.jpg

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I have my spot picked before the engine ever goes silent. I fly from one landing spot to the next. Once I over fly this spot I fly to the next. But again I ask. How many have had an engine out? Have a few and you will fly like this too.

I have. Not counting twins that were precautionary shut downs because I had that option. Over water within gliding distance to land. Only problem, 60-70 foot trees on the land. Water temperature survivable for about 15 minutes. 20 of rocky shore between the two. I saw an old over grown clear cut with 10-20 foot trees and headed for that. Never stopped trouble shooting and found that if I held the key in a certain position the engine would run.

Key (mag switch) had an internal short.
 
"Imma" take a shot in the dark and say some of the people on here are afraid of water and/or don't know how to swim.

Not real sure who that would be. I learned to swim at age 3 and swim like a fish. But I don't breath like a fish.
 
Your call on where to land, but you're down the food chain pretty much everywhere you go. I'll worry about the lions, tigers, bears, sharks, alligators, piranha's, snakes, etc. once I've survived the initial crash landing. I'm currently undefeated against mother nature's predators.

I have been walking this earth for almost 60 years never eaten by a lion, tiger or beer and I lived in beer country for a few years. I wonder how that would have worked if I spent 60 years in the ocean? I bet i would have already been fish food.
 
I have been walking this earth for almost 60 years never eaten by a lion, tiger or beer and I lived in beer country for a few years.

.

What's it like living in beer country? Are there mostly feral beers or are there some domesticated beers? Are the feral beers free?

How about the selection? I prefer the light polar beers, the brown and black beers are too heavy for my taste.

This sounds like a place I would like to visit.
 
Post #2

Your instructor was an idiot. If you have an option never go for water go for land. What a bone head instructor. Amazes me some try to instruct at all. Problem they believe they know what they are talking about.


Tony

Why are you jumping on the instructor? The OP said it was his DPE that came up with this suggestion. Don't be so quick to (mis)place blame.
 
What landing spot would you pick!?!

The Answer:

Whichever place you choose that limits damage to yourself, passengers, people and things on the ground. If you did that successfully then it was the best option!
 
A few people actually posted the cirrus parachute is a nice feature for this reason and no one gave them crap? Is POA getting soft?

Next thing I'll see is a AOA indicator would be a great feature and people will agree!
 
An angle of attack indicator wound be a great thing to have. A blue donut and a cup of coffee might be good too.
 
During my PPL checkride, the DPE made a point to emphasize that if I ever had to make a forced landing and a large-enough body of water was nearby, to consider ditching in the water instead of aiming for a road or a field. His logic was that you could land straight into the wind, and you don't often find power lines or other obstructions across a pond or lake, and (depending on the lake), boats would be less common than cars on a road.

I didn't argue with him at the time, but I can see two big downsides to a water ditching. Regardless of aircraft, even if there are no injuries to the occupants, you've still got to get out of the plane and then out of the water to dry ground to be safe. In my sedentary middle-age condition, I'd have a tough time swimming a lap in a neighborhood pool; I'm not confident I (or other passengers) could make the swim successfully. If anyone's injured in the event, that becomes even harder.

And for a fixed gear specifically, the chances of a nose-over seem pretty huge. A belly landing in a retract might be fairly gentle if conditions are right, but I expect a fixed gear ditch is going to be traumatic almost every time.

So I've always discounted the idea of ditching, if I have an option for dry land instead.

Thoughts?

The DPE was right. It's the hard stop that gets you. Water has a much lower chance of having any obstructions that cause you to lose control during the stop, and will bring you to that stop quickly but not in an injury-inducing fashion if it's done right.

The chances of nose-over in fixed gear are small, and I've even seen some research suggesting that in a retract it's better to leave the gear down. The landing gear may be able to skim the water early in the "landing roll".

I think this misconception comes from the videos people always see of the amphib floatplanes landing with the gear down and flipping. You have to keep in mind, those wheels are easily 3-5 times farther from the CG than normal fixed gear wheels are, so the force moments are completely different.

Also, remember that in a retract, your prop is going to be the first thing to hit the water - it's not like you're going to suddenly transition to waterski mode.

Your instructor was an idiot. If you have an option never go for water go for land. What a bone head instructor. Amazes me some try to instruct at all. Problem they believe they know what they are talking about.

Says the guy who didn't even have enough reading comprehension to see that it wasn't even his instructor. :rolleyes:

Lets see... Land with high probability of 0 damage to airplane or people... or... Land with 100% probability of total loss of the aircraft and high risk of injury or drowning... hmmm ... that's a hard one...

If you have a land-based option with a high probability of 0 damage to airplane or people, then take it. Yes, the ditching will result in the insurance company buying you a new plane, but the risk of injury is very low, and risk of drowning is also very low if you know how to swim. Or float. I know that all I have to do to stay alive in water is be able to point my face toward the sky, and I'll float enough to keep my mouth and nose out of the water.

Over a place like Michigan where there are lots of trees, I would opt for a lake over tall trees. Water temperature plays a factor too of course.

Water temperature is probably the biggest factor here. If you put it down in one of the great lakes, best to do so in water that's only knee deep. Their temperature is at its highest in October, but even then it's fairly chilly. In April, you have 10-15 minutes until you're worthless or dead.

The water would be my absolute last case option.. as in, I'm over mountains or a densely populated urban area / city

I would take tall trees any day over a lake. In a Skyhawk or Archer you're probably going 45 knots or so if you stall it into the tops of trees.. I bet there is a pretty good chance of surviving that.

OK, let's think this through.

Stall into the treetops, at which point you're going 45 knots forward and you'll be accelerating downward until you hit the ground. If you're really lucky, the trees may slow some of your forward momentum, but probably not much of your vertical momentum. Imagine a head-on collision with a brick wall AND falling off the roof of a three-story house - AT THE SAME TIME!

Now, imagine a water landing. You've properly briefed your passenger so they've got the door open prior to landing. There is no drop at all in the landing, and while you slow down quickly, it's not a sudden stop. In a low wing, if there's a boat nearby, you might not even get wet! (Planes can float for ~10 min if they're ditched relatively intact.)

I can tell you which one I'd take.

On the water though... let's say you don't flip, don't get trapped inside, and don't immediately drown.. then what? Now you're in the middle of a lake.. how many people could swim 1, 2, 3 miles to shore fully clothed with jeans and sneakers.

Most ditchings don't involve flipping, and you're no more likely to be trapped inside - In either case, you want a door open prior to impact. And drowning doesn't happen "immediately."

Plus, when you make this choice, you shouldn't ditch "in the middle of a lake." Ditch near the shoreline. Parallel it if you can. You might even be able to walk to shore.

At least if you crash on land and survive you can make a shelter, start a fire, have some materials from the plane's wreckage.. and hike and possibly maybe get a cell signal

Except you broke both legs in the crash/fall from treetop height and can't even run from the forest fire you started. ;)

Things happen fast once you hit the water. there was a man who landed his plane on floats with the wheels down. The airplane flipped over as soon as it hit the water. The next thing he knows he is treading water. Problem, he left his 8 year old boy strapped in the seat. The little boy drown. This happened maybe four years ago. The man kept saying. I have no idea why i did not save my son.

Floatplane with wheels down is a completely different story. That's gonna flip every time due to the 3-5x higher moment arm of the wheels around the plane's CG.
 
Planes have been landed on roads and fields, fixed and taken back off from said roads or fields, don't recall any wheel planes ditched in water that took back off from said landing site
 
If you have a land-based option with a high probability of 0 damage to airplane or people, then take it. Yes, the ditching will result in the insurance company buying you a new plane, but the risk of injury is very low, and risk of drowning is also very low if you know how to swim. Or float. I know that all I have to do to stay alive in water is be able to point my face toward the sky, and I'll float enough to keep my mouth and nose out of the water.

My understanding is that a Fixed gear airplane will almost always flip over... And if you've never done that, say in some kind of dunk training, it can be very disorienting.... It then comes down to how long you can hold your breath and whether or not you can get the doors open ( if you hadn't pre-unlatched them )....if you're even still conscious. I don't think the odds are as good as you imply... And given the choice of floating around for what could be hours waiting for rescue, as the sharks circle, as opposed to sitting on a tree-stump or rock, waiting for the sheriff to arrive... I'll still take the latter option, thank-you! Also the OP's question was whether to choose a water landing over another option. That means you decide to land in the water when another option is available... I'm sorry, but that is just plain stupid!
 
Planes have been landed on roads and fields, fixed and taken back off from said roads or fields, don't recall any wheel planes ditched in water that took back off from said landing site
With the option of a road with no power lines or a plowed field, I'd take those options too. But I wouldn't take tall trees unless there was no other option. Kent is right, if my only other option is aiming my wings for trees and I can land close to shore or the water temperature is not in the quick hypothermia range, I'm going for the water. Out here there are many places where a pond* or lake really is the best option.

*In VT, a "pond" is usually a decent-sized small lake. Baker and Berlin Ponds, near where I live, would be ideal ditching spots (except that if you can make Berlin Pond, there's a good chance you can make KMPV too).
 
My understanding is that a Fixed gear airplane will almost always flip over... And if you've never done that, say in some kind of dunk training, it can be very disorienting.... It then comes down to how long you can hold your breath and whether or not you can get the doors open ( if you hadn't pre-unlatched them )....if you're even still conscious. I don't think the odds are as good as you imply... And given the choice of floating around for what could be hours waiting for rescue, as the sharks circle, as opposed to sitting on a tree-stump or rock, waiting for the sheriff to arrive... I'll still take the latter option, thank-you! Also the OP's question was whether to choose a water landing over another option. That means you decide to land in the water when another option is available... I'm sorry, but that is just plain stupid!
If you're floating around for hours as the sharks circle, chances are you really didn't have much choice. I don't think anyone is suggesting that ditching in the open ocean is a good option. If it's your only one, then it really isn't your day, or you took a gamble and lost.

I don't know the probability of a fixed gear airplane flipping over - would be good to see a study on that.
 
If you're floating around for hours as the sharks circle, chances are you really didn't have much choice. I don't think anyone is suggesting that ditching in the open ocean is a good option. If it's your only one, then it really isn't your day, or you took a gamble and lost.

Man you can't to tongue-in-cheek around here can you? The point is...as I said... CHOOSING water over land "because it is a better choice" is the topic... IT IS NOT!
 
If you're floating around for hours as the sharks circle, chances are you really didn't have much choice. I don't think anyone is suggesting that ditching in the open ocean is a good option. If it's your only one, then it really isn't your day, or you took a gamble and lost.

Man you can't to tongue-in-cheek around here can you? The point is...as I said... CHOOSING water over land "because it is a better choice" is the topic... IT IS NOT!
In context, your comment seemed to be serious. :dunno:

And I still say, it really depends, on the temperature of the water (mostly) and what is on the land. If it's rough rocks or steep slopes, or lots of people or tall trees, water may well be the better option.
 
There are so many variables how can anybody state flatly either water is better or land is better? (Other than to argue, which does seem to be the popular pastime around here.) Water with ice floating in it? No thanks. Bunch of rocky cliffs? No thanks. 100 foot plus tall trees? No thanks. Smooth empty golf course? Sure. Nice road? OK. Crowded beach? No thanks. Empty beach? Sure. Caribbean ocean (i.e. warm water) next to an island? OK. Florida lake near shore? Probably. Every situation (terrain condition, plane capabilities and pilot skills) is different. Think it through ahead of time.

I will say the one fixed gear into water I do know of personally (I flew the airplane a bunch of hours after it was fished out and repaired) didn't total the airplane or hurt the pilot.(C-172 stalled into lake on final approach into KORL.)

John
 
There are so many variables how can anybody state flatly either water is better or land is better? (Other than to argue, which does seem to be the popular pastime around here.)
Well, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Plenty of amateur 'experts' who like to trash professionals and throw around absolutes.
 
I'm curious why so many comments about avoiding tall trees. Tree tops are pretty forgiving shock absorbers. What do you "professional" internet experts say to that?
 
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If I learned one think in the dunk training course it's that I never want to have to egress underwater for real. But, as someone else stated, survival rates are actually pretty high for water ditching, so I won't discount it as an option if I'm ever in a place to decide.
 
I'm curious why so many comments about avoiding tall trees. Tree tops are pretty forgiving shock absorbers. What do you "professional" internet experts say to that?
All I can speak for is my own thinking, I'm not a professional "expert" on crashing, never proclaimed myself as such, and I don't know of anyone on this thread who has. But to me, "tall" trees implies that you are still some distance above the ground when you've sheared off the wings (what I've read as the recommended outcome) and are now a projectile. So you've reduced your forward momentum but are still on a collision course with either the ground, or more trees, or both.

Of course it doesn't necessarily HAVE to go down that way (no pun), but once you've impacted trees you have little to no control over what happens afterward, if you aren't safely stopped by the initial impact.
 
Sheared off the wings? I think the normal advice is to perform a full stall landing into the treetops. I've seen a few "after" scenes and not one has had a wing sheared off.

Here's a real world story. This pilot didn't have options. His 180 took out a tree and a light pole before it hit the house. Look at the damage to the house! The wings are still
attached and the pilot walked away.
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2017/07/09/float-plane-crashes-into-house-near-lake-hood/
 
I'm still picking trees over a lake. Maybe I'm in the minority. But I've seen enough videos of small planes mushing into tree tops and people walking away without a fire that it seems like a better option to me for long term surviving than sitting there on the shore of a lake soaking wet with zero gear except for the clothes on my back. Water to me will always be a last case option. IE, I'm over open water, or I'm flying through mountain passes and my only choice is a reservoir or lake

 
^Remember, we're not talking airliners or "big" planes. I'm thinking about what I would do in the Skyhawk or Archer I fly
 
^but, like others have said.. there are very few absolutes in aviation, and it is up to the pilot in those critical moments to make the right judgment call. And as our buddy in Florida proved water landings are perfectly survivable too. But personally, it's got to be basically my only realistic choice
 
Sheared off the wings? I think the normal advice is to perform a full stall landing into the treetops. I've seen a few "after" scenes and not one has had a wing sheared off.
I've heard both recommendations. Full stall onto the treetops if you're directly above a dense forest, aim between trees if you're coming down with trees ahead of you and there is no way to avoid them, so as to get the fuel tanks detached and a safe distance from where you come to rest. Neither seems like a reliably good option to me. If the trees aren't wide enough or densely packed enough to support the plane's weight, you're going to be tumbling down anyway. And as you say, the wings might not come off if you try to take them out. In fact you might be stopped cold, almost as if you hit a brick wall.
Here's a real world story. This pilot didn't have options. His 180 took out a tree and a light pole before it hit the house. Look at the damage to the house! The wings are still
attached and the pilot walked away.
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/2017/07/09/float-plane-crashes-into-house-near-lake-hood/
The video won't load for me. But there are always anecdotes to counter any advice you can give. Before I decide I'd rather pick the trees instead of the water, I'd like to see data on the survivability of both options. (And again, I'm not talking about ditching in open water or in very cold water, but ditching in a shallow lake, close to shore, in the summer in the temperate zone.)
 
My understanding is that a Fixed gear airplane will almost always flip over... And if you've never done that, say in some kind of dunk training, it can be very disorienting.... It then comes down to how long you can hold your breath and whether or not you can get the doors open ( if you hadn't pre-unlatched them )....if you're even still conscious. I don't think the odds are as good as you imply... And given the choice of floating around for what could be hours waiting for rescue, as the sharks circle, as opposed to sitting on a tree-stump or rock, waiting for the sheriff to arrive... I'll still take the latter option, thank-you! Also the OP's question was whether to choose a water landing over another option. That means you decide to land in the water when another option is available... I'm sorry, but that is just plain stupid!

Your "understanding" is likely coming from hearing this from instructors and others who came up with it on their own.

Real research, however, shows that fixed-gear airplanes rarely flip over. http://www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm

If there's an open field, by all means, take it! If there's nothing more than a two-lane road running through trees next to a lake, I'd probably take the lake. If it's only trees vs. lake, I'll definitely take the lake, unless the lake is one of the (cold) Great Lakes; even then I'd probably tend toward ditching as close to shore as possible (preferably within about a wingspan!), or ditching *towards* the shore where I can get to ground/water level with no obstructions, and thus hit the trees at ground level and minimum speed.

Regardless, what the DPE said is appropriate. *Consider* the water. A lot of people, as evidenced by this very thread, have not considered the positives of the water option and will avoid it at all costs, even if the land option will kill them.
 
Your "understanding" is likely coming from hearing this from instructors and others who came up with it on their own.

Real research, however, shows that fixed-gear airplanes rarely flip over. http://www.equipped.org/ditchingmyths.htm

If there's an open field, by all means, take it! If there's nothing more than a two-lane road running through trees next to a lake, I'd probably take the lake. If it's only trees vs. lake, I'll definitely take the lake, unless the lake is one of the (cold) Great Lakes; even then I'd probably tend toward ditching as close to shore as possible (preferably within about a wingspan!), or ditching *towards* the shore where I can get to ground/water level with no obstructions, and thus hit the trees at ground level and minimum speed.

Regardless, what the DPE said is appropriate. *Consider* the water. A lot of people, as evidenced by this very thread, have not considered the positives of the water option and will avoid it at all costs, even if the land option will kill them.


[START RANT] Ok... My last post and then I'm moving on... The original question implied that there were 2 viable options... Land or water...A landing spot on land was available, and then the water... The question was would you choose the water over the land because it is inherently safer to do so...Obviously, if the choice on land involved trees, a mountain, a nuclear power plant, or a volcano, and there was a soft, calm lake as an alternative, you would take the water landing.... However if given a choice of LAND or WATER and both were viable options... LAND ON THE GROUND ON YOUR FREAK'N WHEELS... [END RANT]
 
The only water ditching I know of was in a Cessna 150 and he flipped over. Fortunately the windshield blew out and he exited. He barely made it to shore, about 50' swim. Exhausted. He was 20 years old and in good shape.
 
Exhausted. He was 20 years old and in good shape.
Yup. And assuming you have to survive and conditions aren't perfect now you are soaking wet. Even the warmest places get cool overnight and hypothermia can (and likely will) set in

Overall @FlySince9 said it well, and better than what I was trying to do in my rambling posts earlier in the thread
 
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