Who has the plane?

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vkhosid

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So, I was half asleep last night, and a thought came into my head. I know we don't all fly with others that don't have a license. Sometimes, two people will get into a plane where both know how to fly it. Hypothetically speaking, its a rental. You're putting along and suddenly the fan stops spinning. Who is taking the glory of putting her down gently on the wide open freeway below?

I know, I know...the PIC is responsible...that's all well and good when things are going right. But realistically, how do you envision this scenario playing out?

Just curious...
 
Positive exchange of controls and there is no confusion. Discuss the scenario before launching.
 
write-stuff said:
Positive exchange of controls and there is no confusion. Discuss the scenario before launching.
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Is that a realistic discussion you're going to have with your passengers before the flight?....of who has control if the shiet hits the fan?

The only time I have EVER had that question come up was on my check ride when the examiner asked me, "Who's the PIC?"...."Now, if there's an actual emergency, who's the PIC?"....
 
I will knock the pilot unconscious with the fire extinguisher and land it so there is no confusion
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I will knock the pilot unconscious with the fire extinguisher and land it so there is no confusion
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Good, positive, action oriented approach. And I'm never taking you flying...:D

John
 
vkhosid said:
How about flying in a plane, sans fire extinguisher?
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I will do as much damage as I can with a checklist.
Maybe blind him if he didn't go with the rounded corners option at kinko's
 
Learned that one on my first glider lesson. Now I had already solo'd a power plane so the instructor figures I'm ahead of the game so were sitting tandem in the Sweizer and about several minutes into the tow he asks me "Are you flying?" "Me? No am I supposed to be?" Here I am all fat dumb and happy enjoying the tow, it never occurred to me that I was supposed to fly until the release.
 
flyingron said:
Learned that one on my first glider lesson. Now I had already solo'd a power plane so the instructor figures I'm ahead of the game so were sitting tandem in the Sweizer and about several minutes into the tow he asks me "Are you flying?" "Me? No am I supposed to be?" Here I am all fat dumb and happy enjoying the tow, it never occurred to me that I was supposed to fly until the release.
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But the situation i'm envisioning is a bit more stressful...where you clearly know and see that you have a problem.
 
Does not the responsibility lie with the highest rated pilot current in that a/c, (who is in a seat with controls) unless s/he relinquishes that authority?
 
Liability, insurance and lawyer wise, I'd wager as a ATP/CFI if I'm sitting upfront I'm going to end up having to deal with crap even if I wasn't acting as PIC.

Everyone blames everyone, and saying "oh but the guy in their right seat said he'd handle it since he's got more experience", I'd wager that would sell. Yeah, basically something like that. Maybe if you're in the back seat or something you might be able to walk away from the paperwork legal chit storm.
 
vkhosid said:
Is that a realistic discussion you're going to have with your passengers before the flight?....of who has control if the shiet hits the fan?
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I discuss access to the controls with all right seat passengers, and emergency action with pilot passengers, on (almost) every flight. Generally, I'm responsible unless the right seat is much more experienced than me. It's discussed regardless.

Positive "3 way handshake" exchange of controls in nonemergency scenarios, otherwise an "I got it." I've had to read the riot act to a few instructors over that last part.

For CAP missions, it is not at all unusual to have three pilots in the plane.
 
vkhosid said:
Is that a realistic discussion you're going to have with your passengers before the flight?....of who has control if the shiet hits the fan?

The only time I have EVER had that question come up was on my check ride when the examiner asked me, "Who's the PIC?"...."Now, if there's an actual emergency, who's the PIC?"....
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If your front seat passenger is another experienced pilot, absolutely it is a good conversation to have. Imagine you're a 200 hour private pilot and your passenger is Rich Stowell or Patty Wagstaff. Or even some 18,000 Delta captain. Maybe you want their experience in a crisis. Or maybe you don't. But it's good to clear that up in advance, not in the heat of battle. I've had this exact conversation with other pilots countless times, albeit when I was instructing.
 
On my trip down from Maryland Sunday with my CFI along, as we were taxiing out I said; "I am the PIC right up until something goes wrong and then I am immediately giving you the airplane, are you ok with that?" He said, "yes I am". That's the only time for me.
 
Study your insurance coverage, the discussion has to take place before you even start the motor. With some of my flying friends ,they believe the highest rating should take over in an emergency.
 
It's always a good idea to agree in advance who has the authority to initiate "I have the controls." Both pilots cannot have the final authority to take over PIC duties. There can be only one.

In a LOCIF situation, an argument about who is going to fly the thing is a bad idea.
 
As other's have said, it's a good idea to have the discussion prior to departure.

That said, in the old days (before CRM became a big deal) the traditional method was the senior (experience/rank..etc) person would take over. There are still many who subscribe to that line of thinking, although the CRM concept has shifted over the years to having the pilot flying at incident outset maintain control of the aircraft while PNF assists where needed.

One of the reasons for the shift is that the PF already has the feel for the airplane. Assuming the competency level is relatively even, it makes more sense than trying to exchange controls and have the other pilot try to get a feel for the situation in the middle of the emergency.
 
flyingron said:
Learned that one on my first glider lesson. Now I had already solo'd a power plane so the instructor figures I'm ahead of the game so were sitting tandem in the Sweizer and about several minutes into the tow he asks me "Are you flying?" "Me? No am I supposed to be?" Here I am all fat dumb and happy enjoying the tow, it never occurred to me that I was supposed to fly until the release.
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now that's funny
 
Given I don't have an aviation rider on my Life Insurance, it won't cover me if i'm PIC but will if I'm a passenger.. "You have the plane..." might write that down on a napkin or send a text too - "I'm not flying!!"
 
I've seen several responses with "highest rating" takes over. But do they have relatively current experience? I don't care if you're an ATP with 20,000 of turbine time. If you haven't flown a small piston plane since you moved up to a twin back in school, it's my plane in an emergency. Helpful suggestions and radio work accepted to a point...

And frankly, the high time pilots I've known would've expected that anyway.

John
 
I fly with other pilots regularly, and honestly it's something I've never worried about. If we're in their plane, I'm not touching the controls unless they ask me to. If we're in mine, I'm doing it myself cause I know the plane. If it's a rental, who rented it and who has most time/experience?
 
If I am riding along, I will back up the other guy as much as possible. Talk on the radio, read checklists, provide suggestions. I'll let him put it down, until I think I can do it better.
 
James331 said:
Liability, insurance and lawyer wise, I'd wager as a ATP/CFI if I'm sitting upfront I'm going to end up having to deal with crap even if I wasn't acting as PIC.

Everyone blames everyone, and saying "oh but the guy in their right seat said he'd handle it since he's got more experience", I'd wager that would sell. Yeah, basically something like that. Maybe if you're in the back seat or something you might be able to walk away from the paperwork legal chit storm.
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There was a case where the CFI in the back seat got burned. If Cap'n Ron were here, he'd link it for you.
 
There's the practical PIC and then there's the enforcement PIC.

For practical purposes, any time you have more than one pilot aboard, it behooves you to figure out what the relative responsibilities are going to be. I flew with C'Ron once (I was giving him a ride back to SBY after he dropped the Grumman off for radio work). The first thing he asked is whether I wanted him to be a copilot, a flight instructor, or a passenger.

The there's the FAA enforcement strategy. They'll go after whoever they can harm the most. That will usually be the instructor or a working pilot.
 
Do people really lose sleep over these kind of questions and scenarios?


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You'll never really know until something happens how you or the other guy will react.

If I feel something dangerous is becoming even more dangerous and I can correct the situation, I'm gonna call for the controls. I'm not gonna ride into a smoking hole over seniority or who is PIC.
 
jsstevens said:
I've seen several responses with "highest rating" takes over. But do they have relatively current experience? I don't care if you're an ATP with 20,000 of turbine time. If you haven't flown a small piston plane since you moved up to a twin back in school, it's my plane in an emergency. Helpful suggestions and radio work accepted to a point...

And frankly, the high time pilots I've known would've expected that anyway.

John
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This. I wouldn't expect to take over in an emergency in someone's small airplane even if I have more ratings and hours. Help them, yes, take over, no, unless they are incapacitated or clearly panicked and unable to act.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Does not the responsibility lie with the highest rated pilot current in that a/c, (who is in a seat with controls) unless s/he relinquishes that authority?
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No. OWT. Would you relinquish that responsibility to me in your Viking? After all, I have more time than you. And more ratings. Never mind the fact that I have absolutely ZERO Viking time, and probably couldn't find the emergency gear handle if I had to. Etc. Etc.:rofl:
 
James331 said:
Liability, insurance and lawyer wise, I'd wager as a ATP/CFI if I'm sitting upfront I'm going to end up having to deal with crap even if I wasn't acting as PIC.
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I know from first hand experience that that is NOT the case.
 
flyingron said:
The there's the FAA enforcement strategy. They'll go after whoever they can harm the most. That will usually be the instructor or a working pilot.
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I would like to see empirical evidence of that. I have first hand experience that says it isn't true. Given, it is just one data point, but my one first hand experience trumps all the other "I have heard", so far.
 
StinkBug said:
I fly with other pilots regularly, and honestly it's something I've never worried about. If we're in their plane, I'm not touching the controls unless they ask me to.
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That's what I do too. Sometimes it can be hard, but I usually just sit on my hands and act as a passenger unless I am asked to do something. Thankfully people haven't made any assumptions about whether I'm a passenger, pilot, or instructor yet, but I'm sure it will happen at some point. It is usually fairly clear before getting in the airplane, even if it was not specifically discussed.

I do however come to the flight prepared to fly, even if my role is just as ballast. You never know what is going to happen.
 
I realize few of you guys are pros (Greg excluded), and neither am I, but I find your lack of CRM disturbing.

It is not a sign of weakness to assign roles and tasks to the right seat. Quite the opposite. And the worst possible time to determine those roles and tasks is when an emergency has already occurred. The only time I have ever received any resistance to assigned right seat roles from a pilot is when that pilot is acting as a DPE or other type of examiner (e.g. CAP check pilot). Pilots understand the PIC thing thoroughly.

IMO, all student pilots should witness an airliner or military crew in action. All those "good habits" we were taught as student pilots really do get used, religiously. Especially checklists and CRM. Unfortunately, this is not commonly available. It's a big loss. I got really lucky that I have occasional access to a Part 91 public 747, that doesn't have the Part 121 prohibition on access to the flight deck in flight.
 
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I envision that if I am PIC (in the left seat) and the fan stops and the right-seater suddenly takes control of the airplane, somebody is getting punched in the face...
 
If its my plane, its me. Otherwise, if I rented it its me. If we both rented it, watch out. Might end badly. One reason why I dont do that.

Basically, its me. Otherwise, its him. If you dont know, wow, coiuld be a real problem
 
Me. I'm flying the airplane.
I don't care who you are, or how many hours you have, or how many different aircraft you have flown, or how many different type ratings you have. If something goes sideways, I'm flying the plane.
There is no way I'm passively riding to the bottom of that smoking hole knowing\thinking "I would have done it better."
 
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Shepherd said:
Me. I'm flying the airplane.
I don't care who you are, or how many hours you have, or how many different aircraft you have flown, or how many different type ratings you have. If something goes sideways, I'm flying the plane.
There is no way I'm passively riding to the bottom of that smoking hole knowing\thinking "I would have done it better."
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Sooo, youre in MY plane in the right seat and YOURE taking control of the plane away from me during this emergency!?? Not gonna happen...
 
Shepherd said:
Me. I'm flying the airplane.
I don't care who you are, or how many hours you have, or how many different aircraft you have flown, or how many different type ratings you have. If something goes sideways, I'm flying the plane.
There is no way I'm passively riding to the bottom of that smoking hole knowing\thinking "I would have done it better."
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That seems a little silly.

If the engine quit in my plane over woods and water you're going to make a forced water landing, if anyone is going to lawn dart it would be you fiddling around with things you don't understand.

Agree before hand what the roles are.

That said, I still wager somehow the high time right seater, just acting as pax, still gets into some chit somehow between the NTSB, FAA, Insurance and maybe even the left seat PIC.
 
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