When does it become "Mountain Flying"?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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Dad and I are discussing a trip to Santa Fe NM from Dallas in the Cirrus.
Coming in from the south and flying up to KSAF.

Neither of us have taken any mountain flying courses and don't want to do anything that could put us on the cover of the Chute Pull Daily..

Would flying the route below be encroaching in on the "You better know what you are doing" territory?

On paper it looks like a non event but things looking like non events get people killed all the time.

What say POA?

_mtn.jpg
 
Doesn't look like an issue. It's not like you're trying to get into a 3000' strip on a table top at 13k with rising terrain around it.

Also, the displayed track doesn't really have any ridge crossings or things where the winds will change rapidly.

Looks like an easy ride (as depicted).
 
I’d research the subject, closely look at the weather (specifically DA), closely look at your airplanes performance charts, and possibly call the FBO for some local info. You may find out the locals don’t fly past 2 pm or at all when DA reaches X value. Talk about the flight plan with an old salt. Your route of avoiding the pointy things looks good to me.
 
The FAA defines mountainous areas, so flying in those areas would be mountain flying.

For that route (and having flown in that area) I wouldn't worry about it being considered "mountain flying". Just be cognizant that your landing and take off rolls will be longer and your climb rate will be less.
 
One nice thing about mountains is that they also contain valleys, so if you're willing to wiggle the course a bit there's usually a route that doesn't involve some of the pitfalls of "high" mountain flying. That often means going VFR, which also keeps you out of the ice (usually), and offers more outs and alternatives. You still need to pay attention to the wind and the sluggish climb performance with density altitudes, but that part's pretty straightforward. We flew past Texas to Carlsbad then up to Sante Fe two years ago and didn't even consider it mountain flying.
 
What time of year are you considering? I did some flying around ABQ during the month of May a couple years back. When we flew around 6:30am, the DA was already over 6,000ft, so just be cognizant of that, as it will really be the only kicker, imo.

Review performance charts and you’ll be fine.
 
Well it’s definitely mountainous as far as the AIM is concerned. Some will say that unless you’re in Colorado type mountains it really doesn’t count. I’ve flown around the small mountains of the SE to 20,000 ft mountains in Afghanistan. Either one can create unique challenges for pilots.

In your case, I’d note the elevation first off. You’ll be landing at over 6,000 ft so while you’ll still be indicating 80 kts on final, you’ll be truing our well over that. Expect a long roll out. Obviously on take off expect a long roll with mediocre climb rates.

I’d take a more direct route than yours but going south and then up works fine as well. While it’s a fairly high area of terrain, it’s also fairly open. Not many steep valleys with box canyons. That’s a good thing for options also can help with turbulence.

Actually had a Mig-15 ride scheduled there years ago but was cancelled due to weather. Nice airport and nice area. I do prefer the ABQ area more though.
 
Velocity173 said:
I’d take a more direct route than yours but going south and then up works fine as well. While it’s a fairly high area of terrain, it’s also fairly open. Not many steep valleys with box canyons. That’s a good thing for options also can help with turbulence.
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:yeahthat:

Check density altitude.

Your choice of routing puts you over pretty tame ground. You will see the mountains long before you get to them so avoidance of rocks is pretty easy. Which might lead to taking shortcuts, which will be fine after you see how open it is.

Right now it is clear and a million with a light wind. Get used to visibility of 99+.

Watch for coyotes on and around the runways.

Learn the official state question, you will hear it in restaurants. ''Red or green.??"

It will be a fun trip.!!
 
I have flown in the area of your proposed route and consider the route prudent. My limited experience in that particular area showed me that the winds, especially the afternoon winds from the west blowing over the ridge just east of Albuquerque can give you a bit of "texture" to the atmosphere. So just be aware of possible turbulence even over the flat terrain. ...and of course, as everyone has already noted, DA.
 
First understand your TAS is going to be about 10 kts faster than you are used to on approach.
 
texasclouds said:
I’d research the subject, closely look at the weather (specifically DA), closely look at your airplanes performance charts, and possibly call the FBO for some local info. You may find out the locals don’t fly past 2 pm or at all when DA reaches X value. Talk about the flight plan with an old salt. Your route of avoiding the pointy things looks good to me.
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Winter time, I don't worry about DA out here. I do worry about winds over the ridge lines, but on this route, no problem. Even in the summer, I don't have problems with the 180 hp cherokee altho I despise the afternoon bumps.

Hm....perhaps we can have a POA meeting. 'Bout 3 hrs from Denver in the cherokee and I never go above 8500.
 
We are thinking of doing this sometime in November
 
Clip4 said:
First understand your TAS is going to be about 10 kts faster than you are used to on approach.
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Knowing and understand are two different things.

Knowing it is being able say the sentence above.

Understanding is when you realize you are 10kts slow on final approach or departure because that looks normal. Once you experience this you will have a much better understanding of it, just make sure you survive experiencing it.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
The route is good. You will find you will want to turn NW quicker after you realize that those big things sticking up are pretty.
 
Your route looks fine, pretty much what I flew the last time I came up from the Dalhart area to Santa Fe. It is a great place to visit, there are many hotels but my favorite since I was 10 years old is La Fonda.
Go visit the lovely cathedral just at the end of the street east of the hotel. Also don't miss the Bradbury Science Museum at Los Alamos just 18 miles nw. they have great runway there, land west and takeoff east. This is where they developed the atomic bomb and fascinating if grim history. If the ski lift if running go ski or just ride up for the view. The Mexican food is maybe as good as Dallas, the bar b q is not. There are a number of fine art galleries in town.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Dad and I are discussing a trip to Santa Fe NM from Dallas in the Cirrus.
Coming in from the south and flying up to KSAF.

Neither of us have taken any mountain flying courses and don't want to do anything that could put us on the cover of the Chute Pull Daily..

Would flying the route below be encroaching in on the "You better know what you are doing" territory?

On paper it looks like a non event but things looking like non events get people killed all the time.

What say POA?

View attachment 79451
Click to expand...

Here's some stuff about it. https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/santa-fe-and-mountain-flying.56729/

Chute Pull Daily...to funny.
 
It's all relative, and I'm a flatlander.

At my home in Florida, I live a few miles north of Iron Mountain. And of course, I have free-climbed Mt. Dora.
 
Non-Texas mountain flying here. By me!

Hayden Pass in a Mooney M20E on a remarkable no-wind day. I'm flying at 12,000 feet, the pass is 10,700, and the mountains to the left are 13,105. February, 2017.

 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Dad and I are discussing a trip to Santa Fe NM from Dallas in the Cirrus.
Coming in from the south and flying up to KSAF.

Neither of us have taken any mountain flying courses and don't want to do anything that could put us on the cover of the Chute Pull Daily..

Would flying the route below be encroaching in on the "You better know what you are doing" territory?

On paper it looks like a non event but things looking like non events get people killed all the time.

What say POA?

View attachment 79451
Click to expand...

I've flown quite a bit in NM, CO area. This route should be doable even if you have no mountain experience. But pay attention to winds aloft when you are flying leeward of the peaks. You could get tossed around quite a bit. Density altitude is the main thing to keep in mind. Don't shove the mixture to full on take off.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
We are thinking of doing this sometime in November
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Route is good. Lean for max power on takeoff. If winds are bad, you have Moriarty (0E0) with 2 runways as one of your fixes. Chances are higher for mountain obscuration in November ... if REAL windy, wait it out. Take off shear/down drafts can exceed your climb capability ...
 
Have to do some research for chapter and verse but somewhere the FAA defines mountainous terrain as either at or above 5,000 MSL.

Your route looks good for the trip you discussed. Lots of good advice by other posters too! Have a good time.
 
We just bought the Cessna 175 in Medford Oregon. I know nothing about mountain flying. We did not make a straight line and fly across the huge stuff. We took the long way and made a bunch of stops. Straight down to Southern California, up to Arizona and across New Mexico then down to Texas. It was a blast! We turned a 2 day trip into a 8 day trip. A few times we were at 11,500 to clear some stuff. It was a great experience.
Something I found really interesting is my Ipad never lost cellular service the whole trip. The only weather I have is AT&T service. I picked up weather the entire trip, even over the mountains in the middle of nowhere.
 
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Bryan:

I suggest direct. Did it in August, no controversy.
 
I just noticed one strange thing, it looks like you have got the reciprocal of the actual heading on two of the three legs? 077 and 166 degrees? You can't get to SAN Fe flying east or south from Dallas. Now I don't have your gps or whatever that mapping device is but I do know directions.

We have a couple that I have met here who have a Cirrus, they keep at Addison and they spend much of the year up here.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
I just noticed one strange thing, it looks like you have got the reciprocal of the actual heading on two of the three legs? 077 and 166 degrees? You can't get to SAN Fe flying east or south from Dallas. Now I don't have your gps or whatever that mapping device is but I do know directions.

We have a couple that I have met here who have a Cirrus, they keep at Addison and they spend much of the year up here.
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He's got an out and back planned. It's a feature in many flight planning tools. See how there's two pink lines headed off to/back from the east? If he scrolled right and showed us that part of the route there would be a bubble that says there's a heading somewhere in the 285 range.
 
I have little to add. I have been there dozens of times including in a 150 and several times this year in other aircraft. All the mountain flying rules apply.
I like the Jet Center.
 
One under-appreciated attraction in Santa Fe is the western art collection in the state capitol. Just go in and wander the halls.
 
IMO when you’re navigating through canyons vs flying over the top sucking on o2
 
It becomes mountain flying when you are suddenly pushed up on the windward side or pushed down on the leeward side. Up is good, down, not so good.
 
It’s all a matter of degree, and ‘depends’. Take two average weight individuals, 6300’ MSL, 75 degrees, favorable winds in your SR-22 ‘turbo’. I doubt you’d hardly miss a beat.

Now take your Warrior, same two, full fuel, maybe a bit warmer, with a gusty crosswind. It may require closer scrutiny. A 6000’ runway with forgiving terrain helps a lot.

I still say, a suitable airborne divert offers a great safety advantage, and using it when called for. Do we really have to be ANYWHERE? No.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Dad and I are discussing a trip to Santa Fe NM from Dallas in the Cirrus.
Coming in from the south and flying up to KSAF.

Neither of us have taken any mountain flying courses and don't want to do anything that could put us on the cover of the Chute Pull Daily..

Would flying the route below be encroaching in on the "You better know what you are doing" territory?

On paper it looks like a non event but things looking like non events get people killed all the time.

What say POA?

View attachment 79451
Click to expand...

Didn't the FAA bestow a Certified Mountain Flying Instructor rating on you? Pretty sure that happened. You should just pay you to teach yourself. :D;)
 
jonvcaples said:
Have to do some research for chapter and verse but somewhere the FAA defines mountainous terrain as either at or above 5,000 MSL.

Your route looks good for the trip you discussed. Lots of good advice by other posters too! Have a good time.
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Jon, you should know better. We live in the Denver area, which really is flatland. HIgh flatland but still flatland.
 
Alaska is so "mountainous" that most pilots don't even have instrument ratings, but there's an awful lot of flying done there, most of it very safely. I remember getting a weather briefing there one time, and when I mentioned that I could go IFR his immediate response was, "You're not from around here, are you?"
 
dbahn said:
Alaska is so "mountainous" that most private pilots don't even have instrument ratings, but there's an awful lot of flying done there, most of it very safely. I remember getting a weather briefing there one time, and when I mentioned that I could go IFR his immediate response was, "You're not from around here, are you?"
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I made one little change for ya... and yes.... I have flown a lot of PVFR up north....
 
pigpenracing said:
Something I found really interesting is my Ipad never lost cellular service the whole trip.
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Can usually text at least if you're at or below 3500 AGL in my area *IF* there are any cities in the area ... there are some areas between Pecos and San Angelo that this technique fails.
 
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