What's wrong with the FSS?

[Jim_R]

Saw a comment on another thread here recently implying that the FSS is a lot worse than it used to be. This is not the first time I've seen/heard a comment like that, here or elsewhere.

I'm a recently-minted pilot; I've only had my card since 2009. All I know from personal experience is the "new" FSS after LockMart took over, but my experience with them has been positive.

I use 1-800-WX-BRIEF a fair bit, and have never had to wait for a briefer. Only once did I have a briefer who was slightly unpleasant to talk to, and usually my briefer seems to have local knowledge and brings that to the brief.

I don't use FSS in the air as much, because I have ADSB WX in the cockpit and it's easier to consume than having a radio conversation. I have used FSS from the cockpit to file an IFR plan when ATC wouldn't take a pop-up request, and that was painless.

Why are there so many negative comments about FSS today? I know there was some trouble during the transition, but those bumps seem (to me) to have been smoothed out long ago.

What did FSS do back in "the good ol' days" that it's not doing today?

 

[N801BH]

Saw a comment on another thread here recently implying that the FSS is a lot worse than it used to be. This is not the first time I've seen/heard a comment like that, here or elsewhere.

I'm a recently-minted pilot; I've only had my card since 2009. All I know from personal experience is the "new" FSS after LockMart took over, but my experience with them has been positive.

I use 1-800-WX-BRIEF a fair bit, and have never had to wait for a briefer. Only once did I have a briefer who was slightly unpleasant to talk to, and usually my briefer seems to have local knowledge and brings that to the brief.

I don't use FSS in the air as much, because I have ADSB WX in the cockpit and it's easier to consume than having a radio conversation. I have used FSS from the cockpit to file an IFR plan when ATC wouldn't take a pop-up request, and that was painless.

Why are there so many negative comments about FSS today? I know there was some trouble during the transition, but those bumps seem (to me) to have been smoothed out long ago.

What did FSS do back in "the good ol' days" that it's not doing today?

Back in the good ol' days... We could walk into a FSS and actually talk face to face with a briefer......

When Locmart first took over the FSS, they were "less then up to the task".. I will admit they have gotten alot better now..

 

[Pilawt]

Back in the good ol' days... We could walk into a FSS and actually talk face to face with a briefer......

... a briefer who actually was familiar with the local weather patterns and idiosyncracies. Better yet, he even worked in an office that had windows (and not the Microsoft kind).

Sometimes the look in the briefer's eye had more influence on your go/no-go decision than did the symbols on the yellow teletype sheets and the thermal-printed prog charts.

 

[poadeleted20]

Back in the good ol' days... We could walk into a FSS and actually talk face to face with a briefer......

...if you lived where one existed.

When Locmart first took over the FSS, they were "less then up to the task".. I will admit they have gotten alot better now..

Agreed. They fixed the early teething problems and the system seems to function better now than it did under the government, with shorter wait times, virtually no busy signals, and briefings almost as good as before. Only difference is the lack of local weather experience the old FSS folks had, but that doesn't make much difference if you're headed somewhere else or can't get through to a briefer (as did happen in the "good 'ol days").

 

[Jim_R]

I actually included a line about FSS office consolidation in my OP, but deleted it for brevity. That's the only tangible thing I know of that's different between FSS then-and-now, but that doesn't seem a big enough change to justify the FSS-hatin' I frequently see/hear.

 

[poadeleted20]

I actually included a line about FSS office consolidation, but deleted it for brevity. That's the only tangible thing I know of that's different between FSS then-and-now...

I would repeat what I said above -- the biggest difference is that I rarely have to wait more than a few seconds, and never get a busy signal. I can remember in the "good ol' days" routinely waiting twenty minutes or more for someone to answer, and to be trying again and again and again to get past a busy signal. That doesn't happen any more outside some sort of system failure, and I can't remember the last time it did happen.

Of course, these days I don't even use the FSS telephonic system unless I can't get an internet connection, as I'd rather see the pictures and data than have a verbal description of them and be unable to compare data back and forth.

 

[Jim_R]

Of course, these days I don't even use the FSS telephonic system unless I can't get an internet connection, as I'd rather see the pictures and data than have a verbal description of them and be unable to compare data back and forth.

That's a separate question I have...wondering how much of what FSS provides has been superseded by alternate means of gathering the information. I still like a brief chat on the phone to get a warm fuzzy that I didn't miss or misinterpret something. (I also don't know of any way other than FSS to "legally" get info on TFRs, so I make the call for CYA purposes as well.)

Seems like with the availability of tools like DUAT, DUATS, NWS Aviation Weather, Weathermeister, etc., there's very little FSS can offer a weather-savvy pilot (preflight) other than the CYA TFR info.

Which just increases my head-scratching over the FSS-hatin' I see.

 

[oldShar]

Originally Posted by N801BH
Back in the good ol' days... We could walk into a FSS and actually talk face to face with a briefer......

... a briefer who actually was familiar with the local weather patterns and idiosyncracies. Better yet, he even worked in an office that had windows (and not the Microsoft kind).

Sometimes the look in the briefer's eye had more influence on your go/no-go decision than did the symbols on the yellow teletype sheets and the thermal-printed prog charts.

And it wasn't just TALK face-to-face, but get the whole interaction. And if/when something was going on, he would SHOW you developing situations -- how big/bad they were and Where. And if you had concerns or problems, it was the FSS that would offer solutions or do back ups to the FBOs to help out (include driving you to places to RON when WX turned sour when you were stopped in unfamiliar territory.)

OK, they weren't at all airports, but they were just about any significant or major airport (not necessarily what we would consider Class C or B today -- many Class D were included, as well as some Class E (KBLH was an old favorite of mine, for instance))

 

[Palmpilot]

That's a separate question I have...wondering how much of what FSS provides has been superseded by alternate means of gathering the information. I still like a brief chat on the phone to get a warm fuzzy that I didn't miss or misinterpret something. (I also don't know of any way other than FSS to "legally" get info on TFRs, so I make the call for CYA purposes as well.)

Seems like with the availability of tools like DUAT, DUATS, NWS Aviation Weather, Weathermeister, etc., there's very little FSS can offer a weather-savvy pilot (preflight) other than the CYA TFR info.

Which just increases my head-scratching over the FSS-hatin' I see.

It's not unusual to find airports where Internet access is not available, especially in less populated areas of the country.

Personally, I've never had trouble with LockMart once they got past their early screw ups.

Also, DUAT briefings throw so much irrelevant information at me that I find it easy to overlook something important.

 

[Palmpilot]

I actually included a line about FSS office consolidation in my OP, but deleted it for brevity. That's the only tangible thing I know of that's different between FSS then-and-now, but that doesn't seem a big enough change to justify the FSS-hatin' I frequently see/hear.

A lot of that consolidation happened while the FSS system was still being operated by the FAA.

 

[Velocity173]

Saw a comment on another thread here recently implying that the FSS is a lot worse than it used to be. This is not the first time I've seen/heard a comment like that, here or elsewhere.

I'm a recently-minted pilot; I've only had my card since 2009. All I know from personal experience is the "new" FSS after LockMart took over, but my experience with them has been positive.

I use 1-800-WX-BRIEF a fair bit, and have never had to wait for a briefer. Only once did I have a briefer who was slightly unpleasant to talk to, and usually my briefer seems to have local knowledge and brings that to the brief.

I don't use FSS in the air as much, because I have ADSB WX in the cockpit and it's easier to consume than having a radio conversation. I have used FSS from the cockpit to file an IFR plan when ATC wouldn't take a pop-up request, and that was painless.

Why are there so many negative comments about FSS today? I know there was some trouble during the transition, but those bumps seem (to me) to have been smoothed out long ago.

What did FSS do back in "the good ol' days" that it's not doing today?

My Dad did it during "the good ol' days" before and during the change to AFSS. I think they went from over 200 facilities to being combined to like 60 AFSS. Prior to all the Internet access that we have now they actually served a valuable purpose. As said above you could walk in to a FSS and be greeted by a specialist. These guys were actually experienced on what they were doing and knew their area like the back of their hand. Back then you didn't have all this technology that takes all the hard work out of navigation. I've walked into his work before and there was silence going on because one of the specialists was using an old DF display trying to get a lost pilot oriented by his radio transmissions. Once my Dad got an award for getting a lost pilot oriented again over Jacksonville FL. Pilot was low on fuel and my Dad gave him landmarks to get him oriented back to CRG. You simply don't get that kind of service anymore. When they went to Lockeed Martin a wealth of experience retired as well. You had a new crop that was huried through training that had no real local knowledge on aviation matters. In the old days you had aviation professionals and not robots reading a computer screen.

I'll be the first to tell you that stuff isn't needed anymore if you're an experienced pilot. I've got more weather planning and navigation in my iPhone than they did in pre AFSS times. My bro worked AFSS for awhile and even he agreed. He even did it before the whole cellphone Internet craze. During his time (late 90s) they were marginally useful, now they're completely unnecessary for most aviation operations when you have so many online planning and filing resouces. Only reason why I used them in the Army was that I was required to always file a flight plan VFR or IFR. Now I fly mostly civilian VFR and can't remember the last time I filed because I'm always getting FF.

So yeah, they used to provide a valuable service but now I wonder how the FAA can keep funding them.

 

[poadeleted20]

It's not unusual to find airports where Internet access is not available, especially in less populated areas of the country.

I'd have to disagree. I travel a lot for my flight training business, and I think I've found two airports in the last year where there was no internet access. They've even got it at Lee County Airport in Giddings TX (population 5200). And if you do travel those places routinely, 3g/4g access by subscription would solve the problem

 

[Palmpilot]

I'd have to disagree. I travel a lot for my flight training business, and I think I've found two airports in the last year where there was no internet access. They've even got it at Lee County Airport in Giddings TX (population 5200). And if you do travel those places routinely, 3g/4g access by subscription would solve the problem

Apparently we don't fly to the same airports.

I'm also not solely concerned with places that I fly to routinely. I like having telephone briefings available as a backup for those places that don't have a room with a computer, or wifi access, and there's no subscription fee for FSSes.

 

[poadeleted20]

Apparently we don't fly to the same airports.

I'm also not solely concerned with places that I fly to routinely. I like having telephone briefings available as a backup for those places that don't have a room with a computer, or wifi access, and there's no subsciption fee for FSSes.

Well, then, in this day of virtually universal cellphone coverage, you should have no problem at all. I just very rarely find it necessary to fall back on that option for preflight briefing and filing purposes.

 

[Pilawt]

Well, then, in this day of virtually universal cellphone coverage, you should have no problem at all. I just very rarely find it necessary to fall back on that option for preflight briefing and filing purposes.

That may be true for the east and midwest. For the west, not so much. If the airport is not in a city or town, or right on a major highway, 3G/4G/cell coverage is iffy.

 

[JHW]

The best FSS briefing I ever had, the briefer came around the counter and took me outside. We walked around on the ramp while he gave me a geography lesson about how local features affected winds and how to interpret what the clouds at the mountaintops were telling me. It was more mountain flying course than weather briefing. I was there with him for several hours.

But those days are long gone. Given the nature of briefings today, I think that LM is doing a better job than the government was doing immediately before the changeover. Hold times are less and the dedicated line for getting a void time clearance is a big plus. The way things have progressed, I see no reason that FSS consolidation shouldn't continue until there is a single call center.

 

[timwinters]

Of course, these days I don't even use the FSS telephonic system unless I can't get an internet connection, as I'd rather see the pictures and data than have a verbal description of them and be unable to compare data back and forth.

Hence the reason you never have to wait longer than 2 seconds...no one else is calling them either.

That wasn't the case 10...15 years ago.

The reason I can't stand calling them is because they're typically doing nothing more than reading right off the screen---just like an Indian customer support operators does---and I can do that on my phone/computer.

Also, I can't begin to count how many times in Lock-Mart's early days I was told "VFR not recommended" when the conditions weren't even MVFR much less IFR.

Crying wolf far too often doesn't instill one with confidence in their briefings. I don't know if they're as bad as they used to be when they first took over---since I don't think I've called them in 2 or 3 years---but in their early days they were definitely all about managing risk.

Their own risk, not the pilots'.

Get it on the tape that "VFR is not recommended" even though it's just shy of clear and a million and they significantly reduce their liability if something bad happens.

 

[Palmpilot]

The overuse of "VFR not recommended" was true LONG before LockMart took over.

 

[Palmpilot]

That may be true for the east and midwest. For the west, not so much. If the airport is not in a city or town, or right on a major highway, 3G/4G/cell coverage is iffy.

I just hope that pay phones don't disappear completely, as they are obviously still needed in areas without cell phone coverage.

 

[Everskyward]

The overuse of "VFR not recommended" was true LONG before LockMart took over.

So was "reading things off the screen".

 

[kyleb]

Given the nature of briefings today, I think that LM is doing a better job than the government was doing immediately before the changeover.

Agree. No complaints about the current FSS other than the voice recognition software isn't always perfect and that every time I call, I spend about 8 seconds impatiently waiting for automated prompts that come all-too-slowly.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Agree. No complaints about the current FSS other than the voice recognition software isn't always perfect

The worst is trying to use it when outside on a windy ramp. "Colorado" "I'm sorry did you say Oklahoma?" "No" - "Colorado" "I'm sorry did you say California?" "No!"

 

[O-200]

I like to hear them say "no TFR's" just to cma.

I wonder if I can get a very abbreviated breifing with just that.

George

 

[O-200]

The worst is trying to use it when outside on a windy ramp. "Colorado" "I'm sorry did you say Oklahoma?" "No" - "Colorado" "I'm sorry did you say California?" "No!"

Ha! been there! "26"

George

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I like to hear them say "no TFR's" just to cma.

I wonder if I can get a very abbreviated breifing with just that.

I have.
"This is N12345 at Boulder we'll be departing in a few minutes for a local flight are there any TFRs in the area"
"Lets see, no I don't see any TFR's in the area"
"Okay thank you have a nice day"
"You too"

 

[azure]

Some of the briefers give decent weather readings but the lack of local knowledge is the main reason I don't use them much. (Well that, and the fact that I can get a legal internet briefing on my iPad.) I can't begin to count the number of times I've been told "high pressure in control over your area, should be good VFR flying weather" which is only true maybe 50% of the time, if that. Especially around the lakes, the barometer is fairly useless as a predictor of absence of ceilings or precip.

And don't get me started on the one time, in the early days of Lockmart AFSS, that I was given an optimistic briefing of improving conditions only to find myself in IMC and having to scud run to get to the nearest airport.

Lockmart is mostly useful for tricky NOTAMs and TFRs. Picking through dozens of NOTAMs that don't apply to me to find the one TFR that does is tedious and well worth a call. And yes, you can ask for JUST the TFRs, or anything you want for that matter.

 

[timwinters]

The worst is trying to use it when outside on a windy ramp. "Colorado" "I'm sorry did you say Oklahoma?" "No" - "Colorado" "I'm sorry did you say California?" "No!"

Ohhhh...so when the recording asks "what state are you calling from" you're supposed to respond with one of the United States. I get it now.

I always responded with "confusion".

:wink2:

 

[Jim_R]

Also, I can't begin to count how many times in Lock-Mart's early days I was told "VFR not recommended" when the conditions weren't even MVFR much less IFR.

This might be a YMMV thing. The only times I've heard "VFR not recommended" was when I was already questioning whether I should attempt a VFR flight.

Personally, I think it makes sense for them to err on the conservative side. They don't know what skill level you're at...ultimately you're PIC and so you get to make the call, not them. Only time it might matter is if you get into trouble in bad weather...and then there wouldn't be much of an argument about whether they were too conservative, would there?

 

[bbchien]

The problem with FSS is they won't answer the ONE thing I make clear I want to know. They demand to know all kinds of irrelevant things becuase their sortware demands it.

By the time you get to it, you have to go back to center, who is calling.

If you call on the ground, by the time the guys stops blathering, the weather has changed.

 

[Jim_R]

Hmm. Has not been my experience, at least when calling on the ground. I have my profile saved with them, so when i call from my cell it pops up on their screen and they already know my plane, equipment, etc., which saves a lot of overhead time. If I ask for a Standard Briefing, sure, I get the 5-minute spiel. But if I ask for an abbreviated brief, they say, "Sure, what do you want to know?"

If I'm just calling for TFR info, it takes ~40 seconds to navigate the computer prompts to reach a briefer, and ~30 seconds to get the info I want.

Only times I've called from the air were to file IFR plans en-route, and of course, they want to know all the stuff on the flight plan form. I don't know what they ask for if you request a wx brief in flight.

 

[Henning]

Back in the good ol' days... We could walk into a FSS and actually talk face to face with a briefer......

All while drinking their coffee. I remember getting a "well, the forecast says this, but it's not going to be right. You want to use this pass to get through there." as well.

 

[zaitcev]

Well, then, in this day of virtually universal cellphone coverage, you should have no problem at all.

It really depends on your cell provider. I have no service in places like Angel Fire and Taos, NM. Fortunately, they have very nice FBOs where I can always borrow a landline phone. But then one day a CFI and I landed in Questa... and even his mighty Verizon was of no use. We made a quick hop to Angel Fire, so he could call his wife, whom he uses as "family FSS", and close the "plan".

 

[zaitcev]

The worst is trying to use it when outside on a windy ramp. "Colorado" "I'm sorry did you say Oklahoma?" "No" - "Colorado" "I'm sorry did you say California?" "No!"

They take DMTF as well. For example, for New Mexico, hit 33, then they say "this selection chose multiply states", hit 3. Also, hide inside your airplane!

 

[4CornerFlyer]

And don't get me started on the one time, in the early days of Lockmart AFSS, that I was given an optimistic briefing of improving conditions only to find myself in IMC and having to scud run to get to the nearest airport.

Well you know Flight Service, whether Lockheed Martin or the US, doesn't write the forecasts. That's been the job of the National Weather Service for 3/4 of a century.

Maybe an FSS briefer can interpret a forecast liberally, but they do provide you with the actual forecast, and those are not perfect, especially in times a rapidly changing weather.

Jon

 

[Henning]

Well you know Flight Service, whether Lockheed Martin or the US, doesn't write the forecasts. That's been the job of the National Weather Service for 3/4 of a century.

Maybe an FSS briefer can interpret a forecast liberally, but they do provide you with the actual forecast, and those are not perfect, especially in times a rapidly changing weather.

Jon

That what was nice with on field FSS with meteorologists, typically military trained, that had local/regional knowledge. They often knew when the NWS was wrong and had real time information.

 

[Everskyward]

That what was nice with on field FSS with meteorologists, typically military trained, that had local/regional knowledge. They often knew when the NWS was wrong and had real time information.

That was a long time ago, though. Way before Lockheed Martin and before the first consolidation. I'm thinking 1980s.

 

[Henning]

That was a long time ago, though. Way before Lockheed Martin and before the first consolidation. I'm thinking 1980s.

Early 90s was the end of it from my experience, but even then there were closed stations all over the country. DUAT(S) spelled the end, and they knew it.

 

[azure]

That was a long time ago, though. Way before Lockheed Martin and before the first consolidation. I'm thinking 1980s.

I seem to recall there were a couple of very good local briefers at Lansing FSS when I first started flying in around '02. That's why the total wrongness of this LM guy caught me off guard. It was early in the new system, and he sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

It was the last time I trusted an anonymous voice on the other end of a telephone telling me about weather. Now I check all the available sources for weather info, and the only time I call FSS is if I feel in need of making sure I have it on tape that there are "no TFRs along your route of flight."

 

[Everskyward]

Early 90s was the end of it from my experience, but even then there were closed stations all over the country. DUAT(S) spelled the end, and they knew it.

Realistically, there is much more information out there now on the internet than was available even to FSS back in the 1980s or early 1990s, let alone pilots.