Warehouse crash Fullerton Airport,CA 1-2-2025

RV-10, based at KFUL. Pilot experienced a problem that resulted in attempting to return to the airport and a stall/spin occurred. I have heard more information, but don't want to speculate publicly without verification.

Reports now are one deceased, likely the pilot, and 15 injured.
 
Seems that whatever went wrong occurred about the time the pilot turned downwind as airspeed and altitude began deteriorating rapidly ...
Yeah, at about 875', you tell the tower you're landing on the reciprocating runway. Or taxiway. Or grass somewhere on the field. But your mind is thinking A) it'll clear up. and B) I'll just fly the downwind until it clears up.

And then you're effed.
 
Yeah, at about 875', you tell the tower you're landing on the reciprocating runway. Or taxiway. Or grass somewhere on the field. But your mind is thinking A) it'll clear up. and B) I'll just fly the downwind until it clears up.

And then you're effed.
The even more tragic part about it is he initially said 06 then changed to 24. Atc said take whatever you want. A lesson for all of us to take the closest option. Especially when "winds calm"

Hearing ATC's voice immediately after, he was clearly distraught.
 
Tower cleared him for a left downwind prior to the emergency declaration, which he must have requested but was unheard on the frequency. That suggests perhaps he was doing a post maintenance hop around the pattern.

It's sad he didn't use his time and altitude to line up on Rwy 06. There might have been a different outcome.

RIP
 
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He had a female passenger on board, I think it was just a pattern flight. Easy to get a left downwind mindset when it's what you are planning on, before the interruption. The engine failure looks as the Santa Anna freeway was being crossed about a mile or two NW from the Disneyland TFR. He was high and tight for 06, but a slip and S-turns might have at least made midfield from the freeway. Or turning a mid-field base at 325 ft. rather than doing a whole pattern to base leg. A departing Cessna was a cleared away distraction on 06. It just seems like the Swiss Cheese lined up to make for a very difficult, quick decision that ran out of altitude and airspeed.
 
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Yeah, at about 875', you tell the tower you're landing on the reciprocating runway. Or taxiway. Or grass somewhere on the field. But your mind is thinking A) it'll clear up. and B) I'll just fly the downwind until it clears up.

And then you're effed.
It probably wasn't an instant failure, so the "it'll clear up" got him. However, it appears that he didn't have enough power to maintain altitude, as he was descending AND slowing from that crosswind-to-downwind turn.

The first lesson we can take away from this is that you cannot possibly beat the descent you'll get at best glide. If he'd have turned so that his base was abeam the numbers, he might have had a chance. Normal base and final was just more distance than he had energy for.

RIP, aviator. :nonod:
 
Disclaimer: Some don't like it when a poster says something and then refuses to respond to follow-up comments. In a recent post someone asked to be warned about this at the beginning of the post. This is that warning. I come here to learn and sometimes pass on some thoughts about things that I have learned that some might benefit from. Beyond that, I don't have whatever gene it is that makes people want to engage with strangers on the internet.

You will hear pilots say that some aircraft do not fly the same with a dead engine as they do with power at idle. About a year ago I got up the courage to test this in my experimental aircraft. While above my uncontrolled airport, and with a ton of altitude, I pulled my mixture all the way out until the engine completely stopped producing any power. The 3 bladed prop was still spinning.

The result was nothing like the 30 years of practicing simulated engine outs with the power at idle. The descent rate and loss of altitude were more extreme. My initial reaction was shock. I was expecting something different, but not this radical.

I have heard some Cessna and Piper pilots who have tried this say there was not much difference.

However, I wonder if for some experimentals the real engine-out experience is far more dramatic than they would expect from years of practicing power-at-idle engine outs?

I understand why practicing mixture-to-idle is not a recommended practice, but I think for experimentals it might save a life.

I might have been in a world of hurt if I was at pattern altitude and had a real engine failure for the first time in my plane. My shock factor and the excessive altitude loss would not have given me the time to do anything "normal" to save the situation. In other words, if you train for a certain scenario, and when it happens the basis for that training is not there, it may take an exceptional pilot to overcome this challenge. In all my years of flying I have learned that I am not an exceptional pilot.
 
Disclaimer: Some don't like it when a poster says something and then refuses to respond to follow-up comments. In a recent post someone asked to be warned about this at the beginning of the post. This is that warning. I come here to learn and sometimes pass on some thoughts about things that I have learned that some might benefit from. Beyond that, I don't have whatever gene it is that makes people want to engage with strangers on the internet.

You will hear pilots say that some aircraft do not fly the same with a dead engine as they do with power at idle. About a year ago I got up the courage to test this in my experimental aircraft. While above my uncontrolled airport, and with a ton of altitude, I pulled my mixture all the way out until the engine completely stopped producing any power. The 3 bladed prop was still spinning.

The result was nothing like the 30 years of practicing simulated engine outs with the power at idle. The descent rate and loss of altitude were more extreme. My initial reaction was shock. I was expecting something different, but not this radical.

I have heard some Cessna and Piper pilots who have tried this say there was not much difference.

However, I wonder if for some experimentals the real engine-out experience is far more dramatic than they would expect from years of practicing power-at-idle engine outs?

I understand why practicing mixture-to-idle is not a recommended practice, but I think for experimentals it might save a life.

I might have been in a world of hurt if I was at pattern altitude and had a real engine failure for the first time in my plane. My shock factor and the excessive altitude loss would not have given me the time to do anything "normal" to save the situation. In other words, if you train for a certain scenario, and when it happens the basis for that training is not there, it may take an exceptional pilot to overcome this challenge. In all my years of flying I have learned that I am not an exceptional pilot.
I still think making every landing power off landing ( plane and conditions permitting and within reasonable limits- I usually go idle before turning base ) will leave you better prepared than making a habit of relying on power all the way until you are 3 feet over the runway.
 
I still think making every landing power off landing ( plane and conditions permitting and within reasonable limits- I usually go idle before turning base ) will leave you better prepared than making a habit of relying on power all the way until you are 3 feet over the runway.
Not to mention having a mindset of landing 1/3 down the runway power out and if you need to, slip as aggressively as needed.
 
You will hear pilots say that some aircraft do not fly the same with a dead engine as they do with power at idle. About a year ago I got up the courage to test this in my experimental aircraft. While above my uncontrolled airport, and with a ton of altitude, I pulled my mixture all the way out until the engine completely stopped producing any power. The 3 bladed prop was still spinning.

The result was nothing like the 30 years of practicing simulated engine outs with the power at idle. The descent rate and loss of altitude were more extreme. My initial reaction was shock. I was expecting something different, but not this radical.

I have heard some Cessna and Piper pilots who have tried this say there was not much difference.
I'm sure that any airplane is at least a little different. Supposedly a windmilling prop is pretty much equivalent to a flat plate the size of the prop disc, which is a LOT of drag. Having the engine idling is going to give you less drag, or with a big enough engine at the right/wrong airspeed, maybe even some residual thrust.

I would bet that airplanes that are more efficient and airplanes that have bigger engines are more different between idle vs. inoperative compared to something that's already pretty draggy and underpowered like a 152/172.

FWIW, when I was doing initial testing on ForeFlight's glide ring feature, I found that if I started at 10,000 feet and waited until the ring was on the airport and then pulled the engine to idle, I'd have to extend my landing gear at 7,000 feet (miles away from the airport) and fly a pattern to get it down. Another time I left the gear up until you might normally expect to put it down, but I overflew the airport by 5 miles and turned around to get it down. That tells me that there is definitely a significant difference when it comes to the real thing.

Someday, once I have a full glass panel installed to log the data, I plan to do some glide tests on my plane to determine the real effects of various things on glide (windmilling vs stopped, prop setting, throttle setting, etc). I'll have to add this to the list - What's the difference between idle and engine actually out?
 
The track:
View attachment 136766

... and the LiveATC (takeoff clx at 6:20) -- warning: very sad to listen to.
Man that is tough the hear.


The level of fear in the initial comment will already make any rationale thought hard to process on what to do. Only thing we can learn from this is a departure briefing covering this scenario may just make the difference. You commit to an action under pre set conditions, unless the situation makes a different action more practical
 
Very sad that he took his daughter with him.
I wish more people would install the BRS, especially in experimentals where it's both cheaper and more valuable (given that experimentals have a higher accident rate). A parachute would have saved their lives and not cause more injuries on the ground.
 
Very sad that he took his daughter with him.
I wish more people would install the BRS, especially in experimentals where it's both cheaper and more valuable (given that experimentals have a higher accident rate). A parachute would have saved their lives and not cause more injuries on the ground.
I don't think that's accurate.
@wanttaja
 
I'm sure that any airplane is at least a little different. Supposedly a windmilling prop is pretty much equivalent to a flat plate the size of the prop disc, which is a LOT of drag. Having the engine idling is going to give you less drag, or with a big enough engine at the right/wrong airspeed, maybe even some residual thrust.
That's not generally true. A windmilling prop does indeed generate drag, but it isn't as easy as equating to a flat plate of the prop diameter. It's affected by the amount of torque generated (RPM versus how hard it is to turn the the engine). If the crank broke, the thing would spin like a pinwheel and not hardly generate any drag at all. In a controllable pitch prop, you can feel a drag decrease just by moving to course pitch.
 
There’s also the possibility that the prop gets stuck because of internal engine damage (engine rotating assembly locked up). That would have a different effect on drag.
 
If the crank broke, the thing would spin like a pinwheel and not hardly generate any drag at all.
A freewheeling prop (windmilling with no mechanical drag) can generate a significant amount of drag in many cases. The force that turns the prop does not come free, there is drag along with it. That's why maple seeds don't freefall, autogyros can safely descend steeply, and helicopters can autorotate.

Fun learning project: Stick that pinwheel out your car window with the wheel stuck, then unstick it and see if you can't feel a difference.

Nauga,
vectorized
 
Not to mention having a mindset of landing 1/3 down the runway power out and if you need to, slip as aggressively as needed.

Yep, if the engine quits I'm wanting to take my half of the runway from the middle ...
 
seems like some locally based people do not think it’s necessarily engine out
 
From the hole in roof looks like a stall spin?
"Fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible "
Keep drumming this into my son. Let it stall and your just a passenger.
 
I don't think that's accurate.
@wanttaja
In my analyses, I don't think I've seen any experimental amateur-built aircraft accidents where a ballistic chute was involved. This may be because the NTSB may not consider a successful chute activation as an accident. May also reflect a very low installation rate in EABs.

My personal bet is on the latter. Never met an EAB owner who installed one.

Ron Wanttaja
 
This is all speculation but supposedly it lost a door and damaged control surface. This is from Reddit. Take it for what it’s worth
Garbage speculation as the guy that started it first said canopy....which an RV 10 doesn't have.

It happened crosswind to downwind. Flew a normal pattern, absent speed and altitude. Ran out of energy base to final.
 
This is all speculation but supposedly it lost a door and damaged control surface. This is from Reddit. Take it for what it’s worth
The doors are the weakest part of the RV-10. There have been several door loss incidents, one of which was local to me. In that incident, the door hit the horizontal stabilizer hard enough to rack (permanently deform) the aft fuselage. It is entirely possible that a door loss could damage the empennage, but if that happened, you'd probably find the door sitting on a roof, lawn, or road in the vicinity.

For what it is worth, Van's provides a door latch warning system which (like your car door indicator) will indicate a door that isn't properly latched. You still have to install it, see the warning light, etc. Also, there are aftermarket secondary door latches that provide a more robust solution (IMO) than just the standard latches.

I have both the warning system and the secondary latch on my airplane.
 
In my analyses, I don't think I've seen any experimental amateur-built aircraft accidents where a ballistic chute was involved. This may be because the NTSB may not consider a successful chute activation as an accident. May also reflect a very low installation rate in EABs.

My personal bet is on the latter. Never met an EAB owner who installed one.

Ron Wanttaja
I agree they are rarely installed, but my point is that more experimental builders should install them.
 
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